Does Trainz Have a Future?

[Ferngren]

Snipped...
Just off topic a second, when I'm playing TRS2006 I always get the 'Fatal Exception' screen but only when I close the program down. If Auran could bring out a product that didn't have 'Fatal Exception's' all the time, all might be forgiven.

My own fix to this since long, has been to use Esc-key when exit from Driver, Railyard and Surveyor instead of clicking on exit or quit. When coming to the last screen before exiting to desktop, I wait a good 10 seconds before hitting Esc otherwise it may hung.

I have to agree with big b here, CMP works best off-line without the whole DLS in the TAD. It so easily get corrupted otherwise. I've had very few problems since I started to use the DL Pro. Also, never ever run faulty content -even if it seem fine at first - crashes may come later.

 

[Boco]

johnwhelan -

I read Padster's remarks as tongue-in-cheek. Perhaps differently then you.

Boco

 

[johnwhelan]

johnwhelan -

I read Padster's remarks as tongue-in-cheek. Perhaps differently then you.

Boco

If it was please then please take my reply as being tongue in cheek as well.
:wave:
Cheerio John

 

[johnwhelan]

Here's a quick summary of some (not recommended) last resorts I sometimes use when experiencing difficulty...

If CMP fails to start I ctrl+alt+del to see if there is another instance of ContentManager running amongst the processes and end it if there is.

If it seems to have forgotten my login or think I have no FCT etc I check that my C:/Progra~/Auran/TC/Settings folder hasn't any content set to read-only. Then I ensure that the login details are entered.

If it still can't connect I make sure there's no firewall dramas etc.

If it even still can't connect I sometimes choose "Use Internet Explorer Settings" in the CMP settings internet tab which sometimes helps.

If it seems to crash frequently then usually I am on a machine that is chocka block full of DLS content. Sometimes it helps in those situations to go to C:/Progra~/Auran/TRS2006/ and delete the assets.tdx and cache folder; because occasionally the database becomes corrupted for unknown reasons. You need to run TRS2006 after deleting those things before launching CMP again; and it may take a long time to start TRS2006 that first time after deleting the database.

For anyone who missed my previous post, these are things I have noted about running CMP on a wide variety of machines and configurations.

Hope this helps someone.

~R~

Chirs Nawlins eventually tried"

In settings/miscellaneous there is a check box
'suppress update data base at start up'. This box was checked in TC and obviously was preventing TC from seeing anything.

I unchecked it and Download Helper came to life. I had to close and re launch TC to get it to see the DLS but it's all running now."

So perhaps that could be added in as a possible solution.

Thanks John

 

[sethmcs]

Somehow CMP has to be separated from Trainz, in order for all of us to get on the same page.

Ed

I agree 100% and might add that the future verision also needs to be backwards compatable as well to make all content available to the new verision.

 

[paulhobbs]

I agree 100% and might add that the future verision also needs to be backwards compatable as well to make all content available to the new verision.

Not a chance in hell of that. You want a new version to be compatible with the thousands of busted assets on the DLS and elsewhere? I thought it was clear that TC is faster and smoother because it doesn't attempt to do this.

Fix the faulty assets or delete them and you'll certainly have less problems.

Paul

 

[SVAndrei]

Not a chance in hell of that. You want a new version to be compatible with the thousands of busted assets on the DLS and elsewhere? I thought it was clear that TC is faster and smoother because it doesn't attempt to do this.

Fix the faulty assets or delete them and you'll certainly have less problems.

Paul

True. Backwards compatibility is at this stage impossible. TRS 06 already has issues with it. I try (and manage) to fix most of my content. I mean, most of the time is just some misused tag. It's dead easy, even with CCP. There are tutorials out there, so anyone can do it.

 

[meridious]

You want a new version to be compatible with the thousands of busted assets on the DLS and elsewhere?

Sure, why not ? We have to work with busted software all the time. :hehe: I'm not just talking about Trainz either. Every software company puts out busted software in one shape or another.

I've personally never worked with any other software or game where you had to apply an update or patch to a fresh install. I'm not a software writer and don't pretend to be. If I was, I would have surely used a better "patching" system than the one used for this.

As for cmp itself, I find it very slow in doing what I am trying to achieve. Not to mention that CMP and CCP are computer hogs. Maybe not now with TC but with 06 it sure is. CMP is also the biggest reason why I am staying clear of any future Trainz release. From the beginning of cmp, I said then that it should have been optional and not mandatory.

Here's a good solution to broken content...........

Since CMP reads a cdp file and lets you know if it is faulty or not, this could be done. Write into cmp that if it finds faulty content, not to allow it into the game at all. Oh wait, there are some of you thinking that it wouldn't work. Sure it would. Anything can be done if there is someone to do it. But then again it wouldn't work cause then we really wouldn't have a need for the dls would we ?

You all seem to forget that TC wasn't even aimed at those of us that have been around for awhile. It was aimed at an entirely new market. So when CMP hangs up the first time these "new" people use it, alot of them aren't going to be too interested in keeping the software. Especially now when the dls is having all the problems it has been as of late. Some will persist but many will just toss it. Those that do toss it will do nothing but tell their friends to stay away from it.

I guess what kills me the most about the issues or non issues with cmp is that no matter what happens at any given time.........it's always the end users fault. No matter what the software is, it's usually the same result. If it doesn't work then you are doing something wrong.

Now the dls is a different story. It is tired, has been through a crash and is in desperate need of an overhaul. Now that there are only what 4 people left at auran working on Trainz, the dls is sorely neglected. They weren't very concerned before about getting it taken care of because they were more worried about getting Fury out the door. Now they don't seem to have the time and/or resources to do it.

 

[sethmcs]

Not a chance in hell of that. You want a new version to be compatible with the thousands of busted assets on the DLS and elsewhere? I thought it was clear that TC is faster and smoother because it doesn't attempt to do this.

Fix the faulty assets or delete them and you'll certainly have less problems.

Paul

Why can't software fix the problems? Maybe I am naive about such matters but isn't as simple as this. Read cdp file and compare to acceptable format. If cdp is not acceptable make it acceptable. I am no programmer and I don't want to fix content! I still believe that third party software could be the solution here. Trainz Objects fixes content for TRS2004. I bet it could be improved to fix content for other versions as well. Provide asset fixing software outside of the game then get rid of the CMP and free up system resources.

 

[paulhobbs]

Why can't software fix the problems? Maybe I am naive about such matters but isn't as simple as this. Read cdp file and compare to acceptable format. If cdp is not acceptable make it acceptable. I am no programmer and I don't want to fix content! I still believe that third party software could be the solution here. Trainz Objects fixes content for TRS2004. I bet it could be improved to fix content for other versions as well. Provide asset fixing software outside of the game then get rid of the CMP and free up system resources.

The software can't fix all of the problems in the assets because some are so screwed up it's impossible to second guess what the author really intended. What are you going to do about misspelled tags? Make a guess about what it should be?

TrainzObjects attempts to fix assets and sometimes fails miserably, I don't see that anything else could do a perfect job. If you don't want to fix content get on to the author and get them to fix it. That way it only gets fixed once on the DLS and not 10000 times on the end user's machine.

I'm willing to bet I use CMP a lot more than most people and I've had very few problems with it, even at the beta stage. CMP is the best bit of TRS2006 by a long way, and as it's the front end to TAD it's responsible for the enormous improvement in the startup speed of TRS, not to mention the fact that it makes the production of error-free content (or the correction of faulty content) much easier than it was before.

Paul

 

[Barry]

Just like to add to clarify my previous posts for (VISTA plus CMP plus Classics)

Nothing to do with the download station.
Nothing to do with XP.
Nothing to do with trs2006 as never used it.
Nothing to do with trs2004 as no problems with it.
Nothing to do with running default routes in classics with Vista as no problems with them.

CMP is required to commit content for Surveyor, as far as I know, and as such with all the "fixes" I had used was unusable and route making was impossible.
Computer new 8600 gts.

Again academic post only (past tense), as no longer asociated with trainz as regards its sofware or use of it's sofware for further content making.
Post just to clarify my previous posts.
Details in previous posts


Barry

 

[Rob]

Paul is right, it would be marvellous to have the software correct all the issues automatically; but it would take an enormous effort to provide something that usably understands what to do when it finds an error.

Provided a fix can be derived from the contents of the asset, it could start altering values, image sizes etc to it's heart's content only to change the asset into something other than intended.

In some cases things are missing from the 3D mesh itself such as attachment points; in some cases texture files, coronas etc are missing; some items refer to other items that are no longer available anywhere. The list goes on.

Once a broken asset is loaded into the game the code can make decisions about how to work around the errors, but in many cases it has to go to considerable lengths to compensate for them.

After a while, the code will bump into an asset that it really hates or become bogged down working around errors. This often results in Auran receiving a host of messages and complaints, reports of bugs, "I am going back to the old version" etc.

So basically the less time we spend debugging issues related to faulty items, the more time we can spend fixing real bugs.

I doubt if there's a creator here who for whatever reason hasn't introduced an erroneous item at some stage. I have done it heaps of times. As a creator it's not something you need to be ashamed of, but it's something you should strictly avoid.

Cheers!

~R~

 

[sethmcs]

Does this mean there is no vetting process on DLS?

Rob,

Does this mean there is no vetting process on the DLS? I thought when items are uploaded that they are checked before being downloaded. I have thousands of items of content yet my TRS2004 works fine. I use Trainz Objects every once in a while to scan assets and fix broken stuff if its easy. Messages like your missing a "bracket" somewhere I ignor and it doesn't seem to make a difference to my computer or Trainz. Does that missing bracket make a real difference?

 

[johnwhelan]

Paul is right, it would be marvellous to have the software correct all the issues automatically; but it would take an enormous effort to provide something that usably understands what to do when it finds an error.

Provided a fix can be derived from the contents of the asset, it could start altering values, image sizes etc to it's heart's content only to change the asset into something other than intended.

In some cases things are missing from the 3D mesh itself such as attachment points; in some cases texture files, coronas etc are missing; some items refer to other items that are no longer available anywhere. The list goes on.

Once a broken asset is loaded into the game the code can make decisions about how to work around the errors, but in many cases it has to go to considerable lengths to compensate for them.

After a while, the code will bump into an asset that it really hates or become bogged down working around errors. This often results in Auran receiving a host of messages and complaints, reports of bugs, "I am going back to the old version" etc.

So basically the less time we spend debugging issues related to faulty items, the more time we can spend fixing real bugs.

I doubt if there's a creator here who for whatever reason hasn't introduced an erroneous item at some stage. I have done it heaps of times. As a creator it's not something you need to be ashamed of, but it's something you should strictly avoid.

Cheers!

~R~

There is an issue though with expecting the content creator to fix content and that is the DLS count goes back to zero.

Now the interesting thing is that since all the old versions are held on the DLS with their download counts it should be possible to show the total number of downloads for all versions. Drop in 86627:1711 into a kuid search atd you'll see what I mean.

Tafweb's tool does quite a nice job of picking out the most popular downloads, can anyone think of a way to pick up and total all the downloads of all the versions? Might be useful to show the most popular downloads.

Even if we can't we can at least say to content creators that if you upload a corrected version the total downloads are held on the DLS.

Auran should be able to run something down the DLS to pull off the kuid number and downloads even the normal hidden ones so that a report can be made up.

The other suggestion I would make is that faulty assets that appear to have been abandoned ie the creator hasn't logged onto the DLS or forum for a year could be corrected and a new version issued with a comment in the description that the item has been corrected to resolve problems. This couldn't be done for items that need the GMAX sorting out but quite a few items are config.txt file problems. Or possibly TARL might help here http://tarl.trainz.ws/

It makes more sense to me to have the item fixed once than have 10,000 people go to Tarl. Perhaps a compromise would be to send the creator a suggested new version and ask them to upload it?

Alex23 seems to have done nicely as a one man band. However is there a war to move forward from an item to the corrected version if it is under a different kuid?

Cheerio John

 

[Natvander]

Rob,

Does this mean there is no vetting process on the DLS? I thought when items are uploaded that they are checked before being downloaded. I have thousands of items of content yet my TRS2004 works fine. I use Trainz Objects every once in a while to scan assets and fix broken stuff if its easy. Messages like your missing a "bracket" somewhere I ignor and it doesn't seem to make a difference to my computer or Trainz. Does that missing bracket make a real difference?

That 'innocent' missing bracket can certainly ruin an asset.

Take the following example...

mesh-table {
default {
mesh "mesh.im"
auto-create 1
effects {
effect1 {
kind "attachment"
att "a.cabcentre"
default-mesh <kuid:61119:1170>
}
}
}
fan {
mesh "fan.im"
anim "fan.kin"
att "a.fanblade01"
auto-create 1
}
flow_needle {
kind "needle"
mesh "switch.im"
att "a.bpflow_needle"
limits 0,300
att-parent "default"
auto-create 1
effects {
lever {
kind "attachment"
att "a.atthere"
default-mesh <kuid:61119:1180>
}
}
}
username "blah blah"
........


The mesh table is missing its last bracket, meaning the mesh table isn't closed. All entries after the last bracket are considered to be part of the mesh table, and as 'username' (and all further tags) is not intended to be in a mesh table, it will be flagged as an error.

Picking up a missing bracket in a basic mesh table is easy, but when you start getting more complicated tables (such as locos, cabs etc) it becomes alot harder.

 

[Euphod]

As we all know CMP in 2006 and TC is already ignoring faulty content, of the "built in" variety.

If CMP can be instructed to ignore that, then it's logical to assume that it can be instructed to ignore any category of content with faults. From there, it doesn't seem a huge leap of faith to be able to adjust by percentage how many pieces of content are to be given a pass.

I propose making the package with every improvement to the code as possible, and letting the user decide what content to use. They may decide to fix nothing, and then continue on, or they may decide to fix everything to conform to the new code. It's better than losing all the access to the content available right now, and it's pretty much what people are doing now anyway. It removes CMP as a pitchfork, and once folks see that locally repaired content can allow for new features, it adds a seductive drawing point. In addition; knowing the "whack jobs" here like I do, there will be endless posts of benchmarking content, if it's an advantage or not, and the like.

Of course, this is all my opinion only, and I salivate at the thought of being proved wrong.

Ed

 

[chrisracer8903]

I totally agree with you Euphod. We need to keep Trainz with backwards compatability because it's the content avalible now that also keeps people drawn to this game insted of the new sims like Rail Simulator. The option you suggest Euphod should be used in future Trainz releases. -Chris

 

[AJ_Fox]

I hope this software that will fix all the errors is multilingual.

Cheers

AJ

 

[thegrindre]

Here's a quick summary of some (not recommended) last resorts I sometimes use when experiencing difficulty...

If CMP fails to start I ctrl+alt+del to see if there is another instance of ContentManager running amongst the processes and end it if there is.

If it seems to have forgotten my login or think I have no FCT etc I check that my C:/Progra~/Auran/TC/Settings folder hasn't any content set to read-only. Then I ensure that the login details are entered.

If it still can't connect I make sure there's no firewall dramas etc.

If it even still can't connect I sometimes choose "Use Internet Explorer Settings" in the CMP settings internet tab which sometimes helps.

If it seems to crash frequently then usually I am on a machine that is chocka block full of DLS content. Sometimes it helps in those situations to go to C:/Progra~/Auran/TRS2006/ and delete the assets.tdx and cache folder; because occasionally the database becomes corrupted for unknown reasons. You need to run TRS2006 after deleting those things before launching CMP again; and it may take a long time to start TRS2006 that first time after deleting the database.

For anyone who missed my previous post, these are things I have noted about running CMP on a wide variety of machines and configurations.

Hope this helps someone.

~R~

These are the words I hated;
If CMP fails to start...
If it seems to have forgotten my login...
If it still can't connect...
If it even still can't connect...
If it seems to crash frequently...


And, this, is the absolute reason(s) I chucked '06 in the trash and am using '04 exclusively, now.

Thank you for reminding me of all of the headaches I once had. I will never purchase any later version of Trainz again with CMP.
Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me...

 

[amigacooke]

Can't say I've ever had any more problems with TRS06 than I had with TRS04. Therefore, I will happily purchase Trainz Classics 3 and hopefully enjoy the promised enhanced steam loco performance and the ability to use different passenger sets on the stations.