lord9 - again

[shaneturner12]

Interestingly, I believe the reason why the offending users always appear to be Russian (and this is not a jab at Russians in any way) may be to do with their communist culture, as they also seem to have had certain users from there using pirate copies of Trainz. For those who are not familiar with the terminology, communist (communism) is the opposite of capitalist (capitalism), which is the case in most other areas of the world. This usually shows up when copyright is involved.

Shane

Shane

 

[robd]

Interestingly, I believe the reason why the offending users always appear to be Russian (and this is not a jab at Russians in any way) may be to do with their communist culture, as they also seem to have had certain users from there using pirate copies of Trainz. For those who are not familiar with the terminology, communist (communism) is the opposite of capitalist (capitalism), which is the case in most other areas of the world. This usually shows up when copyright is involved.

Shane

Shane

Would you care to elucidate on that statement? In particular, the underlined.

 

[shaneturner12]

I can do - the way communism appears to work is along the lines of getting things cheap or for free, and there seems to be a different take on copyright law in communist areas as well.

If anyone who understands communism better than me wishes to add to this (or contradict it) they are welcome to do so.

Shane

 

[nicky9499]

It is an interesting observation I'll give ya that.

 

[shaneturner12]

Looks like I'm not far off if what's on Wikipedia is correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

Shane

 

[Lataxe]

Mornin' All;

Hi there Lataxe! I guess this could go on forever. Boy, I wish I had your woodworking skills! If I did, and made something for my friends, I would really expect them to keep it and take care of it. I would hope every time they looked at it they would love it and remember who made it for them. I would feel pretty rotten if they sold it or gave it to someone else. Your time, skill, and great care went into it. Maybe it's just me, but if they did not understand that, maybe they should give it back and a better home can be found for the item.

Surely we can respect the creators' wishes. Give them the credit they deserve, ask them if they mind before you alter their work. I think most don't want to see their work that they offered us turning up as payware, or in a route that is payware. If they agree to it, fine and dandy. Most of them seem to say it's OK to re-skin or make some other changes. Even with this permission, I would think the right thing would be to show the creator what you have done before you upload it anywhere. Always give the person credit for the great item you altered.

All this Russian had to do was ask. If he got a "no" answer, find something else and ask that creator. If all that fails, maybe he will have to learn to make his own items. I'm sure most guys would only be too happy to see their work being put to good use.

I'm sure not too many would bother with this sim if it were not for the great freeware artists' work. I read somewhere here in the last week that we AND N3V (whatever ya call them) should thank these guys once a month. I also think they should never have to pay for anything.... including every item in the shop, every new version that comes out, life time FCT, etc.

Anyway...thanks guys for everything you have done to make Trainz what it is. There very well might be no Trainz at all if not for the work you have done in every department.

Cheers...thanks a million....Rick

Rick,

Given it's the cultural norm, I agree with you that we should respect what Trainz asset creators want us to do in respect of use of their creations. I'm not really arguing against that as a de facto behaviour but rather against some of the apparent motives that drive their need (in some cases) to keep a jealous control. (And, in passing, against the gross exageration of the supposed terrible "crimes" of Lord9 & his ilk, by the witchfinder men).

It seems a self-contradiction, to me, to want to create and give something for the world at large to use whilst severely limiting what that use may be. My furniture analogy was meant to show that this need to control is not only a rather strange attitude but also rather impractical, not least because other humans have their own motives and requirements for use, no matter what a creator-of-something might think proper. Consider Tim Berners-Lee and his creation of the web paradigm. Where would he be if he thought the web should only be used as he wants and as he originally designed it, eh?

Mr Turner seems to be suggesting that it's some sort of Russian communist mode, this notion of sharing and giving up a jealous private ownership of what's shared. Such labels inevitably bring a whole load of baggage with them (he will accuse me of Stalinism next) so I avoid them. It isn't a political ideology to suggest that creators of useful things who allow others to use them for free might consider going beyond the private property model altogether and giving these things the status of commonly-owned.

But again you are right - this one's surely been exhausted (for now) as a topic. So perhaps I can, as you suggest, make it clear to all those who do create fine Trainz assets for us all to enjoy: you do have my admiration for your creative skills and for your generosity in giving. I hope the pleasure you get from doing so might be increased, though, by you allowing others to further develop your creations in whatever way they might, without fear of someone sikkin' a lawyer on 'em.

Lataxe

 

[j_maybury]

There must be some rules regarding freeware, If you re-skin some body else's work you must, at least show that work to the original author, and ask for his or hers permission to download it to the DLS, surely that's only common courtesy and should not need to be tolled.
look what happened to paint-shed, that program started to become a menace because of the thousands of badly painted rolling stock that was loaded onto the DLS. I was so happy when they finally axed that program.

 

[rickf77]

Hi, again; About the Russian thing: I think one of our Russian friends came on the forum one time to tell us how they look at things. I believe he said that they believe all stuff created for trainz and uploaded somewhere is free to use and do with as you please. I would guess Russian creators are aware of this and know, at least in some countries, that's just the way it is. I have nothing against the Russians or Communinism. I used to go to Cuba all the time. There are aways eyes watching, ya gotta keep your nose clean.

Cheers....Rick

I hope I got the jist of what our Russian friend said...if not sorry to him

 

[robd]

I can do - the way communism appears to work is along the lines of getting things cheap or for free, and there seems to be a different take on copyright law in communist areas as well.

If anyone who understands communism better than me wishes to add to this (or contradict it) they are welcome to do so.

Shane

Why is that any different to capitalism (the underlined)?

Anybody who has to work for their daily bread and who aren't reliant on state handouts will always welcome cheap and free!

I don't condone what these people are doing with regards to copying/cloning assets and claiming them as their own or whatever they're doing but to denigrate them for being members of former communist states is well out of order. In actual fact they're probably more 'capitalistic' in their outlook than so called 'western society'

 

[shaneturner12]

I did say that I was not jabbing Russians in any way and I stand by that.

If you have a read of the Wikipedia article I quoted further up you will hopefully understand where I'm coming from.

Shane

 

[robd]

I did say that I was not jabbing Russians in any way and I stand by that.

If you have a read of the Wikipedia article I quoted further up you will hopefully understand where I'm coming from.

Shane

I have read the Wiki. article and it just gives a brief definition of the various ideologies and dogmas of the many shades of communism, nothing definitive and certainly no impressions of what it's like to live in such societies/states. Not just Russians but:

Your statement '...I believe the reason why the offending users always appear to be Russian (and this is not a jab at Russians in any way) may be to do with their communist culture...' seems to imply that members of (former) communist societies are prone to corrupt activity by the very nature of their culture: isn't this also true of capitalist, fundamentalist, fascist, etc. societies?

 

[shaneturner12]

True, although it does seem to be that most of the problems we are getting are from Russian users who haven't posted here. This may just be a coincidence, but from previous experience (you may remember KoriKova who I believe was either Ukrainian or Russian) that seems to be the area where it's happening.

Shane

 

[steamboateng]

I find that communist locos run just as well on my routes as do capitalist locos.
However, I have found that Democratic drivers tend to wander about the routes a tad more than the Republican ones.

 

[Lataxe]

There must be some rules regarding freeware, If you re-skin some body else's work you must, at least show that work to the original author, and ask for his or hers permission to download it to the DLS, surely that's only common courtesy and should not need to be tolled.

Although I should really shut up now, having gone on and on and on too much already, I can't resist questioning your proposal above.

When a person creates a Trainz asset he is relying on an enormous number of precedents in doing so - design-elements from the real world (a loco, a building), CAD software, the web and even Trainz itself. Must he acknowledge the probably hundreds of people who have, in one way or anther, contributed to his ability to make, disseminate and express that asset in its software substrate (Trainz)? This would surely be impractical; and unnecessary.

Another more obvious analogy would be when someone makes and posts a route. Should they list every author of every asset it contains, as well as all the N3V and Auran staff who contributed to the making of the substrate (Trainz) in which it runs?

If your "must acknowledge the authors of the seeds of my evolved design" rule were applied vigorously, every license would be megabytes long and take aeons to complete, as we go digging about in the history of the design for every contributor to it since Og emerged from his cave!

And what if a creator refuses this permission to evolve the designed-thing they have annexed to themselves from this long history of contributors? Must that designed-thing then stop evolving and eventually die, as other designs that were allowed to evolve thrive? Wither the creator's fame then?

Lataxe

 

[steamboateng]

Although I should really shut up now, having gone on and on and on too much already, I can't resist questioning your proposal above.

When a person creates a Trainz asset he is relying on an enormous number of precedents in doing so - design-elements from the real world (a loco, a building), CAD software, the web and even Trainz itself. Must he acknowledge the probably hundreds of people who have, in one way or anther, contributed to his ability to make, disseminate and express that asset in its software substrate (Trainz)? This would surely be impractical; and unnecessary.

Another more obvious analogy would be when someone makes and posts a route. Should they list every author of every asset it contains, as well as all the N3V and Auran staff who contributed to the making of the substrate (Trainz) in which it runs?

If your "must acknowledge the authors of the seeds of my evolved design" rule were applied vigorously, every license would be megabytes long and take aeons to complete, as we go digging about in the history of the design for every contributor to it since Og emerged from his cave!

And what if a creator refuses this permission to evolve the designed-thing they have annexed to themselves from this long history of contributors? Must that designed-thing then stop evolving and eventually die, as other designs that were allowed to evolve thrive? Wither the creator's fame then?

Lataxe

I object ya' honor! The statement is argumentative and bears no relevance to the issue.
Does a sculpter acknowledge his chisel?
A Painter his brush?
A writer his language?
A programmer his code?

 

[rickf77]

Hee, hee, IF I ever made a route good enough to upload, I really would want to give credit to every person whose work I used. It would just be easier to say, "All I did was use all your great work to put this together...Thanks."

Honestly, we will never be able to stop this. Oh, it COULD be stopped! The people who can stop it are afraid to. Maybe it's the extra cost, time, or like they've said, they are worried about some of us making false reports, misunderstanding, etc. I guess I'd be a little nervous too. The only thing you can do is have people who know what's going on check over every item uploaded to the site. That means you have to find experienced trainzers who want to waste even more of their day doing a thankless unpaid rotten chore. Who in the right mind wants to do that!

For the parts of the world where a lot of this is happening, it's not going to stop. Either their way of thinking is different than ours or maybe some of them just don't care. You MIGHT stop them from doing it here, but what's going to stop them from uploading whatever they want at other sites? For the rest of us, doing this sort of thing "Just ain't right".

Cheers....Rick

 

[cascaderailroad]

It all comes down to the fact, that using an automatic uploader to the DLS ... N3V is not minding the store.

If someone wanted to put a virus on the DLS infecting it ... The automatic uploader would be fine with that, and install the infected asset to the DLS.

If someone wanted to put obsene assets and porn on the DLS ... That too would be just fine with the automatic uploader.

No one is sitting at the desk, to preview the assets being uploaded to the DLS ... So it is just fine and dandy with the DLS uploader, that it admits clones and re-skins of Lamppost Linda to be available on the DLS.

Now it is too late to lock the barn door, after the horse has been stolen ... and the Trojan Horse has been admitted in through the gates of the DLS server.

We now have 30,000 cloned, redundant, reserved, stolen, and downright mischievous assets uploaded to the DLS ... Such as: "POO" texture.

No one even saw that S#!% comming online ... as the automatic DLS uploader is an unmanned desk, with no one minding the store, while thieves and hoodlums came barging, stealing the cash register, and are running rampant, uploading untested, non-previewed Carp, directly to an unmanned DLS server !

You should have to have a licence to upload assets to the DLS, and too, someone should be previewing the uploaded assets to make certain that they are legal, and appropriate, fit for the DLS.

 

[steamboateng]

Come to think of it; slippin' a few Playboy centerfolds into that "thumbnail" space could take off the edge a bit.
But I guess that would be 'mischievous'; but certainly a site better than 'POO' texture!

 

[pware]

It all comes down to the fact, that using an automatic uploader to the DLS ... N3V is not minding the store.
....

You should have to have a licence to upload assets to the DLS, and too, someone should be previewing the uploaded assets to make certain that they are legal, and appropriate, fit for the DLS.

Great idea in theory and perhaps, down there at the South Pole, you will have the time to do it - other distractions would not be a problem

How exactly can you ensure that any uploaded content is "legal". How could you know beforehand, for example, that a particular texture was not taken directly from some-ones copyrighted photographic artwork that had no connection with the digital world? Or that the design for an asset did not include a registered trade secret (not impossible as I am aware of this happening in a non-trainz context)? Even if you ignore these two hypotheticals, you would have to check every new asset submitted for the DLS against every other asset already on the DLS- the artwork, meshes, scripts (if any), sounds, etc would all have to be checked. The job you describe would be a nightmare and the pay - ZILCH.

As Zec has already pointed out, there have been cases of authors giving permission for their work to be copied, modified and uploaded to the DLS by third parties and then, after the asset has been added to the DLS, withdrawing their permission.

If the all contents of the DLS were payware then the funds to do this would undoubtedly be available. Perhaps that is the solution to this problem.

 

[clam1952]

It all comes down to the fact, that using an automatic uploader to the DLS ... N3V is not minding the store.

If someone wanted to put a virus on the DLS infecting it ... The automatic uploader would be fine with that, and install the infected asset to the DLS.

Hmm........ sensationalising what is not likely to happen.
To put an infected asset on the DLS, it would have to contain an executable file or a script neither of which would allow the item to be committed and if it was uploaded disguised as a cdp it would be rejected for having foreign files in it.

A cdp is uploaded then the contents are examined, presumably by software and checked to see if they are related to Trainz, if not it gets rejected, if the contents were not checked we would not get reject emails when we have made a mistake or forgotten something. This is no different to an antivirus program examining the contents of a file or archive, a cdp is an archive, the technology has been in use for years.

The cloned stuff does not contain any illegal files so passes the automated checks, thats where the system falls down, however how do you fancy manually checking 250,000 items each time something is uploaded to see if it's a duplicate? Totally impracticable and I doubt you would get any employee willing to do that on a permanent basis. If any improvements could be made it would still have to be automated, computers do things a lot quicker and mostly more efficiently than we can.

As for the junk, you get that with any game where users contribute content, it's not just a Trainz thing, far worse stuff than poo texture have been put up for download in many other places.