Do we need a new game engine?

[j_maybury]

At the moment I see the jet game engine likened to a plug socket that is heaving with double and treble plug adaptors fastened to it, that is ready to blow at any moment, every time you add a new item or change an old item to it, half a dozen other items previously bolted onto it immediately fail.

The only solution I can see is to start up with a new games engine while still running the old one.

 

[metalangel]

I don't see anything wrong with just admitting the time has come to draw a line under the old tech and start from scratch. I still have multiple sims installed and I run them based on what I feel like driving. If I want London & Port Stanley or BrisCard v6, I play MSTS. If I want the Northern Line or Cross City South I play BVE.

Now there's going to be DLC Simulator 2014 in September as RSC keep trying to patch up their increasingly decrepit old game engine, even though they then have to withdraw a ton of content to bring it up to the new standard (read: add a windshield that gets wet when it rains) they've set.

I worry that maybe N3V just don't have the money to start over when they can keep adding to the existing foundation of Trainz, but it's resulted in a Frankenstein's monster of a sim.

 

[j_maybury]

That is ok if you have pots of spare cash to throw around but many of us are old, and on low incomes. I know that BVE is free but the others add up to a expensive hobby.

What I'm hoping is that N3V have already started to get the assets slowly to a point where they can cross most of them over to a new game engine that I hope there already working on............ Well I can Hope at least, can't I?

 

[CRO]

It is a conundrum for N3V. I am one of the less than 50% who just "drive". I can't even hammer a nail into a block of wood straight to save my life, let alone create a route or scenario. I have kept Trainz patched up to the very latest, and even log in to keep all the in game updating current. However, I haven't "driven" a train for months. Whenever I flash up the game, I am immediately disappointed in the graphics, and usually just close it down. (I even changed to X-Plane 10 from FSX for much the same reason).
As for me buying any more DLC from N3V, well, it won't happen, because despite all the detail etc, it is still visually hampered by an old graphic engine.
(My bottom of the range Nokia WP8 phone has better graphics playing Infinite Flight).
So if N3V stays where it is, they will lose customers over time - if they update to a completely new engine, they will lose the older fans and those who simply cannot afford to or don't want to upgrade their hardware.
Catch 22 I think. I enjoy Trainz, but at the moment, apart from keeping it current, it is gathering electronic dust.

Bob (CRO)

Aaaargh - they haven't fixed the time out when you write a post.....

 

[Pendolino]

Content Manager, correctly, reports single-color textures as errors. Nice, but is it so difficult to mark as faulty any content using dozens of textures? This should have much more impact than single-color textures, but no one seems to bother.

I recently received a call for help by a fellow Trainzer who has made a 2-square "layout" and asked me why he had single-digit FPS: I razed a couple of buildings (I won't make no names: they had 500,000+350,000 polys without LOD, 80+60 textures) and now everything goes as smooth as silk.

 

[rumour3]

Content Manager, correctly, reports single-color textures as errors. Nice, but is it so difficult to mark as faulty any content using dozens of textures? This should have much more impact than single-color textures, but no one seems to bother.

I recently received a call for help by a fellow Trainzer who has made a 2-square "layout" and asked me why he had single-digit FPS: I razed a couple of buildings (I won't make no names: they had 500,000+350,000 polys without LOD, 80+60 textures) and now everything goes as smooth as silk.

Good point- I've inadvertently downloaded a few of these horrors recently. For my own route I've tried to follow a simple rule of thumb that if the model doesn't appear absolutely instantly in the surveyor preview window I won't use it- any delay here is usually a sign that there is something about the asset that is likely to harm performance. It's surprising how many assets can be ruled out on this basis.

Finding a set of assets that look good and perform well and give the right feel for a prototype route is quite a challenge. I've got a long-term aspiration to make new versions of the most frequently used assets in my route, following similar geometry but with an appearance that's better suited to the location I'm modelling. This would allow grouping of assets into mesh libraries, sharing roof and wall textures and getting rid of (my pet hate) smoking chimneys etc.

I firmly believe that it's the content, rather than the game engine, that is responsible for most of the performance issues and poor visual quality that users experience.

R3

 

[johnwhelan]

I firmly believe that it's the content, rather than the game engine, that is responsible for most of the performance issues and poor visual quality that users experience.

R3

I would agree with you, perhaps some way for content creators to "hide" their earlier content on the DLS? I have content that was made for TRS2004 and the same wagon for a later version, the later version runs much better in TS2009 etc but it seems impossible to hide or delete the early stuff on the DLS.

Could we have some indicator of good content ie less than 500,000 polys and 43 texture files? The cut offs would need to be lower than this but either some sort of automated filter or community whatever in a similar way to the DLS repair?

I think getting rid of tatty content would extend the life a little longer.

Cheerio John

 

[AntonyVW]

Ive heard a lot of people use the excuse that many folk wont be able to run the game if the engine was updated. How about a proper pole to see where the average user's kit is? For me - I built my pc about 3 years ago. It was way above spec then and it is way above spec now. The game uses a lot of resources but not necessarily the right ones. For those of us who run 64bit pc's - and there are probably more than is been given for - cannot get the best out of our machines due to the inability to use all the memory etc. Most serious gamers I know have specs that make mine look like a dinosaur As for the lack of sales of pc's in the last year - this has been linked several time to windows 8 (though not exclusively), and peoples' not wanting to use that os. The game needs to advance and needs to improve. This can only be done if N3V are willing to make some drastic changes and yes that might mean upsetting the apple cart.

 

[Vern]

While N3V remain tied to the "old" engine, it's not just the graphics which will never move forward - it's all the other items which regularly come up too. I splashed out on quite a bit of stuff for Railworks in the last Steam sale and while indeed some of the older stuff might look dated, take a run on London to Faversham, Marias Pass or Munich to Augsburg and it looks many times better than what even TS12 has to offer. N3V have already lost a FCT renewal from me this year over the TS12 SP1 etc. debacle and while I'm not ruling out doing something in TS2009 at some stage, the chances diminish as the tech gets more and more ancient. They're certainly not going to sell me any more expensive DLC running on the current tech.

The Jet engine is old and tired (a bit like me) and either needs putting out to pasture or a complete rebirth.

 

[pware]

I worry that maybe N3V just don't have the money to start over when they can keep adding to the existing foundation of Trainz, ....

I seem to recall a similar discussion a few years back, possibly when TRS2004 was the newest kid on the block - but maybe it was earlier. Someone from Auran (as it was then called) pointed out that the original Jet engine was developed with a grant of (and I could be wrong here but I am sure I read this) $AU500,000 (about $US460,000) - in 2004 dollars. Now you could argue that software tools today (10 years later) are better, cheaper and easier to use so perhaps it would not cost quite as much now - but that is still a lot of capital that a small company like N3V would have to raise on a project where the banks would be very skeptical about getting their money + interest back.

 

[Barry]

Only as an outsider these days bit still interested in reading about Trainz although don't use it.
As I make basic routes in the Blender Game Engine of maritime intererest up to 12 miles I am interested in seeing different methods used in Trainz.
I do not understand how the Trainz game engine works and seems to be such a broad term of explanation.
Surely it has also a lot to do with texturing. Adding the grime to the actual image to take away the shiny looking effect is perhaps the first step. Also again perhaps it is not just to do with driving trains as there are so many different branches, and the scenery can be all important if you want realism. Perhaps Auran or 'whatever', should have divided Trainz into the 3 sections which was the original intention, one being general transport. Too many interests trying to be catered for with one game engine with people wanting all different things?.

Perhaps some people may like to create the visual effect with trains and everything else, all animated, and operating them as giant train set and following the progress of the changing scenery. That is how I used to make my routes in Trainz. Press one key and it all starts up if I remember correctly using the old trams in Liverpool city centre. I reckon at at least good 6 months needed to make a basic route (and some content) and much more for realism...an outsiders view of course. B

 

[Zeldaboy14]

TS2009 and later do struggle on older systems, especially those with integrated chipsets...

Shane

Like my Windows XP with the old Unichrome Pro driver's. As of such, Trainz 2009 or 2010, heck, even 2012 wouldn't even run! Though Trainz 2006 and the demo do just fine, because Trainz 2006 is unsupported.

 

[cascaderailroad]

Originally Posted by shaneturner12

TS2009 and later do struggle on older systems, especially those with integrated chipsets...
Shane

Like my Windows XP with the old Unichrome Pro driver's. As of such, Trainz 2009 or 2010, heck, even 2012 wouldn't even run! Though Trainz 2006 and the demo do just fine, because Trainz 2006 is unsupported.

Say again ... What ?

What does unsupport have to do with how well TRS2006 plays on integrated graphics PC's ?

You expected 09, 10, 12 to play on integrated graphics PC's ? I think not !

 

[boc61]

I seem to remember NOT upgrading to 2006 from 2004, because of all the complaints
about a "useless CMP" that didn't work & "we were better off with 'Tafwebs' program 'TrainzObjectz' running things".

Those were the days!

 

[boc61]

Download "World of Tanks (free to play) and run a couple of games and look at the scenery. This engine is way behind times.

Just don't go to the Forum. Nasty place.

 

[johnwhelan]

Like my Windows XP with the old Unichrome Pro driver's. As of such, Trainz 2009 or 2010, heck, even 2012 wouldn't even run! Though Trainz 2006 and the demo do just fine, because Trainz 2006 is unsupported.

Not quite TRS2006 basically does more on the CPU so the graphics card is irrelevant, TS2009 and later put more down to the GPU so you need a decent graphics card.

Cheerio John

 

[boc61]

My TRS2006, and it's CMP works absolutely flawlessly !

Sure it does, now. But how was it when it first came out? When it was announced that 2006 was going to have "CMP" it raised all sorts of Cain, if I remember correctly it didn't work that well initially. The 2004 vs 2006 Forum Wars were an epic period in Trainz History. Many lives were lost, towns and villages devastated to this day. It was frightening. It would make for one of the Garbage History shows that the History Channel seems to specialize in nowadays.

 

[Zeldaboy14]

Say again ... What ?

What does unsupport have to do with how well TRS2006 plays on integrated graphics PC's ?

You expected 09, 10, 12 to play on integrated graphics PC's ? I think not !

That's what i was trying to say, old driver's = Failure to play the game without the game even booting!

 

[boc61]

That's what i was trying to say, old driver's = Failure to play the game without the game even booting!

It's got nothing to do with drivers, it's the GPU's themselves. They don't have the processing power to run more advanced software. It's like putting a Ford Pinto engine into a Mustang.

 

[timberdv]

I would agree with you, perhaps some way for content creators to "hide" their earlier content on the DLS? I have content that was made for TRS2004 and the same wagon for a later version, the later version runs much better in TS2009 etc but it seems impossible to hide or delete the early stuff on the DLS.

Could we have some indicator of good content ie less than 500,000 polys and 43 texture files? The cut offs would need to be lower than this but either some sort of automated filter or community whatever in a similar way to the DLS repair?

I think getting rid of tatty content would extend the life a little longer.

Cheerio John

John:

If you make a new version the old one gets deleted. Fix it so it works in TS2012.

I am finding many of my items with uniform color are having problems if they are not fixed correctly.

I think in the future they will not probably work any more. Else why would it be a warning?

People working the older versions are going to have to be happy with the content they have.

They need to move up with the new technology. To each his own.

Dave