MANY ERRORS ON ROUTE

[boleyd]

I have spent the entire day up until now fixing missing switch stands, roads that defy erasure since they belong to parents , PBR black streaks, selection circles that do nothing, and others that I cannot remember. I suspect that the author used an older, more reliable version, of Trainz. Plus the route used to work before the change to "22".

The poor quality control could be better tolerated if the vendor was fixing their updating processes. But, instead they move forward seeking revenue from customers searching for better graphics programs. I will finish out today's trainzing, fixing a route that once worked.

N3V seems to have no concern about the time customers spend fixing problems that clearly stem from updates. They rely on the wide acceptance of the product as a great tool for creating and using virtual railroads. I'll admit to my dedication to Trainz. It is too late in-life to change, so I am stuck with the vendor's product and its quality control ( assuming that such a thing exists).

A company that relies on customer loyalty as a substitution for quality, is in dangerous territory.

 

[JCitron]

This sounds like a layer issue. What's so difficult with putting some kind of indicator on the screen somewhere to show what layer we're working in? Surveyor 2.0 has the pallets with Layers among them but if that pallet is hidden, we're back to the same issue all over again.

I do agree with you on the QC. It's more fun making new stuff as I said before instead of fixing and updating what we've already got.

 

[boleyd]

It is also more profitable. Since I really like this route I'll just keep debugging.

Agree on layers. As a route user they are a pain.

 

[KotangaGirl]

Plus the route used to work before the change to "22".

How many times have I been reading that just lately. Like many Trainz folk I've gone back to working in TANE rather than have my hard work endlessly broken by 'updates' that are no such thing.

 

[dangavel]

I've never been a fan of layers, there are times when I've started using them, but because its so hard to tell which layer one is working in, I found it more time consuming and I was more likely to make catastrophic mistakes so I've stopped bothering. As for broken routes, its sad to see work that took years to create rendered inoperable due to updates. its inevitable in some ways but , it could be made easier if NV3 avoided updating assets with the dreaded :1, : 2 etc ending and forced creators to make new versions so at least the older items would still be available . The worst is when textures go missing as , depending on the build one is using, its not always possible to substitute replacements and it can take forever to identify and replace them if the bulk replacement tool is acting up.

 

[JCitron]

I've learned over the years that backups are our best friend. Prior to doing any route editing, I make a backup. Should there be something I can't recover from, I go back to my previous version. I may lose my current work, but not everything.

How many times have I been reading that just lately. Like many Trainz folk I've gone back to working in TANE rather than have my hard work endlessly broken by 'updates' that are no such thing.

I can't blame Plus directly but what I can blame is the lack of notifications of things going on. When the database was being updated to the latest service pack version, the progress bar was hidden. This was a bug that was reported and N3V Devs even said we know about it with each and every test release. You would think that this bug would've been repaired prior to the release, but no. They all instead went on a walkabout somewhere and left us in a panic trying to figure out what went wrong. This wasn't the only thing; just a major one. There's the bulk update issues, and there's the issue with copy-paste in Surveyor 2.0. These things too were reported but nothing was done. It's things like this that irk me because they are glaring issues and not those intermittent snotty ones that are difficult to pinpoint and nail down.

It was the database issue that did me in because I attempted to start up the program during the DBR It was the chattering hard disk that told me that things weren't right and I exited but that caused the data corruption I was never able to recover from. A database that was probably way too big for my own good that I was planning on cleaning up someday but instead got flushed right down the hopper. After the rebuild and reload, I ran into some missing assets. These were assets I got from somewhere and are no longer to be found anywhere. I came off pretty safe with only 7 missing assets from a single route.

If it wasn't for my backups and saved downloads, I never could've recovered. But the thing is, I no longer trust the program. A program I used to work in for hours at a time, whole days in fact, but now it's only short stints because I'm afraid I'll lose what I've got and this time permanently.

 

[KotangaGirl]

With other software I'm running it's the usual thing to get an update summary of what exactly is being fixed when an updated version is announced. Not with N3V though, - it's like some demonic Kinder Surprise with every 'update'. It's getting to the point where N3V's 'update' announcements have to be treated the same as the Nigerian lawyer who has just sent you an email telling you that you've inherited a million dollars.

 

[JCitron]

Did we actually inherit millions, or didn't we? It does seem that way sometimes. The problem is as I said many times before. There's a big rush to keep looking forward rather than fixing what's broken first. They don't have to do a complete repair, although that would be nice, but at least they can catch the glaring things that have been brought up over and over before issuing a new version. I hate to say it but Adobe, Microsoft, and so many other companies work this way now as well. I'm not trying to minimize the problem, it's sad that this is the way things are done today. The old day of quality over quantity are gone.

 

[philskene]

boletd --

Which route?

"Agree on layers. As a route user they are a pain."

Hmm. I'm a recent convert to Layers. In fact, I wish I'd discovered them years ago. They allow tremendous flexibility. See, for example, at 0:35 onwards in this video (best 1440p / full screen):

Phil

 

[blueodessey]

I've learned over the years that backups are our best friend. Prior to doing any route editing, I make a backup. Should there be something I can't recover from, I go back to my previous version. I may lose my current work, but not everything.


I can't blame Plus directly but what I can blame is the lack of notifications of things going on. When the database was being updated to the latest service pack version, the progress bar was hidden. This was a bug that was reported and N3V Devs even said we know about it with each and every test release. You would think that this bug would've been repaired prior to the release, but no. They all instead went on a walkabout somewhere and left us in a panic trying to figure out what went wrong. This wasn't the only thing; just a major one. There's the bulk update issues, and there's the issue with copy-paste in Surveyor 2.0. These things too were reported but nothing was done. It's things like this that irk me because they are glaring issues and not those intermittent snotty ones that are difficult to pinpoint and nail down.

It was the database issue that did me in because I attempted to start up the program during the DBR It was the chattering hard disk that told me that things weren't right and I exited but that caused the data corruption I was never able to recover from. A database that was probably way too big for my own good that I was planning on cleaning up someday but instead got flushed right down the hopper. After the rebuild and reload, I ran into some missing assets. These were assets I got from somewhere and are no longer to be found anywhere. I came off pretty safe with only 7 missing assets from a single route.

If it wasn't for my backups and saved downloads, I never could've recovered. But the thing is, I no longer trust the program. A program I used to work in for hours at a time, whole days in fact, but now it's only short stints because I'm afraid I'll lose what I've got and this time permanently.

Hello John,

As u know, I date back to Dinosaur time, 1970 with Tandy 1000's and then 1983 SX 286 CPU's, DOS 2.0, plus 20 yrs in IT, ooh my Brain hurts!

And then there was that New latest greatest Windows, Oh my. if I knew then, what I have know now, after 53 yrs of this stuff. I would probably stayed in Linux, dabble occasionally in Apple.

Then in 2014, I found Trainz Driver 2 for my IPad, now we are here in 2019, where I rest safely, until 22 gets some time on the books.

And then, who knows, I may never upgrade to 22. My old Laptop is coming up on 6 years, and 1080 NVIDIA, Hard Drive Space etc, will never run 22. Absolutely need New Computer. Safe to say, I can wait, watch, and educate myself on the well written threads here as others go ahead in 22.

I agree with your sentiment, on keeping 19 and your Routes safe. Who wants to lose something they cherish so much.

Also agree with Annie, Kotanga Girl,, if it's not broken, why try to fix it. Look at the beautiful Assets etc, she creates for us. Genius for sure.

And John, go with gut instinct, always worked for me.

Merry Xmas John, you are one of Sages of Intellect here!

 

[pware]

This sounds like a layer issue. What's so difficult with putting some kind of indicator on the screen somewhere to show what layer we're working in? Surveyor 2.0 has the pallets with Layers among them but if that pallet is hidden, we're back to the same issue all over again.

Another program that relies heavily on layers is GIMP, my favourite graphics editor. It has a Layers Palette, much like the Assets Palette in Surveyor 2. Like Surveyor 2 it does not have a separate onscreen indicator that tells you which layer you are working in, the Layers Palette will tell you that, and like Surveyor 2, the Layers Palette can be switched off and hidden from view. But I do wish that GIMP would take a look at how easy it is to turn palettes on and off in Surveyor 2. I have lost track of the time wasted and frustrations built up in GIMP trying to get an accidentally hidden palette back on the screen.

But even without the Assets Palette shown, the Info Palette will always show the layer assigned to a selected object together with a Select Layer button that will automatically make the layer assigned to that object the current Active Layer.

Nothing is perfect and all software has its limitations and "it would be nice to have that feature". Trainz and GIMP are no different.

And layers, in my humble opinion, is one of the best additions to Trainz since it first appeared. As Phil points out, layers adds enormously to the creativity in building a route and in the variety that can be presented when driving a route.

 

[JCitron]

I like the layers, it's just that they've never been implemented correctly and there's no way of knowing if we've been working in the wrong one. There's nothing like populating a city with buildings only to find out you've been on the road layer and then need to select objects and switch them. If there was a list of what was on a layer, set up in a tree, we could find which objects are on the wrong layer and easily move them. CAD programs and yes, graphics programs too, have this capability but not Trainz.

I know that frustration well with Gimp.

The info palette is way too small. The text on it, just like everything else is the size of ants.

 

[pitkin]

I also think that layers are a great addition, especially for scenery creation. I have had some problems with drivers in different layers. But then again, driver setup has become unstable, so I'm not surprised.

 

[dangavel]

boletd --

Which route?

"Agree on layers. As a route user they are a pain."

Hmm. I'm a recent convert to Layers. In fact, I wish I'd discovered them years ago. They allow tremendous flexibility. See, for example, at 0:35 onwards in this video (best 1440p / full screen):

Phil

Well Phil, this might be because you create VERY small routes, I know they are quite complex, but there's nowhere near the content in a route like yours compared to a larger one, try using layers on an 80 mile route ..... with miles of splines... I use layers ALL the time in Photoshop , but Trainz S1 really doesn't present them in any way that you can easily identify them. its all too easy to find out that you have been working in the wrong layer for some time and that can cause a lot of hassles. I have been advocating for different colored splines for different tasks , which would make identification much simpler and I can imagine scenarios where it is better to work on them in complex yards etc, but I don't ever seem to have to create routes like that .

 

[pware]

My current project, like all my projects since layers appeared, makes extensive use of layers. It is 375km (233 mi) long and is about to have another 81km (50 mi) added. I would not attempt such a project without layers - in fact there are 25 layers in the project

Ignoring the obvious track splines it has uncounted miles of road, fence, power line and other misc splines. In Surveyor Classic working in the wrong layer was a constant pain but this now seldom happens in Surveyor 2. Even when it does happen in S2 it is easier to fix, especially with splines, than it was in Surveyor Classic.

My observations.

 

[boleyd]

Layers are a must for creators and a big pain for the subsequent users.

 

[pware]

Layers are a must for creators and a big pain for the subsequent users.

Why are they a pain for the end users? If you are simply driving a train then layers will make no difference to you.

 

[daviejc]

I have a simple way to identify items that are on the wrong layer. I simply hide the layer the items should be on. Anything still visible that I want on that layer can then be selected and moved. As soon as I move them to the hidden layer, they disappear. When I'm finished, I unhide the target layer.

 

[JCitron]

What would've been helpful is a color map of what layer holds what.

Clicking on the layer list, and then a sub-layer. Routes then Splines, for example.
Every spline asset placed on that layer will show up in a particular color for splines. If anything doesn't belong on that layer, the asset can be selected and moved.

 

[boleyd]

That should fit right into the focus on improved graphics.