Same problems with this program that were in the first release!
- Thread starter Apollo43
- Start date
As I said in my earlier post, I have my feet in both camps on this issue. I find myself agreeing with much of what has been said in this thread, by both sides.
With routes and sessions I create myself for uploading to the DLS I take care to ensure that I do not use 3rd party or faulty vital assets in my products because I simply do not want to pass onto others the frustrating experiences that I have had in locating and fixing some of those assets. That is, to me, the one negative of the DLS system where an uploaded route or session does not contain any of the fixes you may have made to your selected assets so those fixes are not passed on when your route/session is downloaded by others. A faulty asset on the DLS remains faulty until, if ever, the original author updates it. I applauded Auran/N3Vs recent move to make all faulty DLS assets available for repair by the Trainz community despite the anger this move created in some quarters.
I am not a "kit basher" but I do appreciate that others get a lot of enjoyment from "kit bashing". I do not enjoy spending a lot of time and effort in tracking down missing 3rd part assets or in trying to fix major errors in critical assets - some of which can only be fixed by the original creator. While I do play around with some downloaded routes by swapping some of the supplied assets I basically just want to get the enjoyment out of running the sim. I got more than enough frustration and banging my head into a brick wall at work, I came home to use Trainz for therapy not more frustration.
I appreciate the value of 3rd part sites supplying assets, both freeware and payware and especially applaud Mcguirel for putting his retired payware M: Ultra trees and shrubs onto the DLS - but I would not expect all payware creators to follow his fine example.
Cheers
Peter Ware
With routes and sessions I create myself for uploading to the DLS I take care to ensure that I do not use 3rd party or faulty vital assets in my products because I simply do not want to pass onto others the frustrating experiences that I have had in locating and fixing some of those assets. That is, to me, the one negative of the DLS system where an uploaded route or session does not contain any of the fixes you may have made to your selected assets so those fixes are not passed on when your route/session is downloaded by others. A faulty asset on the DLS remains faulty until, if ever, the original author updates it. I applauded Auran/N3Vs recent move to make all faulty DLS assets available for repair by the Trainz community despite the anger this move created in some quarters.
I am not a "kit basher" but I do appreciate that others get a lot of enjoyment from "kit bashing". I do not enjoy spending a lot of time and effort in tracking down missing 3rd part assets or in trying to fix major errors in critical assets - some of which can only be fixed by the original creator. While I do play around with some downloaded routes by swapping some of the supplied assets I basically just want to get the enjoyment out of running the sim. I got more than enough frustration and banging my head into a brick wall at work, I came home to use Trainz for therapy not more frustration.
I appreciate the value of 3rd part sites supplying assets, both freeware and payware and especially applaud Mcguirel for putting his retired payware M: Ultra trees and shrubs onto the DLS - but I would not expect all payware creators to follow his fine example.
CheersPeter Ware
jointedrail
Official N3V DLC Partners
TRS takes time. If you don't have it, then just stick with the built-in stuff and you will be ok. These guys create these masterpieces for free and spend hundreds of hours doing so. Don't expect them to skimp on quality just because you are too lazy to do some homework or don't have the time. Be glad they are even doing it. Simple solution to your problem would be to enjoy the hundreds of routes on the DLS which don't require any effort. I wish I had a paintbrush I could stick in the can once and it would paint the entire house for me. That's obviously not going to happen, so I guess I will have to take the time and put some effort fourth and do it myself.
Well said Andy. And thanks to all the creators who produce a majority of all this fantastic content for free.
Mike
Well said Andy. And thanks to all the creators who produce a majority of all this fantastic content for free.
Mike
Forest_Runner
Well-known member
I don't get how the topic fits in with the subject heading. Problems between seat and keyboard DO NOT constitute a problem with the program.
It's also bad form to whine about something that is FREE!
It's also bad form to whine about something that is FREE!
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Well I suppose that the original poster was complaining about the fact that the issues of faulty and missing assets have been with us since the start of the DLS - a problem that exists on the "other side of the keyboard" from the seat. While my memory does not reliably stretch back that far it is a plausible and therefore valid point.
I can think of many things that are free but are still deserving of criticism but I agree that it is not good form to criticize the efforts of the many talented people that provide their creations free for us all to enjoy. This, I do not think, was the intent of the original post.
Peter Ware
ex-railwayman
New member
This is an old chestnut again that has been brought up before on the forum, and I understand the OP's point of view, to which he is perfectly entitled. We used to have a thread on this forum which named all the routes that have been created using only built-in assets, however, as we all now seem to have upgraded to the newer Trainz versions, TRS2010 and TS12, I can only imagine that as a lot of default content has been modified, or not included in the core game since the days of TRS2004 and 06, that a lot of layouts may not be useable to everyone anymore, I don't think there is as much content from BlueSkyInteractive and CAB in my TS12 as to the previous versions, for example.
It has always been a mute point as to the chasing down of 'missing assets' on various layouts, some folks flatly refuse to do it, others, like me, will have a go, and to be fair, whenever you visit 3rd party websites you find all manner of things that you haven't seen before and promptly acquire lots of other assets to enhance our layouts, which is half the fun of going on these 'hunt the kuid' games :hehe:.
It has been commented on before that many creators should/probably include a Read Me document containing a list of websites that hold the 3rd party assets for their routes, but, as these are available to the community for years and years, it's already happened where websites have closed down and the route creator has been e-mailed/PM'd requesting information as to where the missing assets for their routes can now be located, which I would think can be very time consuming and takes away a lot of their time, which could be better spent doing other things, and if the 3rd party site is foreign, it could take weeks tracking down relevant Trainz members of that country to find out what is going on.
I must publicly thank Dermmy, amongst a few others, for his efforts on his personal website to give links and .cdps directly to his followers to be able to download a vast amount of route content, for all of the layouts he has done currently, and over the last few years, with the help of the content creators from around the world who have given him permission to do so, which if not, would make his routes unattractive and probably not operable if we didn't have everything that was needed to run them effectively, if only every route creator could have done this from the year dot it would have been wonderful. However, on the other side of the coin, route creators will argue that they have made the route for themselves, and have only offered it up to the community out of reverance and if we want it to run properly it is up to the end user to go and find the missing items, so, it's up to you whether you attempt to track everything down, or, just ignore that route.
Unfortunately, you cannot please everybody all of the time, and I'm sure this debate will muddle on in the future of Trainz.
Cheerz. ex-railwayman.
It has always been a mute point as to the chasing down of 'missing assets' on various layouts, some folks flatly refuse to do it, others, like me, will have a go, and to be fair, whenever you visit 3rd party websites you find all manner of things that you haven't seen before and promptly acquire lots of other assets to enhance our layouts, which is half the fun of going on these 'hunt the kuid' games :hehe:.
It has been commented on before that many creators should/probably include a Read Me document containing a list of websites that hold the 3rd party assets for their routes, but, as these are available to the community for years and years, it's already happened where websites have closed down and the route creator has been e-mailed/PM'd requesting information as to where the missing assets for their routes can now be located, which I would think can be very time consuming and takes away a lot of their time, which could be better spent doing other things, and if the 3rd party site is foreign, it could take weeks tracking down relevant Trainz members of that country to find out what is going on.
I must publicly thank Dermmy, amongst a few others, for his efforts on his personal website to give links and .cdps directly to his followers to be able to download a vast amount of route content, for all of the layouts he has done currently, and over the last few years, with the help of the content creators from around the world who have given him permission to do so, which if not, would make his routes unattractive and probably not operable if we didn't have everything that was needed to run them effectively, if only every route creator could have done this from the year dot it would have been wonderful. However, on the other side of the coin, route creators will argue that they have made the route for themselves, and have only offered it up to the community out of reverance and if we want it to run properly it is up to the end user to go and find the missing items, so, it's up to you whether you attempt to track everything down, or, just ignore that route.
Unfortunately, you cannot please everybody all of the time, and I'm sure this debate will muddle on in the future of Trainz.
Cheerz. ex-railwayman.
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Forest_Runner
Well-known member
Origins of DLS policy or destination process of uploads is still not a problem with the program as such. The subject title is misleading in comparison to disussed topic.
My initial reference of seat and keyboard may have sounded a bit ordinary. The reference was directed towards the poster's subjective view of non-DLS items included in routes (apologies Apollo if interpreted as offensive). This too, hardly consitutes a problem with the program.
Isn't there always railworks for those folks? Oh wait you have to buy all you're really good content or keep driving the same old tired built-in routes.
My suggestion for people like the original poster, build your own route. Auran/N3V gave you that ability, exercise it.
They have the right to build their own route just like they have the right to remain silent, unfortunately most people don't have the ability to do either…
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Personally I agree on the patch programming, I've been playing computer games for 30 years (not continuously, I sleep every other leap year) and the TS2010 patches were the absolute worst I've ever seen. They WILL work provided your system is clean and the disk is defragged and you don't have 14 million faulty assets installed when you try to patch it and you leave it alone - but the requirement for XP service pack 3 is ludicrous and the refusal to attempt patching after a single aborted patch is nuts. I've seen quite a few patches that check the main executable before installing, and refuse to install if it doesn't match the one they're looking for, but they invariably make a backup of that executable before starting and always at least make a valiant attempt to restore and clean up afterwards if the patch process fails or is aborted. This one is designed so you get one shot at the prize, if you miss you'll have to reinstall before trying again unless you made a manual backup.
Where I disagree is obvious, being a route developer rather than consumer I completely understand why route developers rarely even try to use nothing but built in content. Some of it just don't fit what you're trying to do, some of it just cramps your style - we are trying to create art here, after all.
Another consideration is FPS, I got a built in bridge that's 5700 polys and the route I'm doing needs one every half mile, there's a similar bridge on the DLS that's only 1400 polys which looks just as good - so the choice for the end user is a one time download versus not having to download anything and living with cruddy framerates, which would you rather have?
I limit myself to what is on the DLS and works error free in TS2010 native mode, and lately I'm testing occasionally in TS12 to make sure the end result will work for multiplayer, but it will require downloading some additional content for either version.
And I agree even with an FCT downloading all the dependencies and then having to download the dependencies of those dependencies it missed then having to commit all the assets it failed to automatically commit when it installed them is a PITA, but a PITA we just gotta live with.
I never had a problem with any of the 2010 patches so I guess I must be living the good life.
I suggest you head straight to Las Vegas with luck like that!! :hehe:
amtrakfoamer
New member
here's the thing
If you are unhappy with this system you can post it just don't go in to this big Rant.:hehe: I like the idea for Trainz for dummies
If you are unhappy with this system you can post it just don't go in to this big Rant.:hehe: I like the idea for Trainz for dummiesmasterowner
The One and Only
As I have said before the problem stems from Auran/NV3's lack of in house content creation...
Forest_Runner
Well-known member
Relevance??? Problem??? Waltzing in after a decade of a well established program/sim and making a remark like that is just clueless.
As has been said 2,512,736 times, Auran/NV3 is about the game engine and program functionality/features... not content creation for the sim. This general direction undertaken is what was intended upfront from the Trainz days... so mission more or less accomplished. In fact, you'll find they've actually superseded expectations from that first Trainz release.
Well it seems that overnight, from the perspective of my time zone, the popcorn has been reheated.
You are correct in the same sense that you can't blame web design software for all the badly designed web pages that exist. The errors that are present in DLS assets are not the fault of the Trainz program(s) but have a variety of causes including changing design standards (what was acceptable in earlier versions is not acceptable now) and poor quality control by some creators (e.g. checking that all texture files/attachment points are present, or even running the config.txt file through a spell checker).
But my main gripe (not against you Forest_Runner) that has developed as a result of this thread is that to offer any criticism of the free content on the DLS is considered to be worse than standing up during the Sunday sermon and shouting "LIAR" at the pulpit (incidentally, that is on my "bucket list").
Of course I appreciate the time and effort that goes into creating assets and the generosity of the creators in giving away their work for free. Yes, I have created routes, sessions and even some HTML assets and placed them onto the DLS for free. Yes, I have also attempted to create scenery assets (using GMax and more recently Blender) and have so far not managed to get beyond the basics in either - despite the assistance of expensive reference books. I am even finding TransDEM to be a challenge. I purchased my first computer back in 1977, created my first web page (using notepad) back in 1995 and have edited and co-authored 9 textbooks on computing and information systems so I am not a novice at using software or hardware.
But constructive criticism of "free stuff" should not be considered a heresy or attract the "if you don't like it go elsewhere" responses that seem to have become the standard in these forums. I don't believe that all designers have such thin skins that they would be offended by feedback, especially constructive feedback. My textbook publisher has always submitted the manuscripts to reviewers for comments - while a few reviews were "off the planet" many were helpful and were used to improve the final product. And yes, I have attempted to contact some asset creators about problems with their products but have never received a response - and I'm not criticizing them for that.
Many threads in these forums have covered and recovered these issues - "the DLS is broken", "too many faulty assets", "Auran have changed the rules", "missing KUIDs", etc. When you have a sim that is so dependent on the goodwill, blood, sweat and tears of those who are passionate about it then there will always be arguments, heated debates and flames.
Despite these problems I would still rather have the current system of content available from the DLS and 3rd party sites than go the way of Apple where there is only one source for all content.
Time to re-order a few more 50kg bags of popcorn.
Peter Ware
You are correct in the same sense that you can't blame web design software for all the badly designed web pages that exist. The errors that are present in DLS assets are not the fault of the Trainz program(s) but have a variety of causes including changing design standards (what was acceptable in earlier versions is not acceptable now) and poor quality control by some creators (e.g. checking that all texture files/attachment points are present, or even running the config.txt file through a spell checker).
But my main gripe (not against you Forest_Runner) that has developed as a result of this thread is that to offer any criticism of the free content on the DLS is considered to be worse than standing up during the Sunday sermon and shouting "LIAR" at the pulpit (incidentally, that is on my "bucket list").
Of course I appreciate the time and effort that goes into creating assets and the generosity of the creators in giving away their work for free. Yes, I have created routes, sessions and even some HTML assets and placed them onto the DLS for free. Yes, I have also attempted to create scenery assets (using GMax and more recently Blender) and have so far not managed to get beyond the basics in either - despite the assistance of expensive reference books. I am even finding TransDEM to be a challenge. I purchased my first computer back in 1977, created my first web page (using notepad) back in 1995 and have edited and co-authored 9 textbooks on computing and information systems so I am not a novice at using software or hardware.
But constructive criticism of "free stuff" should not be considered a heresy or attract the "if you don't like it go elsewhere" responses that seem to have become the standard in these forums. I don't believe that all designers have such thin skins that they would be offended by feedback, especially constructive feedback. My textbook publisher has always submitted the manuscripts to reviewers for comments - while a few reviews were "off the planet" many were helpful and were used to improve the final product. And yes, I have attempted to contact some asset creators about problems with their products but have never received a response - and I'm not criticizing them for that.
Many threads in these forums have covered and recovered these issues - "the DLS is broken", "too many faulty assets", "Auran have changed the rules", "missing KUIDs", etc. When you have a sim that is so dependent on the goodwill, blood, sweat and tears of those who are passionate about it then there will always be arguments, heated debates and flames.
Despite these problems I would still rather have the current system of content available from the DLS and 3rd party sites than go the way of Apple where there is only one source for all content.
Time to re-order a few more 50kg bags of popcorn.
Peter Ware
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