Fixing steam loco invisible bogies: I ain't got the slightest clue...

[sawyer811]

I've a pair of beautiful steam engines from Bill Klene (wgkandsk) that I'm head over heels in love with. They look and run great, but the e-sounds on them want to chuff eight times per revolution of the wheels. It is kinda grating and annoying, especially on my custom-painted 2-8-0, since it's exhaust beat is very sharp and loud.

I know there's a way to fix this problem, and I also seem to remember it being stupidly easy. I tried to meddle with the invisible bogies on my other engine, a CB&Q 4-8-4, but only succeeded in making the engine chuff zero times per revolution:hehe: Is there something I'm doing wrong? I know you're supposed to set one quantity to "0" in the config file, but I can't remember which one.

 

[RPearson]

Pretty simple actually. Check the config file of each bogey attached to the steam loco. The main drive wheel bogey should have a "direct-drive 1" tag (without the quotes) in the config as a separate tag. All other bogeys should either have a "direct-drive 0" tag (without the quotes) or no direct-dirve tag which defaults to a 0 value. Edit the configs adding the tag and/or changing its value as necessary.

Bob Pearson

 

[sawyer811]

Hmm...that might be where I'm going off the rails.

Both engines (the 2-8-0 and the 4-8-4) have two Invisible bogies associated with the main drive wheels, one called "direct Drive" and one called "tracking." I have Direct Drive set to "1" and Tracking set to "0" on the 4-8-4 and its still chuffing 8 times per rev. I'm beginning to wonder if the enginesound has anything to do with it.

 

[captainkman]

Hmm...that might be where I'm going off the rails.

Both engines (the 2-8-0 and the 4-8-4) have two Invisible bogies associated with the main drive wheels, one called "direct Drive" and one called "tracking." I have Direct Drive set to "1" and Tracking set to "0" on the 4-8-4 and its still chuffing 8 times per rev. I'm beginning to wonder if the enginesound has anything to do with it.

Hi,

For the 2-8-0:

Set the leading bogie to direct drive 0, the drivers to 1 and the invisible to 0.

For the 4-8-4:

Set the leading and trailing to 0, set the drivers to 1.

The enginespec might need to be changed if problems persist, not the sound.

 

[RPearson]

I'm beginning to wonder if the enginesound has anything to do with it.

Yes it's possible but not likely and my post above isn't just about invisible bogeys - as stated you have to check all bogeys attached to the loco.

For other remote possibilities several things to consider:
What type of engine sounds are you using? Older with just one looping wav or the newer with many looping waves keyed to wheel RPM?
The newer ones have tags that indicate number of cylinders and power strokes of the loco the recordings were made from. Generally 2 cylinder 2 power strokes is the most common and that's the default for these tags so this rarely needs any changing. It's really the responsibility of the content creator and if he got it wrong you'd be better off finding a new enginesound asset to use.

What especs are you using? Newer ones for the new steam physics have 2 tags that effect the exhaust cuffs: in the steam container, number-cylinders and number-power-strokes are used to set the exhaust sound rate. The default values for these are 2 and 2 so are applicable to all 2 cylinder double acting steam engines which covers the vast majority of steam locos. Only in cases like 3 and 4 cylinder locos do you need to use these tags and then as a practical matter only the number-cylinders is really applicable. You could check to see if the espec referenced by the loco's config is using these tags and they have some value other than 2.

You don't give a kuid for the locos you're working with so let's take Bill's PRR H9 2-8-0 for example. If you're using his payware - I don't have acccess to it and if you can't figure it out from the below examples I can't help unless you start posting parts of the configs.

Here's a snippet of Bill's H9 (kuid2:44797:201731:2) config on my system listing all the bogeys attached to it:

bogey                                   <kuid:44797:50071>
bogey-1                                 <kuid:44797:50471>
bogey-2                                 <kuid2:44797:500044:1>
bogey-3                                 <kuid2:44797:500062:1>

Now let's check what the bogey configs say:

kuid                                    <kuid2:44797:50071:1>
username                                "Shunter_I_50071"
kind                                    "bogey"
animdist                                3.39

The above is not the main drive wheel bogey and it has no direct-drive tag so this is correct and no changes are necessary. You could however add a direct-drive 0 tag which would explicitedly indicate the value of the tag if you want.

kuid                                    <kuid2:44797:50471:1>
username                                "Shunter_I_50471"
kind                                    "bogey"
animdist                                1.7
direct-drive                            1

The above is not the main drive wheel bogey but as you can see this has a direct-drive tag set to 1. You must edit this config and change direct-drive 1 to direct-drive 0 then commit it.

username                                "prr_h9_pony_truck"
kuid                                    <kuid2:44797:500044:2>
kind                                    "bogey"
direct-drive                            0
animdist                                2.39

You can see the above bogey is not the main drive wheel bogey and has a direct-drive tag set to 0. This is correct so no changes are necessary.

username                                "PRR_H9_62in_Dia_Drivers"
kuid                                    <kuid2:44797:500062:2>
kind                                    "bogey"
animdist                                4.95
description                             "This is a set of drivers for a PRR H8,9 or 10"

The above bogey is the main drive wheel bogey and it has no direct-drive tag in it. You must edit this config and add direct-drive 1 tag to it and commit it.

That will give you a set of bogeys for the H9 that are correctly set up for the steam engine sounds at least based on the H9 I down loaded.

If you still can't figure it out or are having other problems post back.

Bob Pearson

 

[Bill69]

This problem stems from the fact that these locos were built for TRS2004. The invisible bogey with a direct-drive = 1 tag was used by some creators to give four chuffs per revolution of the driver wheels in TRS2004. Although it did give four chuffs, the chuffs were not always in sync with the drivers. If you are now getting eight chuffs per rev. you could double the anim-dist value in the bogey that is controlling the sound but it still would not always be in sync with the cylinders.
To do a propper fix you will have to change the engine sound and quite likley the engine specs after you correct the bogey configs.

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[BobCass]

sawyer: For what ever its worth..I changed my engine sound on my 4-8-4 to the following: Steam Soundz mod. med. steam Kuid #123250: 1126..and it seemed to work for me..Now I have not changed the engine spec and perhaps I should..

 

[sawyer811]

okay, Bill's idea seemed to fix the Northern, but I'd prefer to have a permanent fix to this problem. Both engines have old TRS2004-era sounds: the PB-15 for the Northern, and I suspect the e-sound from wgkandsk's Mowhawk on the 2-8-0. Mr. Pearson asked to see the configs, So I'll give it a swing:

From the 4-8-4:

bogey <kuid:44797:5274>
bogey-1 <kuid:44797:52740>
bogey-2 <kuid:44797:527400>
bogey-3 <kuid:44797:563222>
bogey-4 <kuid:44797:563211>


in order, those are the Invisible bogey 74 in" tracking, Invisible Bogey 74 in" Direct Drive, the actual drivers (74" diameter), and the lead and trailing pony trucks. The Invisible Tracking bogeys look like this:


username "Drivers 74in Dia CB&Q 4-8-4_INV_TK 5274"
kuid <kuid:44797:5274>
animdist 6
description " "
direct-drive 0
author "Bill Klene (wgkandsk)"
organisation "#"
contact-email
contact-website "
"
kind "bogey"
category-region "US"
category-era "1960s"
category-class "ZX"
trainz-build 2.9
mesh-table
{
default
{
mesh "Driver_Invisible_69in_Dia.im"
auto-create 1
}
}
obsolete-table
{
}
kuid-table
{
}

Followed by the Direct Drives:


username "Drivers 74in Dia CB&Q 4-8-4_INV_DD 527400"
kuid <kuid:44797:52740>
animdist 6
direct-drive 1
description " "
author "Bill Klene (wgkandsk)"
organisation "#"
contact-email
contact-website "
"
license "?J"
kind "bogey"
category-region "US"
category-era "1960s"
category-class "ZX"
trainz-build 2.9
mesh-table
{
default
{
mesh "Driver_Invisible_69in_Dia.im"
auto-create 1
}
}
obsolete-table
{
}
kuid-table
{
}

then finally the actual drivers:

kuid <kuid:44797:527400>
animdist 6
category-region-0 "US"
category-era-0 1960
category-class "AS"
trainz-build 2.4
description
mesh-table
{
default
{
mesh "lod.lm"
auto-create 1
}
}
obsolete-table
{
}
asset-filename "Drivers_74in_Dia CB&Q 4-8-4 kuid_527400 MAIN"
name "Drivers_74in_Dia CB&Q 4-8-4 kuid_527400 MAIN"
username "Drivers_74in_Dia CB&Q 4-8-4 kuid_552740 MAIN"
thumbnail
author "Bill Klene"
organisation "#"
contact-email "
contact-website "
"
license ""
kind "bogey"
kuid-table
{
}

Note that the animdist was originally 3, but was doubled.

 

[Bill69]

Hi sawyer811,

For the main bogey the animdist should be 5.905 and have direct-drive = 1 all other bogeys should have either NO direct-drive tag or have direct-drive = 0.

If this still does not sound right replace the engine sound with kuid2:81997:53009:2 and the engine-spec with kuid2:81997:51039:5

Let me know if that is better,

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[BobCass]

sawyer: Did you ever get your problem solved, with the 4-8-4??

 

[RPearson]

Hoping he wasn't waiting on my reply. I wrote something up yesterday and didn't get a chance to post it.

Sawyer811, Bill69 is correct the animdist is slightly off for 74" drivers. Personally I'd change it to what he indicated. Also as you found out doubling the animdist cuts the cuff rate in half. There's more than one way to skin a cat as they say. Unfortunately way back in TRS2004 we got side tracked because Auran screwed it up pretty badly and content creators looked for work arounds to fix the mess they gave us. Now it's been fixed and we don't need the work arounds. In fact in some special cases the invisble bogey trick leads to situations where the engine sounds in the new sound system won't sync with the drive wheel rotation. In those cases by changing only the animdist of the invisible bogey it can be made to sync with either DCC or CAB modes but not both. Adding/changing direct-drive to 1 on the main drive wheel bogey and to 0 on the invisible bogey is the only way to fix it for both modes. Not a concern for Bill's bogeys here due to the way he made the animation files but something to consider on other locos.

From the 4-8-4:

bogey <kuid:44797:5274>
bogey-1 <kuid:44797:52740>
bogey-2 <kuid:44797:527400>
bogey-3 <kuid:44797:563222>
bogey-4 <kuid:44797:563211>

in order, those are the Invisible bogey 74 in" tracking, Invisible Bogey 74 in" Direct Drive, the actual drivers (74" diameter), and the lead and trailing pony trucks. ...

You should look at the config file for each of the above bogeys and check for correct direct-drive tag use. You should check them all not just invisible bogeys because the fix could have been applied using any bogey and I've seen some locos with several bogeys with a direct-drive 1 tag.

In any case this is what each of the above bogeys should have:
bogey <kuid:44797:5274>, direct-drive 0
bogey-1 <kuid:44797:52740>, direct-drive 0
bogey-2 <kuid:44797:527400>, direct-drive 1
bogey-3 <kuid:44797:563222>, direct-drive 0
bogey-4 <kuid:44797:563211>, direct-drive 0

Note: A missing direct-drive tag is the same as a direct-drive 0 so Bill69's advice is correct here too.

As to new vs old enginesounds, you should be using the new sounds now. For the 4 exhaust cuffs per rev at starting it won't matter (if the sound assets were made correctly) since they both should have 4 single cuff wav files using the same name set up. It will only matter when the looping wav kicks which in the new setup is when the bogey with a direct-drive 1 tag reaches 35 rpm. Most of the old looping wavs don't match the wheel rpm when this happens and there is an obvious mis-match in the sound going from the 4 single cuffs to the looping wav and as it increases in speed.

I was going to add a long write up on another problem with the "new" steam exhaust sounds that happens occasionally but not on any of the bogeys Bill's made for main drive wheels - at least on all those I've looked at. It's pretty technical due to the difference in the way DCC and CAB modes now treat the animdist and not fixable unless you can edit the bogey's animation file which requires using a hexeditor and knowledge of the file format.

But if anyone with TS12 is interested in seeing the effect of it you can look at the built-in N&W Y6b running in TS12. In DCC mode both front and rear drive bogeys rotate in phase and are in sync with the enginesounds. The wheels actually rotate slower than they should based on the speed of the loco but I don't think anyone other an old steam addict like myself would ever notice. Run it again in CAB mode and you can see the rear drive wheels are rotating faster than the front drive wheels. The sounds are in sync with the rear wheels but not the front. The rear drive wheels are actually rotating at the correct speed for the speed of the loco and the front drive wheels are at the slower speed you saw in DCC mode. So you see even N3V can get it wrong. It can't be fixed to work correctly in both modes unless you edit the bogey's .kin file or you (like original content creator) modify the mesh files and re export the animation file.

Bob Pearson

 

[sawyer811]

Thanks to all of you...I actually got them both working! Yahoo! time for some serious fun!

 

[wgkandsk]

Sawyer811:

I happen on the thread. I was not aware you were getting eight chugs per revolution. What is really strange, I am get four per revolution (TRS 09).

I have even a stranger problem. Getting the SP 4-8-2 ready for shipment, I found that when I attached the 482's driver-set to the engine mesh, I completely lost the engine sound. I did some checking and found 482's driver-set worked on other engines and that other driver-sets worked when attached the 482's engine's mesh.

I have been pulling my hair out for the last four days trying to figure out what is going on. I seem to start having this problem as I set up the driver's LOD file.