lord9 - again
- Thread starter kenneth18278
- Start date
ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
Good Afternoon Mick
Actually, all it takes is a couple of the original authors to contact us, and we then look further into it. But if no one contacts us, we can't do anything.
As pointed out in my last post, the last 3-4 people who uploaded mass amounts of content without permission were perma-banned and had all content removed. But only once we knew that the content was uploaded without permission, based on several of the original authors reporting the content to us. As we do contact the uploader (again, to ensure it's not the situation where permission has been withdrawn afterward), if they do not repsond to us (we give 24 hours for them to respond), or are unwilling to accept that they are not permitted to release the content, then we perma-ban them from uploading.
Again, as NO author has directly contacted us with a clear list of their own content that has been uploaded without permission, we have no factual information that any particular assets ARE uploaded without permission. We've seen claims from one person that assets of his are there, but nothing to say exactly which ones...
Regards
Actually, all it takes is a couple of the original authors to contact us, and we then look further into it. But if no one contacts us, we can't do anything.
As pointed out in my last post, the last 3-4 people who uploaded mass amounts of content without permission were perma-banned and had all content removed. But only once we knew that the content was uploaded without permission, based on several of the original authors reporting the content to us. As we do contact the uploader (again, to ensure it's not the situation where permission has been withdrawn afterward), if they do not repsond to us (we give 24 hours for them to respond), or are unwilling to accept that they are not permitted to release the content, then we perma-ban them from uploading.
Again, as NO author has directly contacted us with a clear list of their own content that has been uploaded without permission, we have no factual information that any particular assets ARE uploaded without permission. We've seen claims from one person that assets of his are there, but nothing to say exactly which ones...
Regards
Matruck, I would love to hear your solution that would work better, be fairer to all and would not instantly ban anyone who makes a genuine mistake or is the innocent victim of a misunderstanding or outright vindictiveness.
Just because a few users (and it is just a few compared to the total number of contributors to the DLS) are "getting away with murder" is no reason to impose a draconian system on everyone else.
According to Wikipedia, the last lynchings without trial or any due process occurred in the US as recently as the 1960s carried out by hot-headed individuals bent on revenge for alleged crimes, always by blacks against whites. Perhaps we can now substitute the "Russians" as the new baddies particularly in light of recent events in Ukraine and the Crimea.
Just because a few users (and it is just a few compared to the total number of contributors to the DLS) are "getting away with murder" is no reason to impose a draconian system on everyone else.
According to Wikipedia, the last lynchings without trial or any due process occurred in the US as recently as the 1960s carried out by hot-headed individuals bent on revenge for alleged crimes, always by blacks against whites. Perhaps we can now substitute the "Russians" as the new baddies particularly in light of recent events in Ukraine and the Crimea.
Zec, how do you go on with speedtrees being cloned and re-uploaded to the DLS? as speedtrees need a licence, don't they?
If it has been copied, re-worked and uploaded to the DLS by someone without a licence, then you have unlawful content on the DLS , haven't you?
If it has been copied, re-worked and uploaded to the DLS by someone without a licence, then you have unlawful content on the DLS , haven't you?
How do you know? Are you privy to every license, agreement and config file of every asset on the DLS?
No other way to handle this except the N3V policy. Only the original creator knows if his content was pirated. 7 pages now of, "We think". I don't often agree with N3V but they are right on this. If you think something was stolen, alert the original creator and let them contact N3V. Got a license for the character you use in your posts?
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Mr Ware,
You're right that I made an error responding to posts that had nothing to say but "You're wrong Lataxe (no reasons why or how given)". Also, it's a distraction to go too far in trying to understand someone else's point of view by questioning their wider attitudes. I apologise for going down that particular alley, which is a cul-de-sac, as you suggest.
However, please don't think my saying that I'm arguing for arguing sake is flippant. One of the major (perhaps THE) major points of a forum is to discuss and resolve (or at least recognise) different viewpoints. "Defend your argument with vigour, especially when you eventually change your mind as a result". A forum (or any discussion) is meaningless if it degenrates into nothing more than a mutual admiration society for devotees of a hard & fast attitude about things.
I've tried to make cogent arguments for the notion that modern copyright has gone too far; and that freeware creators might actually find even more pleasure in letting their creations have more freedom to evolve in the hands of others - if they can get over their sometimes overblown private-property notions and recognise that it's their great utility to a community of peers that is the true source of their pleasure, when added to their creative drive.
This doesn't argue against payware - a formal economic arrangement for a creator to make a living from his efforts. But it does suggest that if the motive is not making a living, then the private-property device is really not very relevant anymore. So why not substitute a win-win for a win-lose - become a famous creator who's work seeds that of others, who in turn can learn to enjoy the pleasures of creating?
I think Zec Murphy's points about uploaders copying existing Trainz assets verbatim are sound. His argument and the attempted rebuttals have, incidentally, revealed just how draconian the attitudes of some people are - which might be the real problem, rather than any actual hurt caused by these incidents. It still seems that fear of loss of control is the problem, not ownership per se.
In all events, creators will still be driven to create and many other people will benefit both from using their creations and from learning by example how to begin making their own. Trainz is an admirable construct partly because of the creative products so well-made and so freely give. Perhaps more freedom of those products will simply bring, longer term, more creators and more admirable stuff born into the Trainz world?
Lataxe
Zec; Good morning. Man, there has got to be a better way. I'm not a business man, I'm just a retired working stiff who delivered mail. Good old fashioned back breaking work just about anyone who could read was able to do with a couple of weeks training. So, forgive my simple minded ways.
I think you guys and all of us who enjoy Trainz, have to realize that the good creators are one of the main reasons you are still around. We all owe these guys. I guess you have an agreement with them where you get to use their great work for free. Nothing wrong with that. I would hope you show your appreciation in some way. Even if you just tossed them a bone now and then. It would be great to hear just how grateful you are to them for giving you guys and the rest of us their wonderful work...for free.
I believe it is up to you guys to stop this sort of thing from happening. It should never arrive here in the first place. Yes, it's going to cost in SOME way. Maybe get some qualified members we all trust to handle it? Perhaps put out a call for volunteers, get a list, let the members vote? Let the volunteers decide if it's some sort of mistake, or something else. They can notify you guys when something has been done that deserves a person to be banned. Just a thought. Oh yeah, maybe you can toss them a bone or two, also.
This sort of thing is just not right. You have to put a stop to it. Don't leave it up to the creators to report it. Stop it before it makes it into the DLS.
Thanks for TS12, if it's flawed, I haven't been bothered by it....works for me. I supported the kick starter thing, may never use Tane (sorry, not even sure what ya call it), heck, I don't even want to use SP1.
Cheers....please find a way to stop this....Rick
I think you guys and all of us who enjoy Trainz, have to realize that the good creators are one of the main reasons you are still around. We all owe these guys. I guess you have an agreement with them where you get to use their great work for free. Nothing wrong with that. I would hope you show your appreciation in some way. Even if you just tossed them a bone now and then. It would be great to hear just how grateful you are to them for giving you guys and the rest of us their wonderful work...for free.
I believe it is up to you guys to stop this sort of thing from happening. It should never arrive here in the first place. Yes, it's going to cost in SOME way. Maybe get some qualified members we all trust to handle it? Perhaps put out a call for volunteers, get a list, let the members vote? Let the volunteers decide if it's some sort of mistake, or something else. They can notify you guys when something has been done that deserves a person to be banned. Just a thought. Oh yeah, maybe you can toss them a bone or two, also.
This sort of thing is just not right. You have to put a stop to it. Don't leave it up to the creators to report it. Stop it before it makes it into the DLS.
Thanks for TS12, if it's flawed, I haven't been bothered by it....works for me. I supported the kick starter thing, may never use Tane (sorry, not even sure what ya call it), heck, I don't even want to use SP1.
Cheers....please find a way to stop this....Rick
No need to juggle. I recently sent two applications for the removal of clones. I received no reply. Tickets have deleted. Now it's your problem.
ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
Good Morning Pofig
As pointed out to you, we have moved to a new helpdesk system (this occurred last year). Your tickets were sent to our old helpdesk which is no longer monitored, and through which we cannot send any replies. They have not been deleted, but they have been sent to the wrong location via an old email address.
Please send your ticket, with a full list of the content of yours that was uploaded without permission, to the new helpdesk ( http://support.trainzportal.com/ - this link has been provided to you several times, and is also accessed by clicking on 'helpdesk' at the top of the forums).
Regards
As pointed out to you, we have moved to a new helpdesk system (this occurred last year). Your tickets were sent to our old helpdesk which is no longer monitored, and through which we cannot send any replies. They have not been deleted, but they have been sent to the wrong location via an old email address.
Please send your ticket, with a full list of the content of yours that was uploaded without permission, to the new helpdesk ( http://support.trainzportal.com/ - this link has been provided to you several times, and is also accessed by clicking on 'helpdesk' at the top of the forums).
Regards
Re Zec at #100. Fair comment though I reserve the right to disagree with some of it. Certainly after investigation, if intentional copyright breach is found to have taken place then the fullest available sanctions should be considered. At that point there should be no second chance.
That being the case and given all that is happening and the anger/anxiety felt by genuine contributors, take steps to prevent this type of thing happening at source. Give those of us who want it the option of applying the same level of protection you apply to DLC. If that upsets reskinners or modders so be it, it may of course be possible to unlock an item for a specific user on request, but the priority should be preventing copyright theft in the first place.
That being the case and given all that is happening and the anger/anxiety felt by genuine contributors, take steps to prevent this type of thing happening at source. Give those of us who want it the option of applying the same level of protection you apply to DLC. If that upsets reskinners or modders so be it, it may of course be possible to unlock an item for a specific user on request, but the priority should be preventing copyright theft in the first place.
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Two years ago, you ignored my copyright and license conditions. You approved accommodation clones in Russian localization. You have created a precedent. But you care very touching copyright rats. Where is the logic? Why should I waste my time on the removal of clones. Suppose you have a headache. This is not my problem. I not download updates from DLS. Too much garbage.
This is about the worst thing N3V can do, and should be avoided at all costs. Aside from its impracticality, it will drive people from Trainz in droves. People like to be able to mod content. I certainly would cease contributing if Trainz included unwanted, unneeded "protection" for my content. I can deal with any issues myself, if I care to do so.
Better to go after the "rats" who cause these problems in the first place. There are plenty of tools (virtually none of which are being used) already available to both deal with the offenders and prevent this sort of thing in the future.
I did suggest any such scheme would would be optional for the content creator as to whether they wished to write-protect their content or not. The priority surely has to be protecting the rights of those who create original content, not a god given right for others to do as they wish with it. I suspect such a step would hardly cause a mass exodus given most users probably don't go near the creative side but simply play trains. And, as I said, with the programming talent available to N3V it ought to be possible to provide a means for the creator to unlock their content to a specific other KUID. This might actually involve the courtesy of a PM or email from the modder to the creator
However I suspect you are right and this will never happen, at least while N3V operate one policy towards protecting DLC with stringent DRM but don't appear to see the rights of freeware creators in the same way (and not helped by the userbase who shout that freeware = free for all).
Both RRSignal and Vern, in their last postings, have pointed out the problem (and the dilemma) for N3V and honest users of the current DLS. Applying the same protection afforded to payware creators on DLC will kill a lot of the practicality of the DLS. True, not all Trainzers are "modders" but until recently my sole use of the Content Creator/Editor (shift-ctrl-C, shift-ctrl-E and ctrl-M) options in Content Manager has been to fix errors in downloaded content - whole threads have been devoted to that issue and I am not going to resurrect them here. That basic remedy would be denied by locking all content on the DLS - yes the solution is to make all content error-free but I think we all appreciate the impossibility of that task.
During the last few months I have developed some skills in reskinning and making modifications to the config.txt files (e.g. substituting bogies, regauging built in track, etc) to reuse existing DLS assets in a special project that I and a small group of other Trainzers have been working on. If the changes we make are deemed successful then we seek permission from the original creator to use their work and, eventually, upload it to the DLS. This would be impossible and the project would never have even started without the ability to mod existing content. A few of us have skills using Blender or GMax (I am not in that category) but these have mostly been used in remodelling the original Blender/GMax files kindly given to us by some of the content creators.
Of all the content creators we have approached for this, none have knocked us back - although a few have yet to reply for which there are many possible reasons. Without the permission of the original creator we do not proceed with using their work. This leads me to suspect that perhaps the majority of creators are happy to see their work modified and reused by others provided due courtesies are observed. This is where a very small minority of downloaders are causing problems and some of them are obviously serious repeat offenders - but don't penalise all of us just for the actions of a few. Collective punishment is even outlawed by the UN
If individual creators want to permanently lock up their "freely donated" works then let them - although I ask if these people gained their skills, like many of us do, from studying the works of others.
During the last few months I have developed some skills in reskinning and making modifications to the config.txt files (e.g. substituting bogies, regauging built in track, etc) to reuse existing DLS assets in a special project that I and a small group of other Trainzers have been working on. If the changes we make are deemed successful then we seek permission from the original creator to use their work and, eventually, upload it to the DLS. This would be impossible and the project would never have even started without the ability to mod existing content. A few of us have skills using Blender or GMax (I am not in that category) but these have mostly been used in remodelling the original Blender/GMax files kindly given to us by some of the content creators.
Of all the content creators we have approached for this, none have knocked us back - although a few have yet to reply for which there are many possible reasons. Without the permission of the original creator we do not proceed with using their work. This leads me to suspect that perhaps the majority of creators are happy to see their work modified and reused by others provided due courtesies are observed. This is where a very small minority of downloaders are causing problems and some of them are obviously serious repeat offenders - but don't penalise all of us just for the actions of a few. Collective punishment is even outlawed by the UN
If individual creators want to permanently lock up their "freely donated" works then let them - although I ask if these people gained their skills, like many of us do, from studying the works of others.
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BuilderBob
New member
If you want to protect your copyright on your material you have to put in the effort - others won't do it for you.
It doesn't matter whether you have distributed it for free or paid, or whether it's distributed through the DLS or some other means - it's up to you to enforce your copyright rights if they are infringed. N3V will assist with that, if you ask, as will most other site operators. There are enforceable 'take down' procedures available in some cases.
If you aren't prepared to put in that effort then either don't distribute the material, or accept that your contribution may be passed off as other people's work. Of course it would be great if you could somehow distribute the material and not worry about how others might take credit for it, or even profit from it, but the impossibility of doing that effectively was recognised by the computer industry many years ago. To enforce your copyright you have to be proactive and hunt down the offending material and take action to get it removed.
Or just go with the thought that someone else considered it good enough to be worth copying - and that those in the community who care about such things know where it really came from.
Good day Bob,
While your views are certainly sensible and perfectly sound ones, in this specific instance the argument is fundamentally flawed.
The industry, as you have mentioned, have gone to great effort to protect IP rights and it should be no different with Trainz. On the other hand, these are big devs and studios who can afford both the time, cost and effort to hunt down violators. Of course these days they often go overboard but that's another discussion. The horse that is the technicality of copyright law has been beaten to death a thousand times over including earlier in this thread by eager armchair lawyers, philosophers and argumentativists, I am not going there. generally, most freeware content creators will try within their means to report such violations but there is only so much they can do before getting exasperated.
Even if we were to put that perspective aside for a moment, this is far from the first time somebody has pirated Pofig's content. He has also made multiple reports of such piracy in the past. Correct me if I'm wrong but right now N3V is refusing and dismissing Pofig's request to take down this pirated content based on a trivial technicality? That reports sent to the old Helpdesk somehow become null and void after the switch? Ignoring the fact that all outstanding tickets should have been resolved prior to shutting down the old Helpdesk, this is still the dumbest justification I have seen so far with regards to N3V's takedown policy.
Okay, let's go ahead and ignore all of what I've just said and just this:
Pofig is a freeware creator with a proven track record of high quality content. Trainz is a very niche hobby with a tiny community and even smaller pool of quality content creators. Already we have seen many pack up and leave (and I mean the serious ones not those who come and go every other week after throwing a tantrum), Frank McCall being one off the top of my head I'm sure the old hats and veterans can recall more. The reason why they leave isn't of importance right now, it is that considering the nature of the Trainz content-base and who makes them, we should be putting in the effort to attract and retain content creators.
Does this incident and those similar sound like an attractive proposition to would-be content creators? Would this incident encourage existing content creators to continue creating for Trainz and offering them at no cost to the rest of us? (The answer is no.)
Nicholas
2995Valliant
Well-known member
This is a very touchy subject, but for what it's worth as I see it the great advantage Trainz has had is its flexibility and ability to create/modify - that's what makes it immersive and keeps people here. If I can't download a piece of content, and then tinker with it to suit my needs - for my own personal use on my own pc only - then the world has gone mad. Imagine Hornby selling a trainset and saying "Now then, you can use this engine, but you must never couple it to anything other than the coaches we have supplied with it or run it on any other make of track, and if you so much as think about weathering it we will take action against you and throw you jail" That's clearly ridiculous, but not far off what seems to be being advocated in some quarters. As far as my own payware is concerned, once you've bought it, do what you want with it other than redistribute it - it's yours now, so why shouldn't you? It's not actually practical to demand anything else anyway!
I agree 100% that content should not be re-distributed without proper consent, regardless of origin, but legally only the copyright holder can ask that of N3V if it is uploaded within their domain and on the occasion that some of my stuff did end up the DLS it was removed efficiently - but I can see if the problem worsens it is going to become a significant drain on their resources which is a shame and yet another example of a minority screwing it up for the majority of decent, honourable users of the game. That's what happens to almost anything as it grows.
What saddens me most is that while historically Trainz has been the "free" sim in many ways, recent DLC is far more restricted than the competitions where after is something is released very often a whole host of upgrades become available - even detailed versions of official DLC routes - which can then be shared either for free or as payware. That sort of thing sadly seems to be impossible in Trainz as we move forward (although the layers concept is ideal for it) and is potentially a great loss. How ironic that a payware-centric, very restrictive business model with far poorer creation tools might end up being the tinkerer's choice!
Just my two pennyworth.
Anthony
I agree 100% that content should not be re-distributed without proper consent, regardless of origin, but legally only the copyright holder can ask that of N3V if it is uploaded within their domain and on the occasion that some of my stuff did end up the DLS it was removed efficiently - but I can see if the problem worsens it is going to become a significant drain on their resources which is a shame and yet another example of a minority screwing it up for the majority of decent, honourable users of the game. That's what happens to almost anything as it grows.
What saddens me most is that while historically Trainz has been the "free" sim in many ways, recent DLC is far more restricted than the competitions where after is something is released very often a whole host of upgrades become available - even detailed versions of official DLC routes - which can then be shared either for free or as payware. That sort of thing sadly seems to be impossible in Trainz as we move forward (although the layers concept is ideal for it) and is potentially a great loss. How ironic that a payware-centric, very restrictive business model with far poorer creation tools might end up being the tinkerer's choice!
Just my two pennyworth.
Anthony
Mr Valiant,
Although hesitant to make another post in this thread, since some appear not to like arguments against their own viewpoint, I would like to say that the attitude expressed in your post seems emanantly sensible to me. I cannot reconcile the notion of making an asset for free use by thousands, within Trainz, with the notion that the creator still expects to retain total control of it. As you intimate, the "logic" of this is "the world gone mad".
The folk who get hot under the collar about total ownership, and by cloning to the DLS by the likes of Lord9, seem to exagerate the "crime" greatly. If I might make a (no doubt contentious) case......
Pofig's tress are freely available from his website. Their purpose is use in Trainz.
Pofig's trees have been cloned to the DLS by Lord9. Their purpose is use in Trainz.
Pofig does not make money from letting us all use his trees.
Lord9 does not make money from copying Pofig's trees to the DLS.
Everyone can see that the trees are Pofig's and that he is the creator, not Lord9.
How does Pofig lose anything; what does he lose?
How does Lord9 gain anything; what does he gain?
The answer seems to be that all we users of Pofig's trees (including Lord9 I suppose) gain the convenience of finding Pofig's trees on the DLS instead of having to do the kuid hunt elsewhere. And nothing else. How is this so terrible?
I'm more than happy to be told what I've stupidly missed; but examination of this thread reveals no clue except this schizophrenic desire to freely give an asset for use whilst trying to control everything about it's use.
If it was payware, I would understand. If Lord9 had claimed authorship, I would understand. If Lord9 had mucked-up Pofig's trees and caused us to think Pofig was a bad designer of trees, I would understand. But none of those have happened.
It looks like the proverbial storm in a teacup.
Lataxe
shaneturner12
Tutorial Creator
Licensing is the potential hurdle here. Pofig may not have had the required license to upload his trees to the DLS, which is why lord9 may be in bother.
Shane
Shane