DVD version

[KenGreen]

It only stops if you cannot log in for 30 days after the last time you logged in, tested here on a DRM'd digital TANE on a disconnected from the Internet PC. The requirement is to login once every 30 days, not every day, obviously the DLS won't work without an internet connection.

Yes but on day 31 after the servers are not working you have no Trainz, this is the point.
N3V may have good intentions but what if a competitor takes over, N3V would have no say in the matter.

Ken

 

[clam1952]

Yes but on day 31 after the servers are not working you have no Trainz, this is the point.
N3V may have good intentions but what if a competitor takes over, N3V would have no say in the matter.

Ken

I've been using Trainz for over 8 years, this rubbish over N3V folding up has been going on every flipping year, it has not happened it probably won't happen and both Tony H and Windwalkr have stated that in the event of the unlikely event happening they would fix it so you can carry on playing. Yes Auran went bankrupt over a non related to Trainz game, did that stop Trainz? no it did not. Pure paranoia, much the same as has infected the UK over the Brexit fiasco.

Competitor take over? N3V is not multibillion dollar company, it's a tiny software company and I've never heard of a hostile takeover of a small independent game company, mergers maybe but not hostile ones! anyway taking over a company to disable it's software and alienate / loose its customers and income, that would be a very stupid move. Need to stop this paranoia over what could happen, do you refuse to leave the house because you could get run over by a bus? of course not but it could happen.

Microsoft could abandon the desktop disable Windows as we know it and go for a cloud only OS, then none of our software would work, which is another Myth circulating on the net in lesser informed quarters.

To be honest, once every 30 days is a better option than every time you start the game as in permanent Internet connection required, which you will get with some companies.

If you want to avoid DRM on a Railway Simulator then you have Open Rails / MSTS. Every thing commercial now has some form of DRM and likewise could using your arguments be taken over and shut down. Steam was developed as a DRM fix to leaked Half-Life Betas and not as was claimed a software distribution platform, I was a tester for Valve at the time. Like all DRM though, it still hasn't solved the problem just makes it harder for the Darkside to circumvent.

When I used to repair PCs, a good 50% of the ones that arrived for repair were using pirated copies of Windows, Office, Photoshop etc etc and people wonder why there is a need for DRM or at least some form of protection of Intellectual Property.

I don't like DRM but I can reluctantly understand why there is a need for it and have accepted it as a necessary evil, It won't solve the piracy issues, however will make it a lot harder for them, especially if activation is done online and not via a serial number.

Don't suppose many if any on here remember the horrible parallel port dongles that Companies like Lightwave and 3DS used to use, however the same protection could be achieved with a USB one, which is the only workable alternative I could come up with and is used in the commercial world.

 

[peterwhite]

I've been using Trainz for over 8 years, this rubbish over N3V folding up has been going on every flipping year, it has not happened it probably won't happen and both Tony H and Windwalkr have stated that in the event of the unlikely event happening they would fix it so you can carry on playing. Yes Auran went bankrupt over a non related to Trainz game, did that stop Trainz? no it did not. Pure paranoia, much the same as has infected the UK over the Brexit fiasco.

Competitor take over? N3V is not multibillion dollar company, it's a tiny software company and I've never heard of a hostile takeover of a small independent game company, mergers maybe but not hostile ones! anyway taking over a company to disable it's software and alienate / loose its customers and income, that would be a very stupid move. Need to stop this paranoia over what could happen, do you refuse to leave the house because you could get run over by a bus? of course not but it could happen.

Microsoft could abandon the desktop disable Windows as we know it and go for a cloud only OS, then none of our software would work, which is another Myth circulating on the net in lesser informed quarters.

To be honest, once every 30 days is a better option than every time you start the game as in permanent Internet connection required, which you will get with some companies.

If you want to avoid DRM on a Railway Simulator then you have Open Rails / MSTS. Every thing commercial now has some form of DRM and likewise could using your arguments be taken over and shut down. Steam was developed as a DRM fix to leaked Half-Life Betas and not as was claimed a software distribution platform, I was a tester for Valve at the time. Like all DRM though, it still hasn't solved the problem just makes it harder for the Darkside to circumvent.

When I used to repair PCs, a good 50% of the ones that arrived for repair were using pirated copies of Windows, Office, Photoshop etc etc and people wonder why there is a need for DRM or at least some form of protection of Intellectual Property.

I don't like DRM but I can reluctantly understand why there is a need for it and have accepted it as a necessary evil, It won't solve the piracy issues, however will make it a lot harder for them, especially if activation is done online and not via a serial number.

Don't suppose many if any on here remember the horrible parallel port dongles that Companies like Lightwave and 3DS used to use, however the same protection could be achieved with a USB one, which is the only workable alternative I could come up with and is used in the commercial world.

I don't know what all this fuss is about. My original question as OP was 'will there be a DRM free version of TS2019' that's all.
In my naivety I assumed there would but it is now fairly plain that there will not so I will be sticking with T:ANE that runs very very well on my computer that does not have, and will not have, an internet connection.

 

[KenGreen]

I've been using Trainz for over 8 years, this rubbish over N3V folding up has been going on every flipping year, it has not happened it probably won't happen and both Tony H and Windwalkr have stated that in the event of the unlikely event happening they would fix it so you can carry on playing. Yes Auran went bankrupt over a non related to Trainz game, did that stop Trainz? no it did not. Pure paranoia, much the same as has infected the UK over the Brexit fiasco.

Competitor take over? N3V is not multibillion dollar company, it's a tiny software company and I've never heard of a hostile takeover of a small independent game company, mergers maybe but not hostile ones! anyway taking over a company to disable it's software and alienate / loose its customers and income, that would be a very stupid move. Need to stop this paranoia over what could happen, do you refuse to leave the house because you could get run over by a bus? of course not but it could happen.

Microsoft could abandon the desktop disable Windows as we know it and go for a cloud only OS, then none of our software would work, which is another Myth circulating on the net in lesser informed quarters.

To be honest, once every 30 days is a better option than every time you start the game as in permanent Internet connection required, which you will get with some companies.

If you want to avoid DRM on a Railway Simulator then you have Open Rails / MSTS. Every thing commercial now has some form of DRM and likewise could using your arguments be taken over and shut down. Steam was developed as a DRM fix to leaked Half-Life Betas and not as was claimed a software distribution platform, I was a tester for Valve at the time. Like all DRM though, it still hasn't solved the problem just makes it harder for the Darkside to circumvent.

When I used to repair PCs, a good 50% of the ones that arrived for repair were using pirated copies of Windows, Office, Photoshop etc etc and people wonder why there is a need for DRM or at least some form of protection of Intellectual Property.

I don't like DRM but I can reluctantly understand why there is a need for it and have accepted it as a necessary evil, It won't solve the piracy issues, however will make it a lot harder for them, especially if activation is done online and not via a serial number.

Don't suppose many if any on here remember the horrible parallel port dongles that Companies like Lightwave and 3DS used to use, however the same protection could be achieved with a USB one, which is the only workable alternative I could come up with and is used in the commercial world.

Malc, I don't want to appear paranoid I was only covering all bases with the point about a takeover. I will assume like you that N3V will release the DRM coding in the event of a liquidation/takeover etc.

Ken

 

[pware]

Further to Malc's excellent response to this "issue", I have been reading up on the DRM strategies that N3V could have implemented, strategies that are used by some game developers. Two of the worst are:-

• Persistent authentication - your computer must be connected to the internet every time you play the game and for the duration of your game play. If the company went "bust" overnight or their servers went down then everyone would be immediately affected - not just 30 days later.
• Incomplete install - your downloaded or disc-based install does not install the complete program. Parts are missing and must be downloaded and installed each time you start the game. Again, no internet access or no servers, then no game-play.

 

[KotangaGirl]

Sure, - I own old game discs from my misspent younger days that are now coasters and (small) frisbees because a server somewhere was taken down and they don't work anymore, - but I don't see that happening with N3V. It's plain when Tony H comes onto the forums that he's enthusiastic about what they are doing with Trainz. It's still early days for TS2019, but somehow it made little Luddite me change my mind and come to like it. I'm not that bothered about a DVD, - out in the garage I have a storage container that's full of old game DVD's and I certainly don't want another one. The digital on-line world is a fact of life and while possibly as a very distant maybe some cataclysmic event could take it out I'm happy to keep on using it because as a largely bedbound invalid it is my connection to the world and all the good things it contains.

 

[RRSignal]

Malc, I don't want to appear paranoid I was only covering all bases with the point about a takeover. I will assume like you that N3V will release the DRM coding in the event of a liquidation/takeover etc.

Ken

I would love one of the DRM-happy folks provide at least one example of that ever happening. It hasn't, because it would assume a bankrupt company would 1. Still have enough money to develop such a patch; 2. it would still have enough money to distribute it; and, most important of all, 3. a bankruptcy court would allow it.

Again, history shows most large, wealthy companies, who DIDN'T even go bankrupt, still didn't release DRM-removal patches when they discontinued their DRM-restricted services. Again, DivX, Yahoo, Walmart, etc. are only a few of many examples. In other words, they didn't face any of the problems a bankrupt company would face, let alone a tiny bankrupt company with limited finances that serves a niche market.

 

[pware]

Looking back through the posts in this forum it seem that I missed a few.

As to my alleged attempts to "deliberately and intentionally" confuse people over the difference between DRM for the DLC and DRM for the TANE/TRS19 program itself, I see no difference between them. Both protect, however imperfectly, the rights of creators.

If you have created your own routes and session, or scenery/rolling stock content, rules, scripts, etc then you would obviously lose all that work once the DRM servers become unavailable (for whatever reason). Likewise any DLC items you have "purchased" would also be unusable.

People who get confused over the meaning of "ownership" when it comes to software and data need to go back and read the EULA. We do not own the software, we have been granted a licence to use it from the owners (N3V) for as long as they allow us to use it and under their T&Cs (terms and conditions). If you have created data files (routes, sessions, scripts, etc) that will only work in their supplied software that they have granted you the rights to use under their T&Cs, then you must accept the risk that your right to use the software, and therefore access to your data, can be revoked at any time and for any reason. This is regardless of the fact that you legally own the data you have created using their software - but you do not own the software that creates or uses your data.

I use other software that have propriety data formats that only work in that software, the use of which has been granted to me under similar T&Cs. I take the risk each time I use my created data that the software owner may legally demand that I remove their software at any time thus making my data useless.

We have been informed, in this and similar threads, that some gaming companies have simply turned off their DRM servers making it impossible for gamers to continue using a particular product from that company. It has also been mentioned that this is a common tactic to force consumers to "upgrade" to a newer product. I have no doubt that this goes on in the gaming, and other, industries. But again it is in all probability quite legal. Unless the EULA you accepted when you clicked "Install" (or similar) stated that you can use the software in perpetuity and any data you create using that software will also be fully usable and accessible in perpetuity, then you have no recourse.

If you don't like the T&Cs imposed by a software product then don't use it.

 

[RRSignal]

As to my alleged attempts to "deliberately and intentionally" confuse people over the difference between DRM for the DLC and DRM for the TANE/TRS19 program itself, I see no difference between them. Both protect, however imperfectly, the rights of creators.

If you have created your own routes and session, or scenery/rolling stock content, rules, scripts, etc then you would obviously lose all that work once the DRM servers become unavailable (for whatever reason). Likewise any DLC items you have "purchased" would also be unusable.

The two statements contradict each other. How does a DRM system that would cause you to lose all of your OWN work "protect, however imperfectly, the rights of creators"?

Nevertheless, regardless of how you see it, there are, in fact, two distinct and separate DRM systems. The DLC content-level DRM system was introduced with TS12 SP1. T:ANE also had this in all versions, but did not have whole-game DRM in certain versions, known within the community as "DRM-free" (though, technically, all versions of T:ANE had DRM: In the "DRM-free" versions, the game-level DRM could be overridden, but the DLC-level system could never be.)

 

[Christopher824]

Looking back through the posts in this forum it seem that I missed a few.

If you have created your own routes and session, or scenery/rolling stock content, rules, scripts, etc then you would obviously lose all that work once the DRM servers become unavailable (for whatever reason). Likewise any DLC items you have "purchased" would also be unusable.

They said the Titanic was unsinkable. N3V assumes the internet is unbreakable for anybody at any location at any given time in space.

If you don't like the T&Cs imposed by a software product then don't use it.

Well, do we have a choice? I like this product and I am not being given a choice. Look at all the iPhone users. They always agree with the T&C with their tails a waggin without ever reading any of it every time a new iteration comes out, and I will do the same with Trainz. Does it make it right> no. Is it a good business model. Not for me, but maybe for the masses it makes them money.

 

[pware]

I can see that we are never going to agree on this, except that DRM is not an ideal copy protection method. But that is the nature of individual opinions and views.

How does a DRM system that would cause you to lose all of your OWN work "protect, however imperfectly, the rights of creators"?

Because your rights to create your data, using a product created by a third party, are not independent of the rights of that third party. If Leonardo da Vinci had painted the Mona Lisa on a canvas that he had rented from someone else and the owner of the canvas then wanted his property back, the fact that the canvas was now covered in paint that was the creative output of an artist would not matter. He would be legally required to give it back. The creators being protected here are the owners of the software and the creators of the assets (data) supplied with the software when it was installed or downloaded from the DLC or the DLS.

Well, do we have a choice? I like this product and I am not being given a choice. Look at all the iPhone users. They always agree with the T&C with their tails a waggin without ever reading any of it every time a new iteration comes out, and I will do the same with Trainz. Does it make it right> no. Is it a good business model. Not for me, but maybe for the masses it makes them money.

Loved your iPhone users analogy! How many of us spend the time reading the EULA of every software product we install? I certainly don't. But ignorance is no excuse under the law and that is how companies protect themselves when it comes to a fight with consumers over their rights. "It is all covered in the T&C, which of course you did read" which makes the customer out to be a double fool.

Good and bad business practices are very vague concepts in business. What is good for the shareholders can be bad for the clients, and vice versa. Google, Facebook, etc using perfectly legal means to shift all their profits to low tax countries is good for their shareholders and, they would argue, keeps the prices low for consumers so everyone is a winner - right? Here we have just had a massive official investigation (a "Royal Commission", or in your terminology, a "Congressional Inquiry") into the business practices and wrong-doings of the banking and finance industries. The results have been eye-opening - fees charged for financial advice given to dead clients, for example. The lawyers will now argue over whether that particular "unethical" practice, amongst the many others uncovered, is legal or not.

We always have a choice. With Trainz you can continue to use versions that do not have any DRM installed, or you can decide to go somewhere else. N3V are under no legal obligation to supply all users with DRM or copyright protection free software. They will have to make the decision themselves on the risks of going in either direction. Right now, despite the complaints, in my opinion at least they seem to have the balance right - as per my previous post it could have been a lot worse (the alternatives could have been persistent authentication and incomplete install) .

In my investigations of this DRM issue, I did come across one item worth noting. One game developer, Ubisoft, as an experiment dropped their use of online authentication DRM for the release of Prince of Persia. Industry sources noted that the game had over 23,000 illegal downloads from two torrents servers in a 24 hr period.

 

[ldowns]

I find it strange, all this discussion about "when the N3V DRM servers [permanently] fail" and users are no longer able to use their Trainz routes and creations. To me the very obvious solution is to stop using Trainz right now and avoid all the future pain and frustration. You could also argue that it would have been even better to have never started using Trainz in the first place. Oops, too late!

Speaking of carrying out an argument ad absurdum. Why should I quit using Trainz just because the newest version is based on a foundation of sand? I'll stick with my DRM-free T:ANE SP3 (or SP4 if it proves to fix anything I need fixed). That PC isn't even connected to the internet. No version of Trainz I've ever used up until now required that and I'm not about to shell out money for one that does.

This and other DRM threads have already covered all the possibilities and their consequences (to death IMHO). I don't believe that the vast majority of Trainz users really care and the issue does not seem to have affected N3Vs sales which, according to Tony, are exceeding all expectations. So what is the point of these "doom and gloom" posts?

To advise N3V that they are alienating a segment of their user base, and in many cases some of their oldest and most loyal customers. That's how companies self-destruct; nobody says they have to listen. Why are you so intent on evangelizing for DRM? If you're happy with the current situation why the endless repetition of the same arguments? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" (from Hamlet, for those who care).

If they (the anti-DRM posters) are attempting to badger N3V into changing their minds and dropping DRM, then they need to come up with an alternative that will keep the DLC and built in content creators happy.

From some of the posts I see here, not all content creators are all that happy with the current situation...

As for the sales numbers of TS2019, I don't think that's quite as meaningful as it may sound. I purchased T:ANE version 1.0 but didn't even bother to install it for several years, until enough bug fixes were done that the eager beaver early adopters were no longer crying in their beer about all the problems they were having. I bought it to support N3V as at that time it was clear that every copy sold helped finance the necessary fixes. With the DRM-only TS2019 they've lost that good will on my part and I don't plan to buy a copy. Why should I? As long as it requires an internet connection I won't ever install it, regardless of how many SPs come out.

--Lamont

 

[RRSignal]

Because your rights to create your data, using a product created by a third party, are not independent of the rights of that third party. If Leonardo da Vinci had painted the Mona Lisa on a canvas that he had rented from someone else and the owner of the canvas then wanted his property back, the fact that the canvas was now covered in paint that was the creative output of an artist would not matter. He would be legally required to give it back. The creators being protected here are the owners of the software and the creators of the assets (data) supplied with the software when it was installed or downloaded from the DLC or the DLS.

First, I'd recommend looking up easement law: It's far different than you think. At worst, the painter would have to buy a new canvas, and that's assuming the painter painted without any encouragement or permission from the owner of the canvas. N3V encourages content creation and makes many of the tools available to do so.

Moreover, also, there are thousands of Trainzers, who, collectively have put tens of millions of hours into content. While the time and effort N3V put into developing the code is substantial, it's likely orders of magnitude less than what the community has spent on building content. I'd be happy to go over some math if you'd like, but your argument is simply that protecting N3V's intellectual property is more important than protecting those of thousands of users and content creators.

 

[pware]

Congratulations Lamont. You have stated you views and I hope that you can stick to them.

No one is being forced to purchase any version of Trainz that they do not want or like, that is free choice.

I will take to task your claim that I am evangelising DRM. Far from it, as I have stated in several of my posts, it is an imperfect solution to the problem of protecting the rights of creators. But, if stating that or asking for DRM critics (of which I am one) to come up with acceptable alternatives is evangelising, then I am guilty.

 

[RRSignal]

Here's an alternative: Retain the DLC-level DRM system that's been in place since TS12 SP1, and get rid of the whole-game DRM. That way, the DRM fans are happy, the payware creators think their content is safe, and the rest of us don't have to worry about our own works being disabled. The DRM-free versions of T:ANE already proved this model.

 

[pware]

First, I'd recommend looking up easement law: It's far different than you think.

Not sure what you mean. Easement law here in AUS means the right of utilities such as gas, water and electricity to enter your property for the purpose of reading meters and carrying out essential works.

 

[RRSignal]

In the U.S., easement defines the rights of any party, public or private, to reasonable access to another's property, particularly if the possessor has granted such access previously or enabled it in some fashion. There are also other protections and regulations, as well.

 

[amigacooke]

As a macOS user, my Deluxe edition of MacTANE was supplied on a USB memory stick in a tin. However, from memory, it wasn't DRM free, there weren't enough macOS users apparently for a separate build.