Do we need a new game engine?

johnwhelan

Well-known member
I know it comes up from time to time but it appears pixel density is increasing a couple of years ago 1440 by 900 was a reasonable monitor these days the tablets are using higher pixel densities and the monitors are following suit. These days 2560 x 1600 is not uncommon and there is a move to 4K. Recent box cars have been 15,000 polys even with lod they are still a 1,000 polys. Even Auran payware for example the duchess pack the coaches are 5,000+ polys on the lowest lod and 15,000 on the more detailed one.

So the question comes up will the existing game engine be able to cope or will there be a parting of the ways, Trainz on the low end machines and something else on the newer high end machines? DirectX 11 needs Win 7 or Win 8 for a start.

Just an idle thought.

Cheerio John
 
Asus and other companies now have 3840x2160 monitors available or 8,294,400 pixels which compares to 1,296,000 pixels for a 1440 by 900 display.

Cheerio John
 
Download "World of Tanks (free to play) and run a couple of games and look at the scenery. This engine is way behind times.
 
Has anyone here considered the effect on both the market share and the finances? Bear in mind that a more advanced game engine would need more advanced computers, which not everyone can afford so those that cannot afford such a system would no longer be able to play the simulator (which would lead to a loss of custom for N3V)

Shane
 
If TS09, 10 and 12 work on older machines then it is quite reasonable to assume they will continue to do so while appropriate computer parts are available. That may be a problem. Can you still buy floppy disks? USB sticks are so cheap that floppies are dinosaurs.

I still have Zork games that I refuse to throw out. :hehe: Zork games, and especially the non graphical versions, required imagination to play.

Personally I'm all for looking at new game engines if it improves the quality of the simulation. I would also like to continue making assets for such a system.
 
Has anyone here considered the effect on both the market share and the finances? Bear in mind that a more advanced game engine would need more advanced computers, which not everyone can afford so those that cannot afford such a system would no longer be able to play the simulator (which would lead to a loss of custom for N3V)

Shane

Sliders should handle this. Of course some customers will jam them to the right on their $300 laptop and demand a fluid experience.

You have to question the need for a new base software system. People who use the program as a game may not need the better graphics to achieve published scores. They buy DLC addons perhaps more than the hard core types who are always looking for a more real experience. If, this time next year N3V has not moved to new technology the Open Rails FREE simulator should have graphics equal or better than the existing Trainz. If they were not using the low end graphics I may have jumped on their system. But I just can't stand using something that looks so ancient.
 
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Agreed, although even with sliders there are bound to be some who will not be able to run the game even on the lowest settings.

Shane
 
I seem to remember NOT upgrading to 2006 from 2004, because of all the complaints
about a "useless CMP" that didn't work & "we were better off with 'Tafwebs' program 'TrainzObjectz' running things". ;)
 
Hi everybody.
With the sales of PCs down by over a third in the last year or so, you have to wonder whether the development of a new game engine would be worthwhile or profitable for N3V. Outside of tablets the development in the computer market is most definitely around smart TVs. We have just bought one which has full Internet access meaning I can even Google the Trainz forum and read the postings from the comfort of my front room sofa. The salesperson who demonstrated the television to us talked of it being Quad core with God knows how many pixels to the screen. All the technical information completely baffled me and the wife but on getting it home and setting it up I have to say it really is amazing for not just being a television but an all-round entertainment system pulling films and videos seamlessly from YouTube and other video sites when requested by just talking instructions to it.

for my money I would develop a version of trainz for smart televisions as these are the PCs of the future. Think of it, sat driving your favourite consists or developing your route from the comfort of your armchair in front of your huge crystal clear smart television screen.

It has to be the future
Bill
 
Has anyone here considered the effect on both the market share and the finances? Bear in mind that a more advanced game engine would need more advanced computers, which not everyone can afford so those that cannot afford such a system would no longer be able to play the simulator (which would lead to a loss of custom for N3V)

Shane

As I said "So the question comes up will the existing game engine be able to cope or will there be a parting of the ways, Trainz on the low end machines and something else on the newer high end machines? DirectX 11 needs Win 7 or Win 8 for a start." possibly the market may split and N3V will own the low end.

There is very definitely a move to denser monitors which implies a market for a higher end sim, whether N3V will address it or not I don't know but I suspect someone will, there is too much money involved in creating the demand for the monitors with more pixels.

640 by 480 monitors were amazing stuff when they came out but the hardware has moved on.

Cheerio John
 
Gadgets and tablets are not a lot of use for those of us who build routes and assets which is probably what 50 % of users do. We are not all obsessed with giant screens, in fact I find they are totally unrealistic. PC sales are only down due to the "Email and browse, need to announce every visit to the toilet on farcebook or tweet it to to the Twits, using a simpler gadget option that they can carry around. It's a fad, much as the CB radio obsession became in the UK a while back and will vanish when some new toy aimed at the brainless comes along. I reckon it will be some form of holographic communication gizmo. :hehe:

Those who actually use PC's to their full extent will not be dumping them any time soon and will still be purchasing them, all that's happened is the market has lost the portion of the market that just play on social media. That's of course if you accept market figures as being accurate and not fiddled by the likes of Apple Microsoft and the other gadget makers by their attempts to push people in the direction they think is beneficial to their profit margins.
 
Isn't this the same argument from back then about whether or not we should ditch those rubbish built-in bogies in consideration for the lower end bunch?
 
The thing you have to ask yourself is what are the payoff's and what are the pitfalls.

Some of the game engines do not cater for every type of game, so we may end up with another Railworks type of a train sim. If we have stunning graphics but a useless AI system, we might as well give up all together.
Even if the AI worked would all the content be transferable, as we moan even now about TS12 being fully patched, and annoying the hell out of us, with problems and verifying everything, every time something go's wrong.
Their would definitely be a lot of things that we would lose, but we would gain some back at least, in a few years time, I can see that a lot of people would lose interest, with a lack of interaction with the game which we have at the moment as it now stands.
The main thing is could N3V stand the exodus of the rail fans, until it becomes good enough to come back too?
 
Trainz is both blessed and cursed by the community-created content business model. On the one hand, we have a huge range of content covering a vast range of prototypes, and it's possible to put together some fantastic routes, running exquisitely detailed models. On the other hand, this community-based approach means that the game engine has to cope with some hugely inefficient models that haven't been optimised like professionally produced game assets. Latest versions have introduced many features to make the game more efficient, such as mesh stitching, libraries, DXT compression etc, and look better but the game will always struggle as long as there's a huge base of inefficient content (some of mine included) in use.

N3V appears to be doing its best to improve standards by more stringent error checking, but the recent fuss about single colour textures and thumbnails demonstrates that there appears to be a bit of community resistance to these steps. The lack of rigid standards in the early days may well be a factor- I contrast this to the original guides for registered creators for Rail Simulator, which were pretty prescriptive. Trainz has always made content creation much more accessible, but at the cost that inefficient content can find its way onto the DLS fairly easily.

In my opinion, a route that is built entirely from assets built to modern standards, with properly configured LOD, mesh libraries, environment and normal-mapped materials, baked shadows etc. has the potential to look and perform as well as many more modern games- albeit without some of the fancy environmental effects. To achieve the highest standards requires rigorous discipline on the part of the route builder, with very careful asset choices, judicious use of repetition (many routes seem to use an enormous palette of materials and assets, when one that is already used elsewhere in the route may be close enough to achieve a good effect at less cost to performance). All of this can easily be ruined by a few poor performers such as a station lamp with many thousands of polys, huge, single colour textures and no LOD. Although there are some pretty good routes out there, I don't think it would be possible to put together one to the standards I've described without some serious effort, probably from a team, to put together a set of efficient, route specific assets.

Most of the time we're happy to sacrifice some of these inefficiencies for a good looking end result, and I think it's a testament to the performance of the game engine that it manages as well as it does in the face of all the rubbish that we sometimes throw at it.

R3
 
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