Frustrated and disillusioned – a review of Trainz 2010

wasn't this kind of response well satirized as vapid, in one of the posts below? aren't the geraniums lovely this time of year?

he's right, and we've been using this game since it first came out. you have to dig to find stuff -- are you ignoring that the guy bought and mastered a CAD program -- possibly for the same dollar amount? and that the manual helped him learn it? and, dollar amount... the CAD program probably wasn't 2/3rds free content from fans of the program.

what's neat, and you should really concentrate on what's unique about his articulate post ( and not just slap him and send him to the corner ) is that this is a first time user to trainz, and he's starting in 2010 -- we get to see exactly what it looks like to him and how we ourselves probably would have felt and sounded if it'd been us.

it's a sun-clear picture of Trainz -- we have to just live with the fact that we've been playing with only half a deck all these years.



I think you are expecting too much too quickly. A touch of the "I want it all, and I want it now" mentality, if you don't mind my saying so. Have a good time exploring the enormous amount of stuff in TS2010, and don't get upset by one little hiccup in a session. I will sympathise with you on one point, that spline points snap together far too readily. I think the Shift key should be used to join spline points, not to stop them from joining.

I'll just touch on one other point in your list of complaints. There are absolutely beautiful Gresley Teaks available, made by Andi06, but they were made for an earlier version than TS2010. Maybe they have not yet been updated to work with TS2010. I'll be coming up against this problem as soon as I get my copy of 2010. But I'll get them working one way or another, and I'll have fun doing it.
Mick Berg.
 
wasn't this kind of response well satirized as vapid, in one of the posts below? aren't the geraniums lovely this time of year?

he's right, and we've been using this game since it first came out. you have to dig to find stuff -- are you ignoring that the guy bought and mastered a CAD program -- possibly for the same dollar amount? and that the manual helped him learn it? and, dollar amount... the CAD program probably wasn't 2/3rds free content from fans of the program.

what's neat, and you should really concentrate on what's unique about his articulate post ( and not just slap him and send him to the corner ) is that this is a first time user to trainz, and he's starting in 2010 -- we get to see exactly what it looks like to him and how we ourselves probably would have felt and sounded if it'd been us.

it's a sun-clear picture of Trainz -- we have to just live with the fact that we've been playing with only half a deck all these years.

MikeMike, please tell me who it was that satirized my vapid post, I'm not getting it! As my post was the only one that Handlaidtrack responded to, I think it must have been of some value.

Handlaidtrack, I'm glad my reply was useful to you. Looking back a few years to when I first started with Trainz, (much less complicated in those days, but also much less powerful.) I remember how annoyed I got with some things, especially the Shift key thing. I too got close to giving up a couple of times. And I was very annoyed by the errors in the Settle and Carlisle route in TC3 that sent trains careening into platforms and cattle docks. But I'll bet that, in the last few days, you've learned a lot about Trainz, how to avoid the pitfalls and frustrations, and are having a lot more fun with it.

Re CAD programs and manuals, CAD programs are defined in their structure and capabilities. It is easy to write a manual for such programs. The manual can be as boring as a telephone directory, and still fulfil its purpose. Trainz is a game, so the manual needs to be light-hearted and fun, designed to get mind-blowing results quickly. Add to that the fact that so much of Trainz is contributed by third party creators, not being paid for their work, and you must accept that things will be somewhat vague at times.
Enough!!:wave:

Mick Berg.
 
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I found it most interesting to follow this post and its progress. I feel that the author was making some valid points from the point of view that he had got his shiny package home and installed it, only to find that the content was somewhat lacking in a number of ways.

“first time user to trainz, and he's starting in 2010 -- we get to see exactly what it looks like to him and how we ourselves probably would have felt and sounded if it'd been us”

This statement does not really take us anywhere as we were all new to Trainz at some point, no matter what version it was. In fact, the earlier versions of Trainz were much more frustrating than the newer editions. We all started on the page entitled “Clueless and what to do now” paragraph. I think most of us have been on some kind of medication over the years since we first bought Trainz. Some developed permanent tics and other nervous habits.

In this instance I feel that I have to agree with Mick Berg as I have noticed from the various postings over time that there are those who think that Trainz is “scripted” and all they have to do is load up a route and drive. They have no interest to change, alter or revise. They do not want any problems to fix. Some have no interest to create. Some of us want to sift through the pile and find out what is underneath. Each to his own then.

This brings us to the stark reality that Trainz is developing and growing and will continue to do so. How long is a piece of string? As we speak, someone is trying to write an index for Trainz content! Another unending task as Trainz will grow. Content creators will keep on creating more masterpieces. If all we could do with Trainz was use it like a repetitive platform game then I would have given up a long time ago.

For me, Trainz is a challenge. It is a head bender with complex problems that have answers if you care to look for them. Trainz will never be complete because it is always evolving. Auran plonk a new version on the table and we devour it. Everyone gets busy making, creating, fixing and finding more ways to get things done. Something to stretch your imagination and get the brain into gear. “I can and I will”.

“it's a sun-clear picture of Trainz -- we have to just live with the fact that we've been playing with only half a deck all these years”


…. And I suppose we will continue to work with half a deck but I am just happy they left the jokers in the pack.

My regards Doug
 
Problems whith Trainz 2010

Hey I encountered the same problems when i bought trainz 2006. One problem I had for 4 years and that the track was joining but it fixed by holding shift. The others I have no clue.:(
 
I have 2010. I can see your points. I can solve one mystery for you though. to keep the tracks from cinching together zoom in closely. as far as docs are concerned alot of valuable information can be gained through tutorials...the documentation that comes with the software does suck. the other tool that has been helpful is the forum asking particular questions or just reading through posts. Usually your not the first to have the problem and even if you haven't run into the problem yet sometimes finding out about someone elses problems and how they can be solved can go far in fighting off frustration. I am finding with 2010 many things that worked fine in 04 and 06 choke up. I am similar to you...I like to lay my own map...and program my AI's to do the work. AI's are pretty picky eaters and its a challenge to get them to do a simple task without taking a short cut. Signaling and speed are helpful things to learn. and there are a few Tutorials available out there. There are some tutorials on some of the other issues that you meantioned. However Ultimately its Auran who should be publishing this data with its releases. I would love to find a OFFICIAL guide that covers all these issues.. In FACT I would spend money to have a copy...
 
I'll vouch for the lack of documentation, but this seems to be the way with a lot of software including some that costs way more than Trainz!

Mr. MF: I'll go along with you on an Official Guide project if you want. I've been involved in printing and publishing industry for many years.

John
 
I think the original poster has valid points, and can be construde as reasonably constructive instead of just a blind rant.

In the early days I found my learnings were a combination of intuitive insights, trial and error fumbling and checking out the Forums here.

In saying that I started with Trainz... which was actually a cyber version of model rail. I consider myself only reasonably proficient with TS2010 due to owning all the previous versions, and learning different things through those editions.

I've only just recently learned how to adjust object heights in TS2010 by units less than 1.00, due to a change in the default settings vs TRS2004/2006.

The comparison between Trainz vs TS2010 is colossal to say the least, right from placing a train/consist on any given map. I honestly don't know how I would've gone starting off with TS2010.
 
Once we upgrade our HP p6210f with a GeForce 460, an AMD Phenom II & an Ultra X3, I'll be in the perfect position to play TS2010:EE. I should be able to get started easy after hours of playing TRS2006. I'll have an FCT to download stuff right off the bat after I register my copy. The old I content I know & love can be downloaded & the new content I have had my eyes on will be mine!
 
phew that was close!

Thanks for the warning I was just about to go uptown today and buy Trainz 2010, by the sounds of it I would have just brought home a headache, not fun.

Of course all you experienced Train mega-fans will just poo-pooh some poor noob who is not as smart or has less time than you.

But excuse me i just want to enjoy myself building lines not have to spend more time digging up obscure info that should have been simply and readily available in-game than i do actually constructing the environment.

Special obscure procedures just to straighten tracks, build tunnels or lay doubleline, no thanks!

Quotes like, " Raising and lowering the fixed-track bridges is a bit tricky and involves both the object height adjustment tool, and or the leveling and raising of ground. This latter move maybe necessary if the bridge-object can't be adjusted with the height adjustment tool.", just scare the hell outta me.

Seems like building a real model rail would take less time and be more enjoyable than absorbing complex separate PDF's, being stymied with bugs like Red light messages when its actually Yellow, (which no-one here has answers for), and searching for info on forums, the Net etc.
What a dissapointment, why did they make the Interface so hard?
 
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Skymax - It's really not that hard at all. The in game stuff is a breeze, totally user friendly. Doing anything is seldom more than three clicks away. I've owned this game maybe two months, and I'm almost ready to share my re-skins.

The only things you have to remember is 1) it's very demanding on the computer and 2) it gets cranky if something gets interrupted.

Sure, there's a learning curve, but it only looks steep from the outside. Of course if you've already decided, and just joined to post "no thanks", well that's one more batch of "how come" questions we'll be missing.

Darn.:sleep:
 
1I don’t know if there are others out there with similar experiences, or whether I’m just expecting too much. Quite aside from the problems I had initially getting Trainz to work, it has so far been one frustration after another.

2
  • How do I lay parallel tracks accurately, a known distance apart, especially when running diagonally across the grid?
  • How do I lay out an accurate curve of a known radius?
  • How do I fix tracks so they don’t move out of alignment when adding new junctions or spline points?
  • How do I create a yard, and join several closely spaced tracks with a simple ladder?
  • How do I group a set of tracks together and drag them around the map to get them in the right place?
  • How do I place two tracks close together without them joining up? This one was particularly annoying! Last night, I laid track in a small junction station and yard with about 20 turnouts, yet I had to undo so much that I have junctions numbered in the 300+ range.
  • How do Iadd platforms, bridges, and other things that need to be precisely located relative to track that seems to be impossible to locate accurately?
  • Where can I find a turn-table?
3
Most of the controls available are not explained. Of these, some don’t do what their name would imply, and others do not appear to do anything at all. Surely, they all have a purpose, but many are not intuitive in their operation, and need to be described in detail in the documentation.

4
Despite these problems, I have some track laid. The alignment is not perfect, but I suppose it’s passable for a first attempt. Now comes the need for buildings, bridges and station platforms. Platforms..., that’s a laugh. Station platforms are such an integral part of building a railway that I’d expect a button to do it automatically, or at least a range of track components that include platforms. owever this task is supposed to be done, it needs to be described in the manual or other documentation, along with such other vital topics as building tunnels, cuttings and embankments. I do remember reading something on the forum about digging tunnels, but how I’m going to find that again, I don’t know (see below for notes on the forum).

5
About three years ago, I purchased a CAD package of similar complexity, which had a manual consisting of 174 large pages of small type and a gazillion diagrams! I was producing very complex high-quality drawings within a few days, but I digress.
Since the manual is incomplete, 6 lets use the online help instead.

7
Now that it looks as though this will take far longer to learn than I expected, let’s go to the download station. I still have three days remaining on my first-class ticket, so it would be a good idea to download everything I want now. 8 There are over 140,000 assets available in the DLS, so I should be able to get anything I need for my railroad designs, right? Wrong!
Obviously, most of the 140,000 assets are not appropriate for my areas of interest. With such a diverse subject as railways world-wide, it could not be any other way. 9 The problem here is that there is no index. The entire collection is divided into a few sections (which don’t necessarily contain what they are supposed to), but that is as far as it is broken down. 10 At the very least, each category needs to be searchable by era and region. Also, incorrectly tagged items should be rejected – or placed in a ‘trash’ file and not counted in the total until they are corrected.
11 The search algorithm is badly flawed, appearing to lack the capability to search for whole words. Eg; attempting to find locomotives and rolling stock suitable for “British Rail”; typing BR in the search comes up with tens of thousands of superfluous items like broomsticks, abrasives and candelabras.
12 Even after fighting through all these shortcomings to download assets, I have so far yet to obtain one that does not have a broken or missing dependency.
13Thus it looks as though I might have to use only the content supplied with the program. While I cannot speak for all eras and regions, those areas that I have looked at simply do not have enough appropriate content to create a believable route.
14 Eg; I found a beautiful 1930’s CN passenger train, but there is nothing else appropriate for the same layout. While it is not reasonable to expect everything to be available, I’d go so far as to say that if a region/era is going to be represented at all, there should be enough different locomotives to cover all traffic classes, and a representative selection of both freight and passenger cars.
15 For the three region/era combinations that I am particularly interested in, I’ve yet to find ANY suitable locomotives within the supplied content! There are some listed on the DLS, but as I’ve already pointed out,16 the DLS seems to be totally hopeless! I refuse to even think about paying for additional locomotives etc until I’ve got some value out of what I’ve already purchased.


17 There are already far too many objects in the database, with no apparent way of organizing them.
18 Of course, when it comes to the millions of different items under the ‘buildings’ menu, there isn’t even the capability to eliminate ‘non-favorites’ from the list.

19 I sincerely hope that someone from Auran reads this, and that they take it into consideration for their next release.
:(


1. Getting Trainz is like getting a new car, you have to adjust to the little quirks it has.
2.
  • To get parrallel tracks, either use double tracks or at each spline (joint) put a ruler tool at the distance you want apart and place a single track spline on each end of the ruler. Eg, I put a metre long ruler down then another ruler 200metres away (making sure the rulers are parrallel). I then click on the bottom side of a ruler click on the bottom side of the other ruler like this: |_| Then to finish, I do the same for the top so it looks like this: |=| You can also download a special tool that is an object you place down and you can define the width (the problem is the when you place it down, it goes for an indefinately long length each way, causing lag)
  • For curve tracks, DO NOT do this: http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=33136 Instead, use some rulers like this: http://trainzresources.com/directory/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=546
  • There is no defined tool to keep a piece of track fixed but generally, people try out the straighten tool in the track laying tab.
  • Once again, use a ruler!:p If I wanted each piece of track to be two metres away, draw a track parrallel to the yard then make a diagonal line branch off. After that, place a ruler every two metres down the diagonal track, then place a spline at each gap between the rulers. Just add track diagonal with main track at each spline and Voila! You have a yard.
  • You cannot select multiple track but you can copy groups of objects such as buildings and paste them elsewhere. Just delete the source group that you copied and now the buildings are moved in perect harmony.
  • The program makes it imposible to join things when you hold the shift key down. This includes scenary splines such as fences and roads.
  • Platforms are considered scenary splines and sometimes are distributed in the format of predefined blocks of platform. Bridges are absolutly the same as placing tracks, infact, the program can't tell the difference! Try placing a bridge on flat land, it will only show the top and track, now, go to terrain editor and dig down between the two ends of the bridge, it will expose the supports to the bridge! Now dig down under one spline in the bridge, the whole then will dip to that end. Click undo once now. Try raising the ground at one of the splines, it should also expose the supports. If you did not click undo it will not work because if it shows as a yellow spline, it will generaly not be affected by editing terrain.
  • If you are looking for a turntable, try searching 'tside' in the objects tab. tside is a Trainzer's best friend, it has so many useful objects to place down. When using the trackside objects tab, search tside there aswell.
3. They are not explained, end of story, but I do happen to know of a secret command that was put in Trainz many years ago, but that's for you to discover. :hehe:
4. Platforms are explained in number 2. Tunnels are in the same category but placed a little differently. All tunnels have
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.Sometimes the response will be unexistanr, fruitless or if you are lucky (like me) very good:
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=12467&page=44
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=12467&page=43


I will continue later!
 
Skymax has obviously never tried to develop for MSTS. For nine years, I didn't create anything, even though I love making content more than running trains because of the archaic and virtually useless "development tools."
 
Me too

Skymax has obviously never tried to develop for MSTS. For nine years, I didn't create anything, even though I love making content more than running trains because of the archaic and virtually useless "development tools."

I had the same reaction. It's the old story, "everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die." I'm just now starting out in Trainz, but I knew what I was in for because I went through it all with MSTS. I fully expect to be thoroughly frustrated for months while I figure out how to do even basic stuff. These are complex programs, with a lot of features; there's no way around a steep learning curve. But mastering it is part of what gives satisfaction when you build something neat.
 
Over the years numerous guides have been built by various people and placed on the DLS to help place track. One of my favorites is the angle guide. It's over 5 km long and can be rotated to any horizontal angle. With it you can easily place a single track or two tracks exactly 4m apart. There is no physical connection to the track so the guide can me removed without disturbing any track. There are other track guides that 1, 2, 3 or 4 tracks actually attach to at a specific spacing. These guides can then be moved and the the track will follow, keeping its spacing. The main body of these guides are also Surveyor only objects so they are not visible in Driver. Avoid using the double track splines. They can't be straightened and have other annoying features that make them less than ideal.

Many other guides have been developed of the years to solve creation problems and to make it easier to build a world.

As others have said, the shift key will stop splines from joining. In TS2010 you should also use layers to separate similar objects so they don't interfer with each other like signals and switches.

Some platforms are trackside objects and so will always keep the same offset distance, others have tracks built-in which make placing them a breeze.

One thing that you must realize is that even though it is called a train simulator, it is in reality a world builder. You create everything from the track to the hills in the distance and everything in between. IF you don't put it in, it won't be there. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither can a Trainz route. Take your time to enjoy and explore the many parts.
 
Over the years numerous guides have been built by various people and placed on the DLS to help place track. One of my favorites is the angle guide. It's over 5 km long and can be rotated to any horizontal angle. With it you can easily place a single track or two tracks exactly 4m apart. There is no physical connection to the track so the guide can me removed without disturbing any track. There are other track guides that 1, 2, 3 or 4 tracks actually attach to at a specific spacing. These guides can then be moved and the the track will follow, keeping its spacing. The main body of these guides are also Surveyor only objects so they are not visible in Driver.

Has somebody ever made a list of all these track-laying guides? I hear about so many, but most people don't even mention the item name, thus giving no real chance for others to find them.
Even better, is there a tutorial on creating custom guides?

I have found a set of 2-track spacing guides that I use all the time, but they are far from ideal and can be a real p.i.t.a. sometimes. They also have to be removed before I can do any terrain work.
 
can we just let threads that have not have a posting in 6 months just die a natural death ?:(

But what about the fact that the thread is consuming server space and resources any way? Just because a thread is old, it must for ever be abandoned? :confused: :eek: ;)

Regards.
 
frustrated & Disillusioned

I agree with Handlaid track.
I was thinking of of purchasing 2012 after leaving TS2004 a few years ago thinking that it would have improved over the years only to find that it is still using the same old frustrating things that turned me off of 2004, like the ridiculous content selection in surveyor.
The DLS was another that needs changing,although a lot of the problems with that are caused by the creators who don't seem to consider the naming of their creation & where it will get placed as a result of that naming.

I am very sorry to say I will not be buying 2012.

Alan
:( :'(
 
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