Same problems with this program that were in the first release!

[Apollo43]

Some of you guys make some extremely beautiful routes that I would love to just ride through. But unfortunately, you all have the nasty habit of designing these routes with lots of content that does not come with the original program. That sucks for us novists who don't know how to upgrade, and find content, can't affort a DLS ticket, or don't even know what Kuid is, and frankly, don't have the time to chase that stuff down and deal with all the errors or false errors they sometimes create. Errors that you experts can fix in a flash but confuse the heck out of us novists.

And frankly, why should we spend hours hunting down content anyway? You guys do beatiful work but I challenge you to do it using ONLY the content and assets that is shipped in whatever version of trainz you are working in. Heck, I just bought Trainz 2010 to upgrade from 2006 just to see Murchisan II's Hi Res Routes.

Sure, you could make the argument that these routes wouldn't be so beautiful without the added content. Hogwash. Of coarse you could make them just as beautiful. You guys are artists and you certainly could make a beautiful route with the stock assets. Try it and you'll see.

What guys like me need is a TRAINZ FOR DUMMIES. Same exact program as the current Trainz only without the ability to add or modify assets and content. But then you artists would still use the more flexible versions anyway so that is not the answer.

And while I'm at it, a large part of the problem is Auran's deficiency in not understanding how to develop a patch. If you have read some of the suggested solutions to correcting the problems that can surface when you do a Auran patch you find a long list of things to do including going into your windows task manager. Come on Auran. FINISH THE PATCH. When you get done patching the code, add code in the patch to look for the errors and fix them. The patch is not done if the user has to go fix stuff after doing your patch. Do the patch right and finish the work! And if shuting down the computer right after a user does the patch can create problems then simply don't say the patch is complete until you are actually done patching.

This is a magnificantly beautiful program but after all these years, and all these new releases since the original, the program still has the same annoying problems it has had since day one. And allot of that is because of the ability to add and download and modify assets. But, I understand, Auran makes a lot of money off the DLS so that won't go away.

I just went to the website for KC3 and Clovis 2. Clovis 2 looks beautiful but I don't dare touch it because it has a lot of non-stock assets that I don't have the time to hunt down. If the owner would like to package that route WITH all the assets, I would gladly pay for it.

I am somewhat computer savy, love this program, but unfortunately don't have lots of time to deal with all the issues of added content/assets so I never use them but I will buy routes that come packaged with EVERYTHING I NEED to enjoy the route ERROR FREE and FALSE ERROR FREE. False errors? Get real Auran.

 

[jmeinig]

I know one user (perhaps philskene?) has made a bunch of routes with only TS2010 built-in content. Somebody else may need to confirm this, but I think it is philskene.

 

[Dermmy]

To reply or not to reply? That is the question...

Ok - in for a penny, in for a pound.

Carping whining posts from folks who can't get spoon fed easy straight out of the box beautiful error free routes and feel cheated by their absence frankly make me sick.

My only suggestion is that you move on - Trainz is not for you.

Andy :wave:

 

[aardvark1]

Andy, should I start making popcorn?

Regards,

 

[BLACKWATCH]

We were all novices with Trainz at one point, but it's just a case of learning like you did at school with your A B C.
I didn't encounter Trainz until I was in my 50's, but I soon learned how to read a config file & alter it to get an item working, I have also learned how to reskin things to be more to my liking.
If I can do it, I'm sure most others can learn, it's just a matter of getting off your 'arris & making an effort.

 

[gfisher]

I'm with you on this, Andy. We build routes for our own enjoyment, not his.

 

[lorenw]

Youv'e been a Trainzer since at least 2006 and still haven't learned how to fix or find assets?
Aardvark, by all means please make popcorn. This should be a good one.

 

[philskene]

Hmm

Hi Apollo --

First up, if you are at all serous about Trainz you do need a First Class Ticket.

Secondly, I see that my name has been mentioned in post #2. The routes that I created up to and including TS2010 use mainly built-in content with some additional assets from the Download Station. The total download for any of the routes should be within your 100 MB daily free allowance. There are no assets from third party sites.

You will also find that I use the same general toolkit in all my routes, so once you have one route you will have most of the dependences required by the others.

The situation has changed somewhat with TS12. A lot of the content that came built-in with earlier versions is no longer contained within this latest release. So the downloads for the TS12 versions of my routes are quite larger. The TS12 version of Port Ogden & Northern that I'm working on at the moment, for example, will be about 120 MB.

I see that you are running TS2010. If you want to try one of my routes that has almost no downloads from the Download Station try "IntenCity 1a". It's a small route that follows protypical practices but should not be taken all that seriously and you might find it fun. You will also find sessions for it.

Tell me how you go.

Phil

 

[pware]

I have my feet in both camps here.

When creating routes that will be released on the DLS I only use assets that were present on the distribution DVD or are available on the DLS. I don't use assets that have to be located by trawling through third party sites as much as I often like those assets. I also avoid using assets that contain errors serious enough to stop them from appearing or working correctly (non critical scenery assets can be an exception).

I accept that many Trainz users, certainly in their early stages of using the sim, do not have the confidence or experience to fix faulty assets or to go looking for any missing KUIDs that are not on the DLS. These problems can be very discouraging to all users. I myself have given up and deleted some downloaded routes because I could not find (not even through a Google search) missing KUIDs or could not fix a vital but faulty asset.

I have no objection to DLS route and session builders using non DLS or non original assets but I believe that those builders, as a courtesy, should reveal where those assets can be found. This of course ignores the problem caused by assets located on third party sites that become inactive or just drop off the web, taking their assets with them.

Now for the other foot.

Some of Apollo43's criticisms have been TROLLed over in these forums ad infinitum. His view of how patches work vs how they should work in an ideal world ignores the difficulty (indeed impossibility) of creating patches that will work on an infinite variety of system configurations including faulty original installations. Not even Microsoft with all its resources can get it right - just trawl through their vast knowledge base of fixes to patch errors and other problems, some of which require users to go into command mode (shudder) and type in obscure and ancient command sequences (I really do miss MS-DOS :hehe.

Peter Ware

 

[Apollo43]

To reply or not to reply? That is the question...

Ok - in for a penny, in for a pound.

Carping whining posts from folks who can't get spoon fed easy straight out of the box beautiful error free routes and feel cheated by their absence frankly make me sick.

My only suggestion is that you move on - Trainz is not for you.

Andy :wave:

For the record, I never said I felt cheated. My post was not an attack on anyone except for maybe Auran who I would expect has been in this business for a long enough time to figure out how to build a patch. Guess not though. I did give high compliments to the many route designers including your very fine work. If you are offended by that too bad!

 

[Apollo43]

Youv'e been a Trainzer since at least 2006 and still haven't learned how to fix or find assets?
Aardvark, by all means please make popcorn. This should be a good one.

Actually, I have been involved with Trainz on and off since the very first version. I don't remember when that was, maybe back around 1998? My memory is not that great at my old age but back then I was using DLS stuff and third party assets and it turned out to be one headache after another with Auran coming out with non functional patch afeter patch and that is what has usually led me to lose interest in the program. But yes, I have totally forgotten how to fix assets but I have no interest in taking that route again anyway.

That is why, this time around, I am determined to avoid at all costs anything to do with DLS or third party assets, and I know that means I will not get to enjoy much of the work by many of the artists who design some beautiful routes. I just don't have the time to deal with all that stuff anymore. I get maybe an hour to use Trainz maybe three times a week. That's it. And for those folks who I have seen say in other posts that if you don't have the time, Trainz is not for you, I totally disagree. When you like something very much you don't discard it because you don't have as much time as you like. You just work around the issues that slow you down and enjoy whatever little time you can find for it. That's what I'm trying to do.

I hope you enjoyed your popcorn.

 

[Apollo43]

Hi Apollo --

First up, if you are at all serous about Trainz you do need a First Class Ticket.

Secondly, I see that my name has been mentioned in post #2. The routes that I created up to and including TS2010 use mainly built-in content with some additional assets from the Download Station. The total download for any of the routes should be within your 100 MB daily free allowance. There are no assets from third party sites.

You will also find that I use the same general toolkit in all my routes, so once you have one route you will have most of the dependences required by the others.

The situation has changed somewhat with TS12. A lot of the content that came built-in with earlier versions is no longer contained within this latest release. So the downloads for the TS12 versions of my routes are quite larger. The TS12 version of Port Ogden & Northern that I'm working on at the moment, for example, will be about 120 MB.

I see that you are running TS2010. If you want to try one of my routes that has almost no downloads from the Download Station try "IntenCity 1a". It's a small route that follows protypical practices but should not be taken all that seriously and you might find it fun. You will also find sessions for it.

Tell me how you go.

Phil

Thank you Phil. I look forward to checking out your work in the future. Right now I just restarted with Trainz 2010 after a 4 year layoff so I have to get re-aquainted with it and unfortunately, due to my job, I have very little time per day to make progress. But I do love this program as I had a giant Merklin HO set that my dad and I used to fill the bassement with. I only wish he was around to see this program and what you can do with it. Amazing.

 

[Apollo43]

I have my feet in both camps here.

When creating routes that will be released on the DLS I only use assets that were present on the distribution DVD or are available on the DLS. I don't use assets that have to be located by trawling through third party sites as much as I often like those assets. I also avoid using assets that contain errors serious enough to stop them from appearing or working correctly (non critical scenery assets can be an exception).

I accept that many Trainz users, certainly in their early stages of using the sim, do not have the confidence or experience to fix faulty assets or to go looking for any missing KUIDs that are not on the DLS. These problems can be very discouraging to all users. I myself have given up and deleted some downloaded routes because I could not find (not even through a Google search) missing KUIDs or could not fix a vital but faulty asset.

I have no objection to DLS route and session builders using non DLS or non original assets but I believe that those builders, as a courtesy, should reveal where those assets can be found. This of course ignores the problem caused by assets located on third party sites that become inactive or just drop off the web, taking their assets with them.

Now for the other foot.

Some of Apollo43's criticisms have been TROLLed over in these forums ad infinitum. His view of how patches work vs how they should work in an ideal world ignores the difficulty (indeed impossibility) of creating patches that will work on an infinite variety of system configurations including faulty original installations. Not even Microsoft with all its resources can get it right - just trawl through their vast knowledge base of fixes to patch errors and other problems, some of which require users to go into command mode (shudder) and type in obscure and ancient command sequences (I really do miss MS-DOS :hehe.

Peter Ware

Those were the days! I'm with you Peter, I miss MS-DOS too, but we still use it now and then. There are some posts on the 2010 forum about fixing issues with patches. If you read the long list of stuff needed to deal with these issues it's quite humourous when you consider this program has been out for well over 10 years and they still have patch after patch after patch.

One post explains that the user could corrupt their files if they shut down their PC immediately after their patch finishes. Well, I'm no expert but clearly this sounds to me like obviously the patch is still doing something or the PC is still processing stuff the patch did. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that a simple time routine at the end of the patch before displaying the "Patch complete" notice could easily solve this problem regardless of what operating system it's on.

 

[clam1952]

Some points:

I think a large majority of users initially make routes for themselves, the fact that they share them with others is a bonus and worth remembering before criticising where the items used come from and how easy it is to track them down.
Noted that a bit of help could be provided in the description for those items not on the DLS for those who seem to have difficulty finding things. Personally, I've never had to ask and managed to track most things down relatively easily with Google.

If, like I am, you are making a route close to the prototype, most of what I need doesn't exist on the DLS and not much of it elsewhere so I am making it myself. If I was restricted to built in content I wouldn't be able to make it.

Another point is people would soon get bored with all identical looking routes with the same items appearing over and over again, which is what you might end up with using all built in content. Some might be happy with that, I don't think I would though.

 

[sniper297]

I'm fur it! I'm agin' it!

Personally I agree on the patch programming, I've been playing computer games for 30 years (not continuously, I sleep every other leap year ) and the TS2010 patches were the absolute worst I've ever seen. They WILL work provided your system is clean and the disk is defragged and you don't have 14 million faulty assets installed when you try to patch it and you leave it alone - but the requirement for XP service pack 3 is ludicrous and the refusal to attempt patching after a single aborted patch is nuts. I've seen quite a few patches that check the main executable before installing, and refuse to install if it doesn't match the one they're looking for, but they invariably make a backup of that executable before starting and always at least make a valiant attempt to restore and clean up afterwards if the patch process fails or is aborted. This one is designed so you get one shot at the prize, if you miss you'll have to reinstall before trying again unless you made a manual backup.

Where I disagree is obvious, being a route developer rather than consumer I completely understand why route developers rarely even try to use nothing but built in content. Some of it just don't fit what you're trying to do, some of it just cramps your style - we are trying to create art here, after all.

Another consideration is FPS, I got a built in bridge that's 5700 polys and the route I'm doing needs one every half mile, there's a similar bridge on the DLS that's only 1400 polys which looks just as good - so the choice for the end user is a one time download versus not having to download anything and living with cruddy framerates, which would you rather have?

I limit myself to what is on the DLS and works error free in TS2010 native mode, and lately I'm testing occasionally in TS12 to make sure the end result will work for multiplayer, but it will require downloading some additional content for either version.

And I agree even with an FCT downloading all the dependencies and then having to download the dependencies of those dependencies it missed then having to commit all the assets it failed to automatically commit when it installed them is a PITA, but a PITA we just gotta live with.

 

[sethmcs]

Simple solution....

I hate fixing content. Therefore I build routes primarily for TRS2004 and I don't release them.:hehe:

 

[pware]

As an addundum to my earlier rant, I just downloaded and tried the route "A moment in time" which is a beautifully crafted route, one of the best I have seen - like a Philskene industrial route set in rural England.

I ended up deleting it because I could not find all the third party assets it requires and there was no information provided on where I could find them. I suspect that some of the assets may have been removed from the DLS as some assets by a particular creator are listed as "not available". There was also one vital but faulty asset that I could not fix nor even delete to replace with another.

I note from other threads that others are having similar issues with the route "EK3 PT". Yes, there can be great benefits from using the assets provided by 3rd party sites but this is an example of the frustration.

Peter Ware

 

[Dermmy]

I note from other threads that others are having similar issues with the route "EK3 PT". Yes, there can be great benefits from using the assets provided by 3rd party sites but this is an example of the frustration.

Peter Ware

Hi Peter - a slight correction if I may. Of the thousands of downloads of EK3 and EK3ST (6,104 at the time of this post) exactly one user has had serious issues with downloading content. The issues were nothing to do with the route, the links or the content, but simply someone new to the sim having trouble getting his head around some of the concepts on which obtaining and installing all Trainz content is based. I would point out that that particular user had about as many issues with DLS content as he did with 3rd Party Content. During the course of that one thread at least two (and I think three) other users downloaded the route and content from the same source and got everything installed error free first try, which is by far the experience of the greater majority of downloaders.

Your statement that "others are having similar issues with the route "EK3 PT"." is misleading.

For the entire time that the routes have been available there has been a period of two weeks where links to several items of route content were temporarily unavailable due to one 3rd party site being rebuilt. All route content links are once again active and the result of that 3rd party site re-build is that at the expense of some small inconvenience obtaining content is now actually easier!

There is currently an issue with a second site being re-built which affects content for one session only, but similarly that issue will be resolved shortly.

Every other content issue since release has been due to users missing posted links to available content and all such issues were resolved within hours.

Andy

 

[rjhowie]

I was a total simulator novice but fiddled about and when unsure got help. However I think not knowing what a kuid was or too costly getting a ticket is a bit over the top? It is relatively easy for any newbie to ascertain a kuid and First Class tickets are hardly like buying a car - or indeed a pc to run these things on. Or do pc's come free? Anyone with a computer should be able to pay the infinitesmal sum for download tickets unless they are children. At the same time i think that where those who immediately got out the coshes were a bit too quick to be sick and irate from wherever! Sigh and groan by all means but knee-jerking? Nah.

As for the purpose in building routes that is initially so we can enjoy what we build but if solely for personal enjoyment why bother uploading them or even have a DLS?! We could all spend umpteen hours building something and selfishly sit gloating over our wonderful achievement but not for me that's too selfish. I spent 3 years building the City of Glasgow former tramway over 250 odd boards and will eventually get it up on the DLS for others to enjoy what Glasgow once possessed until 1962. Now I am doing the rail system in Ulster a frequent holiday place for me. Just to do these for my own singular pleasure is not part of my makeup. There are some routine things that puzzle me even after all this time not being techy but reasonable people tend to be helpful but I must say I am not as elementary as the thread starter either.

 

[JCitron]

In some ways I can see why the OP has issues with the DLS and content. I suppose he just likes to run trains in a simulator. Yet Trainz is a lot different than that. For Trainz, which to me is more like a model railroad environment, requires the fiddling and kitbashing to make things work the way we want; not always, but usually.

This aspect, though frustrating for the newcomer is something that a seasoned model railroad is accustomed to. When I had a plastic, wood and plaster N-Scale model railroad, I kitbashed bridges, buildings, and even cut track to suit the plan I was using. I had taken a plan from Atlas' Nine N-Scale Plans, and customized it. Instead of using the fixed track all over, I substituted this with flex-track. The yard was a bit anemic and required an extra track or two to keep freight cars there and still run around.

Anyway this is much like a Trainz route. I've downloaded many routes from many creators. Many times I'll go into Surveyor and customize them. Remove any content I can't find right off if I feel like doing that, or go back and go on an asset hunt. In the end, after changing track, or signals, because I like something different (not better), and replacing or finding the content, I have something I can run.

So to the OP. Unless you want something that's really great, but limited pretty much to what you have installed, stick with the built-in routes. If not, poke around, change things to suit your needs, and try the other people's routes.

John