Need help with understanding signalling.

[Mick_Berg]

@Mick , In Surveyor, click the query tool, (?), then click on an engine and the window that pops up has a Priority level for your engines. Just click on the number to change it.


The happy route builder,
Rick

Thanks, but what I meant was, how will changing priority help with signalling problems. The trains in my route all have equal priority, i.e. they all need to get where they are going as soon as possible!
EDIT - Believe it or not I actually read the manual and found out what priority means. Seems to me it isn't priority at all, its more like "preference". I'm not going to get into it though, I'm going to wait for TC3's improved signalling.
Thanks,
Mick Berg.

 

[ess1]

TC3 ... the pancea for all

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

The happy route builder,
Rick

Rick

That's interesting. The setup there is almost exactly what I use for passing loops too, but with one important difference.

Assuming a US layout, I make X a 2-headed signal like the default USA-02.

I also include A,B,C,D and they are all the 1-headed USA-04 (facing towards the trains as they exit either branch of the loops). I can't say if A,B,C,D are necessary or not, but I add them because it looks like you're controlling the junction from every possible angle of approach.

The difference with my understanding of signalling is the signals at Z. I was told (I read somewhere) never to put any "hard" signal at Z . By "hard", I mean a signal capable of showing a stop aspect. USA02 and 04 are both hard stop signals.

The reason is that if you are running trains in both directions, 2 trains travelling towards each other will eventually be permitted to enter opposite ends of the same single track between loops. If one of them has been stopped by the Z signal, you will have a stalemate (or worse).

You can only put signals at Z if they are of the permissive type. These signals simply relay the status of the next signal further down the line and are informational only. I don't think they can stop a train. USA-05 is an example of a permissive.

If there are no signals, or only permissives at Z, then the blocks (which are really defined by the junctions) are controlled only by the signals at X (and possibly at A,B,C,D). This setup of bi-directional passing loops has worked well for me, apart from the artificial hiccups like high-speed SPADs or too many trains for the AI to compute.

If you want to try hard signals at Z, I'd be interested to know how it goes over an extended period of running time, just to see if that theory of stalemates is right.

~ D

 

[steamdrivre]

Hi Dino,
I am using 'hard' signals at ALL my junctions and, I have found that you are right about an eventual stale mate. It does happen and, I am running my trains in opposite directions, too, btw.
I will say that this set up has worked better then anything I've found so far, though.
Which brings me back to experimenting again...

Hey, does anybody know why or what it means when a signal will start flashing when placed in Surveyor???
I'm using 'stop' and 'go' signals only (hard) and sometimes when I place one it will flash red to green to red to green over and over again. Other times they will either be red or green only.

Thanks,

 

[ess1]

Flashing Siignals

This will occur (in surveyor at least) if you have a loco on the line.
With U.K. branch/feather signals this is a good way to check their operation.
Don't know about in driver but I have found signals facing the opposite way to go "on/off".

Sorry if I have misunderstood your question. Grandmother and "sucking eggs" was not on my mind

 

[steamdrivre]

I decided to remove all signals and try something Dino has said and take it literally,
"Auran uses the track BETWEEN switches as signaled blocks." Well, it isn't really a direct quote but, I'm experimenting with this theory as I'm typing and things look good so far.
I am NOT signaling any switches but ONLY the track between them. My signals are placed at the Xs and Zs only.

 

[steamdrivre]

This is it!!! The secret of Auran's signaling is simply straight forward signaling of sections of track! Why try to hard code a complicated signaling system??? Why not keep it as simple as possible???
Don't try to signal switches, don't try to signal junctions, just signal sections of track, ONLY.
Now, if a switch falls within your section of signaled track, then you'll most likely have to move the signal either forward or backward from the switch point but, always keep in mind that you're doing nothing more then signaling sections of track, ONLY.
It works... That's how they did it.

One happy route builder, now. LOL
Rick

 

[Mick_Berg]

This is it!!! The secret of Auran's signaling is simply straight forward signaling of sections of track! Why try to hard code a complicated signaling system??? Why not keep it as simple as possible???
Don't try to signal switches, don't try to signal junctions, just signal sections of track, ONLY.
Now, if a switch falls within your section of signaled track, then you'll most likely have to move the signal either forward or backward from the switch point but, always keep in mind that you're doing nothing more then signaling sections of track, ONLY.
It works... That's how they did it.

One happy route builder, now. LOL
Rick

Your discovery sounds very interesting, but I don't really understand what you are saying. Would you explain it at "Idiot's Guide" level please?
Mick Berg.
(who said he would ignore signalling until TC3 comes out....)

 

[steamdrivre]

Hi Mick,
Stop thinking of how to signal a layout. Erase everything you ever knew or read about signaling. Forget everything!
Now, all Auran did was let us signal one section of track. This piece of track may be 3 miles long or 10 miles long. SO WHAT! It doesn't matter, just plop one signal down and you have what Auran calls a block. It's that simple. I'm not kiddin'. (It's really two blocks with one signal, the track before the signal and the track after the signal would be two blocks.)
Take this 3 miles of track and plop 3 signals down and you now have 4 blocks.
That's all there is to it, believe it or not. Just start plopping blocks down and forget about signaling switches and junctions, they'll take care of themselves although you may have to move a signal, as I've mentioned above, to make your block work.
I can't believe how simple all this really was.

I now have 5 AI trains running on a 3 mile route in all directions and haven't had a single issue once I removed everything I know about signaling from my mind and started plopping down blocks. Two signals equal three blocks.

To help this matter a little better, forget the word signal, it is misleading. Use the word light. Put lights down to make blocks.

Is this any better?

It's so simple that we all are trying to make it complicated because we know too much about it. They did not make this complicated. They kept it simple.
Keep in mind that this is just a game and not a simulator so they made it as simple as they could.

Rick

 

[ess1]

Thank you all for this most insight into Auran's er... thinking.

Can't wait to get back to U.K. to try this out. The route I mentioned (Restformal Castle) has very long single line workings with stations as single platform passing point.

 

[steamdrivre]

That route, ess1, will be as easy as pie.

To help the others, just start at one end then plop a light every so often on a section of track till you get to the other end. Then go ahead and test it if you want too. Now, turn around and start plopping lights from the other end.

That's all I did with the route I've been talking about in the above posts.

Yup, it's that easy.

Notice how I didn't use any train terminology in this post?

If Auran didn't code a signaling system into the game then there isn't one there to worry about.
It's more like traffic lights on a road. They allowed us to plop lights on sections of track that turn red, yellow, and green is all it is.

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

Rick

I too don't completely understand what you're saying. On the one hand you seem to be saying signals are nothing more than eye candy, but if that was true you would not have the stalemates we talked about before. After all, the tracks and junctions haven't changed, only the positions and number of signals, so they must have some real effect.

Can you re-draw your nice diagram to show us exactly how you would now 'signal' it using the minimum number of lights to make it work.

I'd also still like to know what happened when you made it like in your previous diagram, but with the signals at the Z's removed.

Deane

 

[Ian_Coleman]

Re Signals

There is one thing I can't get sorted out, and that is the correct signalling for a double track which has a double track branching off to the left (or the right for that matter!).
I'm sick of seeing two trains arriving at the junction at the same time so that one train passes through the other! I t spoils things completely for me.
Any suggestions please?

Ian

 

[steamdrivre]

I'll try to continue to help and believe it or not, the signals are almost eye candy, difference is that Auran allowed them to work as lights, stopping a train on red and allowing it to go on green, like a traffic light.

I suggest you throw together a two or three board layout with nothing on it but a straight piece of track with a couple of sidings for 'confusion' then start two trains running in opposite directions and watch what happens THEN start at one end by placing your lights on sections of track and watch in amazement how things work out. You may not even have to place lights going in the other direction.
If or when a stalemate happens, just slide the light into the proper place to prevent the stalemate, always keeping in mind that you're not 'signaling' anything. Your just setting up areas so trains don't run into each other.

In my above diagram, the Zs are no longer used and might be replaced with Xs instead. (Ya gotta think about this sentence to understand it, now.)
All of the lights at, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, J, k, L, and M shouldn't necessarily be used. You might only need one or two of them is all. Your layout will dictate what you'll need.
So far none of my sidings have all the lights in all the 'corners' on this route of mine.

If you can erase any 'signaling' ideas out of your heads and think about setting up lights on stretches of track to keep trains from running into each other, then you got it.


Here's another thought process that might help that hit me;
There are sections of track that I don't want two trains to be in at the same time sooooooo, I put a light in to stop a second train from entering that section until the other train leaves it. And, that's all there is to it. LOL
Here's another sentence that might help;
All you're doing is setting up sections of track that you don't want two trains in at the same time by using 'stop' lights. Does that help any???

It'll probably hit you like a ton of bricks, like it did me, when that light bulb above your head starts to shine... LOL

Rick

P. S. Will somebody else please try this to help me explain this to everybody else. LOLOLOL I can't seem to get it across to everyone. It's so incredibly simple.

 

[Euphod]

The only place a signal is useful in Trainz is when it is placed on branches of track that are about to become one track. There is no need to signal the opposite direction; when a train is approaching a switch that changes the current single line into a double line or more, the train will take one track or another. I only place signals where tracks are converging (wherever two or more tracks is about to become one).

 

[steamdrivre]

There ya go, Euphod, now that's simple.
If you don't want two trains in the same pace at the same time, put up a light.

Thanks,
rick

 

[danny5]

Signaling

Varistek I have read this hole thread and they for got about what you having problem with. I thank that if you take your loops and break them up into starter spline putting a signal at end of each spline then it should work. Try this and let me know? I tried this on a blank board laid track about every 10 squad's put a signal at each spline put a track mark at the end put two locos on one at signal 1 of 5 loco 2 at signal 3.went to driver command set loco 1 to track mark the loco 2 to wait 30 seconds drive to track. saved went to driver loco started off (signal 1 was yellow 2 was red )as loco 1 approached S-2 loco 2 started off and signal 2 changed to yellow and so. I also tried with a track from one end of the board to the other some set up nether loco would move.


Danny5

 

[mpa54]

Well the way I understand signaling is Green means GO, Yellow means Slow, and Red means Stop!

But seriously it depends on what type of signals you are using if they are American I could pull up some diagrams for you, but if they are British well I draw a blank.

Regards,

Brad

 

[ess1]

Well the way I understand signaling is Green means GO, Yellow means Slow, and Red means Stop!

But seriously it depends on what type of signals you are using if they are American I could pull up some diagrams for you, but if they are British well I draw a blank.

Regards,

Brad

Ditto with British semaphores. But then, they are "lights" are they not

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

Well I give up steamdrivre. I asked for a diagram because all those words (apart from Euphod's) were not doing it for me, but I got no diagram. Odd thing is, I already know what works, but I still can't figure what system you think works. Must be losing it in my old age.
:hehe: