Problems with Water in TRS22 and how I fixed it.

[MSGSapper]

I have been upgrading one of my routes and noticed several issues when it was loaded into Surveyor in the current PC build for TRS22 (build 132284):

1. The water was flickering everywhere.

2. Some parts of the ground had water where I never placed it before, and it looked different than the water I was using.

3. Changing the evironmental water type in Surveyor made no difference in the appearance of the water on the route.

4. I had seen this a few years back for the same route and thought I had fixed it, but the problems re-appeared again.

I checked the forum on this issue and saw a number of posts dealing with those problems. I decided to do some tests of my own and I found that in addition to the Water type I had chosen in the route environment settings, there were three water effect layers present that I had never added myself nor seen until I went looking for them. Those conflicting effect layers were what was causing all the problems I was seeing.

This route has been around for some time, and I have upgraded it from one version of Trainz to another. Since I did not knowingly add those effect layers myself, I can only surmise that when the route was loaded into a new version of Trainz and then saved, it was Trainz somehow converting and adding those effect layers from the older water versions.

How I fixed this issue. The only way I could eliminate all the problems once and for all was to delete all three water-effect layers and then once again re-apply water to the parts of the route that needed it. Tedious yes, but it did solve all the issues.

BTW I was not happy with the current environmental water choices available, so after doing some research and seeing how those were done, I ended up creating a new build 4.7 one that I am in the process of uploading in parts to the DLS. My new <kuid:439337:120828> SAP_Running_Water environmental water type should be available in a few days. It has a running/moving water look that I think you all will like.

Bob

 

[MSGSapper]

Another piece of the puzzle of where the effects layers came from happened after I posted here this morning. I used "Edit in Suyveyor 2" on another route to copy and paste into the route I am upgrading that I talk about in my original post above. After I did that the water went crazy. I ran some tests and without a doubt that copy and paste added the water effects layers from the route I was copying from to the one I am working on that I mentioned in my original post above. I did not however select any water of any type for copy from the other route but it still was pasted to my route I am working on. To fix this I had to delete the effects layers once again to get things back to where they were before I copy and pasted.

A cautionary message here: Be aware that more then you think is being copied and pasted from one route to another when you using Surveyor 2.

Bob

 

[pware]

The "flickering" is caused by the water effect layer and the terrain height both being at the same height. Raise or lower one of the other to remove the flicker.

When you create a new route in Trainz Plus or TRS22PE (I don't have TRS22 standard so I cannot confirm there) a water effect layer is automatically added.

Deleting an unwanted water layer from the layers palette, as you noted, is the quickest and easiest solution.

On the plus side water effect layers give you options - different colours and surface effects for each layer. With the old water "object" you were stuck with just one water colour and one surface effect throughout the entire route - so oceans and ponds had exactly the same appearance.. I have eliminated all the old water objects from my routes and now use water effect layers exclusively - but that is my preference.

When painting or pasting with the Surveyor 2.0 Scrapbook, any water effect layer(s) in the scrapbook will also be painted/pasted into the area covered by the brush. The Surveyor 2.0 scrapbook allows you to set what is copied and pasted so you can eliminate or include effect layers, terrain heights, spines, etc from the copy and paste process.

See the Trainz Wiki at How_to_Use_S20_Tools#Scrapbook_Data

 

[MSGSapper]

The "flickering" is caused by the water effect layer and the terrain height both being at the same height. Raise or lower one of the other to remove the flicker.

Acutally I didn't find that to be the case in my testing in TRS22. The height didn't seem to make a difference at all as I raised and lowered water but saw no change in the flickering. The only thing I found that worked was deleting the water effects layers which solved the flickering problem instantly. Now having said that, keep in mind in my case that when I started I saw three different water effect layers were present and they seemed to differ from the water type set in the route environment settings.

I am not sure how the route water environment setting works in conjunction with the water effect layers, as I don't seem much documentation regarding interaction, but there does seem to be some conflict there between the two.

Do you have documentation about this interaction?

Bob

 

[pware]

Do you have documentation about this interaction?

The Environmental Settings have absolutely no effect on Water Effect layers. The layer properties are set when the layer is created.

See How_to_Use_S20_Tools#Edit_Effect_Layers - for creating and editing a Water Effect Layer.

 

[MSGSapper]

The Environmental Settings have absolutely no effect on Water Effect layers. The layer properties are set when the layer is created.

See How_to_Use_S20_Tools#Edit_Effect_Layers - for creating and editing a Water Effect Layer.

Thanks! That link was very helpful.

The side note in the link page saying "will be automatically added at an altitude of 0m (the Default Value ) when you create a new Route" would be an issue if a layer was added without your knowledge to your route, as it was in my case, and there are low points in the terrain that are below the default zero altitude of water effect layer. That would explain why I was seeing water on parts of my route where I had never placed it before. BTW as I observed on my route, they do mean layer here, as that effect layer appears to be everywhere on your route at that altitude unless you change the "Default Value" setting for that effect layer. If that is not the case, then that does not explain what I saw happening on my route. Do you have any insights on this?

I am now beginning to understand what happened and why. First it is import to reiterate that at no time have I ever added knowingly water effect layers to either of my two current routes, so I am not sure how they got there in the first place although in the case of the New England Coastal, which is what I am working on now, it had a major negative impact and I found where those water effect layers came from.

The water effect "contamination" appears to have been spread to my New England Coastal 1950s Expanded TRS22 route when I did a Surveyor 2.0 copy and paste from my Wilsons Mills & Mount Olive Expanded TRS22 PBR route to the New England route. The water effect apparently is hidden below the surface of everything and when I copied items and textures from the Wilsons Mill & Mount Olive route the effect layers came along for the ride without my knowledge.

I verified this finding in a test on copying and pasting from Wilsons Mills & Mount Olive to a blank test route that had no effect layers of any kind. This also helps to explain the flickering issue. If the environmental water is at the same altitude as the water effect layer, as it was here, flickering is going to happen as the effect layers clashes. I can't say that with 100% certainty, but eliminating the water effect layer(s) did immediately get rid of the flickering and left the environmental water type.

I understand from the link you provided water effect layers a bit better now, but still am curious about the legacy environmental water setting and what its impact on the route is. Is it just a default if no water effect layer is present or used?

While I can see their value, I just like to keep things simple, so will be deleting any water effect layers from my route, and just using the water in the environmental setting.

BTW the whole purpose of this thread is to pass on what I have learned and experienced to others facing these water problems, as I have already solved the issue for myself. It also allows fine people like you to add your insights and knowledge on this issue which helps my and others understanding of what is happening and why.

Thanks for the tips/insights!

Bob