I fancy a new computer - thoughts?

In case I have not mentioned it yet today,
I had a PC fail due to defective power supply connector on the MB. It couldn't handle the +5V properly so the 3 +5V pins got a little warm, leading to corrosion, leading to an even poorer connection until too much voltage was dropped across the 3 pins. If you think you might have a power problem, disconnect the power supply cable from the MB and see if 2 or 3 of the pins are discolored.

I've seen this before on other moterboards and other hardware. The pin cleaning only goes so far though. Eventually the connectors need replacing if possible, if not then the boards will need to go. In the past I actually had a connector catch fire and burn up. It actually melted a hole right through the board. This was on an old monitor circuit board in a very expensive proprietary typesetter terminal. The terminal cost $10,000 new in its day back in 1985!

John
 
You appear to know nothing about how memory works.

You appear unable to address a user stated requirement.


You appear not to know why you really need ECC memory to begin with.


You appear not not know much of anything about computer hardware.


You appear unable to address or explain your reasoning behind your “user stated requirement”.




You feel that doing a few college courses and building a few machines makes you an expert.


You feel that “working with computers for more than forty years and defining requirements for large government procurements” makes you an expert on running games/sims on high end hardware.




I really don't think you have anything useful to contribute unlike many of the others who have made useful contributions and so I'll simply ignore any future postings in this thread from yourself.

Maybe my contribution is to the those who stumbled into this thread looking for good information, take this as an example of what forum NOT to take hardware information from.




Your brand of "trust me I know best black and white approach of one size fits all" might be better appreciated on a different train game forum.
Now that's funny when I've repeatedly suggested and even provided links to information at other sites along with repeatedly recommending that you research everything.





I always think of Trainz as a SIM rather than a game.


With my 15-20 years in the railroad industry and having experience on professional training simulators I have to say without a doubt, Trainz is a game not a simulator.
 
Try a little logic, lol, that's what I've been trying to tell you to do since I started responding in this thread. Logic would have already told you to start researching this in a real hardware forum a long time ago.


Take another look at the hardware recommendation thread, again, see any mention of ECC memory?


Better yet, NickN frequents Simforums.com all the time, how about asking the engineer with two PhD's his take on using ECC memory? While you're at it you could also ask about the X58/socket 1366 i7 issues reported by the hardware savvy bunch over at Newegg, that ought to get a laugh or two.


I've got to hand it to you, I've seen some B.S. excuses in train-game forums before but this just about takes the cake. You really have to get out more often, seriously.


What's next are you going to tell us all about railroad operations with no railroad experience?

ECC Memory is used in high-end workstation and server-class machines, and rarely in consumer game-class/home-class machines. ECC memory has parity checking and adds a level of data integrity. There is quite a price difference between ECC and none-ECC memory, but you get what you pay for in not only data integrity, but also machine stability. On a new PC you may not see the difference especially with new components, but as they age, they do become unstable and thus memory errors creap in and cause crashes. With ECC memory, this is less of an issue. Up until recently there was no other memory other than parity memory. The cheap comsumer grade stuff, has only been around probably about 10 years or less.

If you're wondering about my qualifications, your talking to someone that has worked in the hardware end of the electronics and computer industry for over 20 years out of my 30 years in the high tech industry. I have built computer systems long before they were called PCs, and in fact my first computer was a CP/M 3.0 based machine for which I had to write assembly language programs in order to use it for anything other than word processing. This was way back in 1983 when PCs were just becoming mainstream, and not all ran the MAC OS or MS-DOS.

During this time, I supported the ONTEL Amigo, repairing the mainboards right down to the component level, and also supported to the component level the rest of the Ontel products including the OP-1/64 front end along with its I/O controllers, disk drive controllers, Shugart 8" and Teac 5-1/4" floppy drives and controllers. The drive controllers required precise testing in order to configue and calibrate the drive controllers and floppy drives. The hard drive controllers also handled the large Wren and Phoenix drives, which required field replacement of their heads. The rest of the Ontel systems had seperate memory and video hardware cards, which required troubleshooting of failed components with various hardware tools such as DVMs, oscilloscopes, logic analyzers, and logic probes. After working with the field service department, I was then promoted to engineering and worked on prototype equipment. All of the prototype devices used the latest at the time, processors, memory, and video circuitry.

This was at one company. After leaving there, I handled a complete product line of communications equipment for a local TELCO equipment manufacturer, and eventually ended up in engineering there as well. When the manufacturing group was disbanned, I was moved up to MIS where I worked with the DEC VAX/VMS mainframes and SUN workstations.

Has hardware changed in the past 30 years? Not really. The components have gotten smaller and faster, but that's about it. There are still the same inherent issues now as there were back then, and probably more so because of the faster speed. Having the hardware troubleshooting experience as well as an Associates in Engineering, has helped me in the troubleshooting process, and has helped me in my hardware purchases.

Instead of throwing a tantrum, and calling people names, I have taken the time to research problem issues before I made the purchase. Remember I was the one that said there were what appeared to be timing issues. No one else in the forums said this. This is taken again from my hardware troubleshooting experience, as I've seen this in the past. The sheer number of similar problems across many manufacterers of the similar hardware points to an underlying problem with the new processors and motherboards. Eventually these issues will come to pass, but at this point, there are still teething problems with them, and I felt it was best to wait it out for a few years. Being on the bleeding edge all the time is not always a good thing.

You may think that building a bunch of systems makes you an expert, it doesn't. Anyone can put components together, but understanding whether the problem lies with a poorly designed motherboard, a flaky processor, or an unstable clock circuit, requires an understanding of how the hardware works.

John
 
ECC Memory is used in high-end workstation and server-class machines, and rarely in consumer game-class/home-class machines.

John

And why is it rarely used (or should I say NOT recommended) in “consumer game-class/home-class machines”, high latency that seriously degrades performance maybe?






If you're wondering about my qualifications, your talking to someone that has worked in the hardware end of the electronics and computer industry for over 20 years out of my 30 years in the high tech industry. I have built computer systems long before they were called PCs, and in fact my first computer was a CP/M 3.0 based machine for which I had to write assembly language programs in order to use it for anything other than word processing. This was way back in 1983 when PCs were just becoming mainstream, and not all ran the MAC OS or MS-DOS.


That's great but this begs the question, why with all that experience would you rely on customer comments from Newegg as a form of “good” research?






The sheer number of similar problems across many manufacterers of the similar hardware points to an underlying problem with the new processors and motherboards. Eventually these issues will come to pass, but at this point, there are still teething problems with them, and I felt it was best to wait it out for a few years. Being on the bleeding edge all the time is not always a good thing.


Any new chipset is subject to “teething problems”. The P55/socket 1156 came out long after the X58/socket 1366, which at this point in time makes it more likely to be experiencing “teething problems”.




I felt it was best to wait it out for a few years.


A few years? In less than a few years you'll be looking at the replacements for the X58 and P55 chipsets and then “waiting it out” some more.




Anyone can put components together,
From the comments here in this forum obviously not.







understanding whether the problem lies with a poorly designed motherboard, a flaky processor, or an unstable clock circuit, requires an understanding of how the hardware works.
Exactly and that's where education and “hands” on experience comes in.
 
And why is it rarely used (or should I say NOT recommended) in “consumer game-class/home-class machines”, high latency that seriously degrades performance maybe?

There really is not a loss in speed with this memory especially if the motherboard is designed to work with it properly. In fact the machines that use it are really stable and do not suffer from the ills that affect consumer-grade machines. The 14 fileservers that I managed for over 10 years all had ECC memory, and none of them failed due to memory errors. The desktop machines on the otherhand that used the cheap non-ECC memory needed periodic RAM replacement because the memory would fail eventually.

The reason for looking at the consumer feedback was to see what problems were out there with the hardware I was looking for. The P55 maybe a newer chipset for the i7 machines, but it appears to be a better combination with the motherboards being sold. Perhaps the X58 and the processors used by it are is still marginal. I don't have the luxury of purchasing multiple machines to find out which one would be better therefore it was worth the look at before I dived in.

Remember what suits you maybe fine if you're happy with it, but what John is looking for in a machine is totally different and due to different reasons. He's looking for a workstation-class machine which puts it in a totally different hardware class than any consumer-grade machine out there.

My P55/i7 machine is up and running now as I type this. The install went absolutely fine without any hitch what-so-ever. There was not a single motherboard hardware-related problem. This is the type of install I wanted, and didn't want to futz around with intermittent problems that couldn't be resolved.

John
 
The desktop machines on the otherhand that used the cheap non-ECC memory needed periodic RAM replacement because the memory would fail eventually.
John

That's why I don't use “cheap” RAM period.



The reason for looking at the consumer feedback was to see what problems were out there with the hardware I was looking for. The P55 maybe a newer chipset for the i7 machines, but it appears to be a better combination with the motherboards being sold. Perhaps the X58 and the processors used by it are is still marginal. I don't have the luxury of purchasing multiple machines to find out which one would be better therefore it was worth the look at before I dived in.
I don't think you'd find to many that would disagree with me that looking at consumer feedback at Newegg and then making a decision based on that probably leaves a lot to be desired. What hardware forums did you visit before deciding on your components?


With my personal experience from the machines I've built for customers as well as my own X58/i7 build there's nothing “marginal” about that combination. The P55 and socket 1156 are considered a lower cost solution than the “enthusiast” platform the X58 is considered, so if anything is going to be “marginal” it's the cheaper chipset.





He's looking for a workstation-class machine which puts it in a totally different hardware class than any consumer-grade machine out there.
Exactly and that's why he'll have to compromise performance for it.







The install went absolutely fine without any hitch what-so-ever. There was not a single motherboard hardware-related problem. This is the type of install I wanted, and didn't want to futz around with intermittent problems that couldn't be resolved.
Not one hitch here either, with the X58/i7 builds I've put together since my own back in July I haven't had any issues at all. Just goes to show you if you do the proper research on components you don't have to “futz around with intermittent problems that couldn't be resolved”.




By the way what sims/games do you have to run on your new machine? I'd like to see some examples of the performance your getting with the P55/860 setup.
 
There's no compromise in performance with the ECC memory and workstation-class machines. In fact their system precision is a lot higher with the XEON processors. I've seen this with differences in how certain graphics applications perform and precision errors in their rendering. This had nothing to do with the Quadro Video card versus the standard consumer grade video card. This was actually a math issue, and shows the difference an quaulity of the components.

Anyway I did visit Tom's Hardware and a few others I can't remember offhand at the moment. The consumer ratings, I know can be sketchy from NewEgg and its ilk, but this is a cross representative of the population that uses the boards. I totally disregarded the 1 eggers for people that complained about the size or long delays in boot-ups. These are snotty stupid reasons to complain. What I did take notice of where reports of DOA boards, processors, and memory timing issues because they could only work with specific brands of memory. These latter issues were seen across all brands of boards, EVGA, ASUS, GIGABYTE, etc. To me this brings up red flags about an underlying problem.

The P55 maybe a "lesser" quality according to you, but I've seen great performance with it. Right now the only programs I have loaded are Trainz, Diskeeper, Digital Element's WorldBuilder 4.5, and Office. All of the applications open up quickly wth minimal disk access. This is unlike the performance I had with my old QuadCore I Duo-2 board. Both machines, by the way are running Windows 7 64-bit. Granted the new machine has twice the RAM, but the hard disks are the same ones from two years ago.

I'm glad you are having good luck with the X58. To be honest I was looking forward to the same setup, but backed off after seeing all the problems.

John
 
wholbr,

As for your question, my advice, certainly not the only way to go, is a Dell Studio XPS 8100. I supose you can get one for less than $900 USD and certainly allot more with lots of bells and whistles. Try 6meg of RAM, something like an NVidea GT250, though a GT220 will do (see below). An i5 cpu is plenty.
 
There's no compromise in performance with the ECC memory and workstation-class machines.

John

So are you now telling us that you'll get just as good performance with ECC memory and a “workstation-class machine” as say you would with non-ECC memory and tight timings on a X58/i7 setup? That I'd really like to see.


Anyway I did visit Tom's Hardware and a few others I can't remember offhand at the moment.
Could you point us to a reputable site where discussions about these problems with the X58 chipset have taken place?



The P55 maybe a "lesser" quality according to you, but I've seen great performance with it.
It's not “according to me”, it's no secret that the X58/i7 outperforms everything out there. May be you can post some screen shots that show the performance you are getting?


I'm glad you are having good luck with the X58. To be honest I was looking forward to the same setup, but backed off after seeing all the problems.
Again could you point us to some reputable information about these so-called “problems”? It sounds like you are just trying to justify your component choices but what it really comes down to is that those decisions we're based on a budget not because of any real issues with one chipset or another.
 
There's no compromise in performance with the ECC memory and workstation-class machines. In fact their system precision is a lot higher with the XEON processors. I've seen this with differences in how certain graphics applications perform and precision errors in their rendering. This had nothing to do with the Quadro Video card versus the standard consumer grade video card. This was actually a math issue, and shows the difference an quaulity of the components.

Anyway I did visit Tom's Hardware and a few others I can't remember offhand at the moment. The consumer ratings, I know can be sketchy from NewEgg and its ilk, but this is a cross representative of the population that uses the boards. I totally disregarded the 1 eggers for people that complained about the size or long delays in boot-ups. These are snotty stupid reasons to complain. What I did take notice of where reports of DOA boards, processors, and memory timing issues because they could only work with specific brands of memory. These latter issues were seen across all brands of boards, EVGA, ASUS, GIGABYTE, etc. To me this brings up red flags about an underlying problem.

The P55 maybe a "lesser" quality according to you, but I've seen great performance with it. Right now the only programs I have loaded are Trainz, Diskeeper, Digital Element's WorldBuilder 4.5, and Office. All of the applications open up quickly wth minimal disk access. This is unlike the performance I had with my old QuadCore I Duo-2 board. Both machines, by the way are running Windows 7 64-bit. Granted the new machine has twice the RAM, but the hard disks are the same ones from two years ago.

I'm glad you are having good luck with the X58. To be honest I was looking forward to the same setup, but backed off after seeing all the problems.

John

You're trying to have a dialog with some one who has limited knowledge and fixed ideas. One of which is they must be right and cheap components / computers are rubbish.

I've dealt with such people before usually having to clean up afterwards. One speced out a very good two cpu dual core machine which was purchased as a database server. Unfortunately they saved money with RAID 5 disk drives rather than mirrored drives and went for the tried and trusted 32 bit operating system. It cost an additional $210,000 in software licensing costs because of the configuration. I had a comparable system except it had a much larger database size and number of users single cpu quad core that cost a tenth as much. This system configuration had been considered but discounted because it was too cheap.

Another was off sick so I took over their hardware spec for 2,000 machines and was asked to substitute a cheaper disk drive by management. Apparently his spec was looking to be more than we had budget for. I changed about six or seven items which allowed more competition driving down the price and met more than 98% of the basic requirements. When he came back he sat down with me and our supervisor and I started to go through the changes I'd made. The first item was minor and was accepted, when we got to the second item he was quite emphatic that what was written in the spec was exactly right. He then took us through the rest of the spec to show us how wonderful he was. When the machines showed up then he realised where the changes were and was quite upset. Especially when the supervisor reminded him he'd been through the spec with us and how each item had been exactly right.

I have a few other stories of similar people. One of my favourites was my boss's boss's boss met with a database salesman and on being told how wonderful they thought the software was, was asked why we weren't buying more licenses. I'd just consolidated some humongest number of database servers into one server with a single cpu with a very special configuration optimised for a database server. We actually had that running at 20% cpu usuage very unusual for a database server. I heard the tale from the salesman next time I cadged a coffee off him.

Cheerio John
 
You're trying to have a dialog with some one who has limited knowledge and fixed ideas. One of which is they must be right and cheap components / computers are rubbish.
Cheerio John

All we've seen from your posts is examples of limited knowledge and “fixed” ideas.





I've dealt with such people before usually having to clean up afterwards.

Do you have any experience with specifying components for machines that have to run applications that use gaming technology?

How about multimillion dollar training simulators?
 
Last edited:
You're trying to have a dialog with some one who has limited knowledge and fixed ideas. One of which is they must be right and cheap components / computers are rubbish.

I've dealt with such people before usually having to clean up afterwards. One speced out a very good two cpu dual core machine which was purchased as a database server. Unfortunately they saved money with RAID 5 disk drives rather than mirrored drives and went for the tried and trusted 32 bit operating system. It cost an additional $210,000 in software licensing costs because of the configuration. I had a comparable system except it had a much larger database size and number of users single cpu quad core that cost a tenth as much. This system configuration had been considered but discounted because it was too cheap.

Another was off sick so I took over their hardware spec for 2,000 machines and was asked to substitute a cheaper disk drive by management. Apparently his spec was looking to be more than we had budget for. I changed about six or seven items which allowed more competition driving down the price and met more than 98% of the basic requirements. When he came back he sat down with me and our supervisor and I started to go through the changes I'd made. The first item was minor and was accepted, when we got to the second item he was quite emphatic that what was written in the spec was exactly right. He then took us through the rest of the spec to show us how wonderful he was. When the machines showed up then he realised where the changes were and was quite upset. Especially when the supervisor reminded him he'd been through the spec with us and how each item had been exactly right.

I have a few other stories of similar people. One of my favourites was my boss's boss's boss met with a database salesman and on being told how wonderful they thought the software was, was asked why we weren't buying more licenses. I'd just consolidated some humongest number of database servers into one server with a single cpu with a very special configuration optimised for a database server. We actually had that running at 20% cpu usuage very unusual for a database server. I heard the tale from the salesman next time I cadged a coffee off him.

Cheerio John

I've had a few of these war stories too. One of them that really got me was members of the engineering department taking it upon themselves to spec out workstations for PROEngineer. Instead of consulting the IT department, they setup the machines themsleves with the help of an outside consultant. When they got done, the machines were inadequate, and way over priced. The kicker was the network drivers were incorrectly installed so everything had to be uninstalled and the machines rebuilt from scratch. This time they called me in because the consultant was no longer on the payroll. If they had consulted with IT initially, and had given us the specs to work with, they would have had the top machines they needed, and the install would have been done only once.

I know what you mean. Some people don't like to listen. My new so-called underpowered machine is quite fast. What used to take 25 minutes per frame rendering time in WorldBuilder 4.2, now takes only 8 minutes per frame. At this pace, I can actually think of doing a good sized animation.

John
 
I know what you mean. Some people don't like to listen. My new so-called underpowered machine is quite fast.
John


It's just an example of someone's inability to cope with the fact there are a lot of other people out there that have more experience and knowledge about the subject being discussed.


What's proof of this is the fact that some the responses are coming from individuals who are unwilling to venture out of this forum for information as if it's going to be the end of the world when their proven wrong.


By the way I'm all ears about hearing about how “your new so-called underpowered machine is quite fast”. I'm wondering why you consider it “ so-called underpowered'?


I'd still like to see some screens of that performance your getting and how it stands up to the X58/i7 platform.
 
That platform is still just crap compared to the 9988txe chipset together with the Avalanche Octagon 4,6GHz processor.

Yeah but I think I'll wait until the “reviews” at Newegg.com start to roll in before I make a jump to that platform, lol.
 
That platform is still just crap compared to the 9988txe chipset together with the Avalanche Octagon 4,6GHz processor.

Depends exactly what you are trying to do and the requirements. I'm not trying to run Trainz at minus 40c but do agree at that temperature it would beat out the rest.

Generally speaking it doesn't drop below minus 35c in winter and I do try to put the central heating on when it gets down to zero to keep the computers a bit warmer.

But thank you for the thought and the realisation that it does get a little cold here in winter.

Cheerio John
 
"Case, I'm after quiet, I'd thought Antec but I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks John"

Hi John.

Had you seen the Lancool website? Take a look, perhaps you like it:

http://www.lancoolpc.com/en/contact_us/index1.php
http://www.lancoolpc.com/en/microsite/01/
http://www.lancoolpc.com/en/product/product06.php?pr_index=15&cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=62&g=d

Stop incoming dirt into the case is one of its great feature, although they have 3 large cooling fans!! They are a bit less deeper, but the other features are great. You think so?

Other good case, but more expensive, is the "Lian-Li" series. That is the trade mark who sales the Lancool line.

Regards.
John.
 
Last edited:
Other good case, but more expensive, is the "Lian-Li" series. That is the trade mark who sales the Lancool line.

Regards.
John.


Antec doesn't match up to the quality of Lian Li.


I've been building PC's with Antec, Lian Li, SilverStone and CoolerMaster for the last ten years and without a doubt Lian Li and SilverStone are of the highest quality.


Lian Li's all aluminum cases are probably the best period. The high end full towers also have a wide variety of high quality accessories also. One of my gaming setups currently uses a Lian Li PC-A70B (which has some of the best ventilation of any case I've used so far) I picked up a few years ago but I think this might be my next case -


http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product06.php?pr_index=336&cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=61




Then there's all the accessories that you can modify the case with -


http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product02.php?cl_index=2
 
"Case, I'm after quiet, I'd thought Antec but I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks John"

Hi John.

Had you seen the Lancool website? Take a look, perhaps you like it:

http://www.lancoolpc.com/en/contact_us/index1.php
http://www.lancoolpc.com/en/microsite/01/
http://www.lancoolpc.com/en/product/product06.php?pr_index=15&cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=62&g=d

Stop incoming dirt into the case is one of its great feature, although they have 3 large cooling fans!! They are a bit less deeper, but the other features are great. You think so?

Other good case, but more expensive, is the "Lian-Li" series. That is the trade mark who sales the Lancool line.

Regards.
John.

Keeping things quiet is important to me, so in general the weight is important, the heavier it is the quieter it is. I'm not interested in blue leds lighting up the interior or plastic panels on the side.

Mine will sit on the floor and not move for five years or so so I think I'll stick to a conventional case without a plastic panel on the side.

There are two components to the price of a case the design and the cost to build. In general the larger the number of cases of a given design the lower the design cost per case and the lower the cost of production. So I prefer as mainstream as I can get provided it meets functional requirements.

Aluminum cases are light in weight so nosier and more suited to carrying around and carry a premium price.

There is a potential fire risk with Aluminum as well. Although its generally considered fairly safe its the layer of Aluminum oxide on the outside that keeps it that way. If you want a fairly effective explosive kitchen foil dropped into liquid oxygen is very effective. Don't try this at home and keep the quantities down to a few grams inside a cast iron pipe if you do so. I've seen it demonstrated and a few square inches was enough to lift a stool placed over the top about a foot in the air.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

Cheerio John
 
Back
Top