Do we need a new game engine?

[j_maybury]

To get back to the original question, Do we need a new game engine? After considering all the points raised, I would say yes, If Trainz is to move on we would need a new games engine.
Their is some merrit to cleaning up the poly counts, but that is at best a short term solution, but not one I would be willing to accsept.
The jet engine has in my opinion already out lived it's usefullness. As they say, you can't polish a turd.
For me jet is failing on so many levels, for once it would be nice to run the game without the graphics jumping in and out of shot or the train running past the point at which graphics can keep up and you find the train running in blue space.
Also be abble to create in survayor without it crashing every time it autosave at a crushal moment of the build.

 

[johnwhelan]

John:

If you make a new version the old one gets deleted. Fix it so it works in TS2012.

I am finding many of my items with uniform color are having problems if they are not fixed correctly.

I think in the future they will not probably work any more. Else why would it be a warning?

People working the older versions are going to have to be happy with the content they have.

They need to move up with the new technology. To each his own.

Dave

I did some ACS script upgrades with new kuids for TC3 and later but left the old ones running Blue star for TRS2004/6 users. Some older blue star ones have been error corrected to TS2009 but not by me, and really I'd prefer that TS2009 users and later just run the newer versions that have better lods and scripts etc but I can't get rid of the old ones. Actually that's not quite true is it. I could replace them with the new ones and have two identical assets on the DLS, now that's a thought for the day. You used to be able to use the obsolete table but N3V in their wisdom now prevent this to stop people removing content from the DLS after the latest clarification that anything on the DLS can be used as part of payware.

Cheerio John

 

[Vern]

In keeping this thread positive I think we should all acknowledge that Auran and subsequently N3V have done great things with a game design that was originally tasked to run a desktop model railway environment. That they have brought it to the level of TS12 is an achievement they should be proud of. However that still remains its Achilles Heel and I'm not just referring to the graphics but to the overall train driving experience. When Trainz was new we kind of forgave the fact you had to set the crudely drawn points as you drove the train, that there was no AI signaller for the player train, that it was virtually impossible to set up and have the game monitor progress against a timetable and that the physics - even in cab mode - could best be described as simplistic. However as the years moved on and other sims offered operational complexity and a better virtual environment, Trainz has singularly failed to do so. At heart, it's still the big model railway and that to me is the aspect indeed whole culture which needs to change most of all.

 

[TRam__]

Vern, you actually forgot about multiplayer experiance. Yes, TS12 has only game chat, and no voice transmission, but this is substituted with skype/raidcall/teamspeak. So if a groop of people organizes a prototype-like train traffic with preliminarily agreed timetable, there is no need to "game monitor progress against a timetable" - dispather player would point you out about delay. The same about signaler == dispather (but this require some more convenient control than junction switching for compicated stations).

What actually should to go with new version, not connected with the game engine:

1) giant snowflakes
2) default "click-click" (rail joint) and "tooboodoo" (junction) sounds (they are far away from prototype)
3) texture of sun and texture of stars

PS i also like to see "synchronization" of tracksounds (because the mixture of dozens of identical sounds with different phase shifting is awful) and wider opportunities for changing sound volume and pitch.

 

[ex-railwayman]

John:

If you make a new version the old one gets deleted. Fix it so it works in TS2012.

I am finding many of my items with uniform color are having problems if they are not fixed correctly.

I think in the future they will not probably work any more. Else why would it be a warning?

People working the older versions are going to have to be happy with the content they have.

They need to move up with the new technology. To each his own.

Dave

Ahhh, but, that is where one of the major problems is, folks won't be bullied into purchasing something new just because N3V are moving forward with the times, I laughed at John's comment that we should get rid of the tatty content on the DLS, what will the UTC and TRS2004 users have left to play with afterwards, very little I suspect......:hehe:
I know that this Jet engine question has been asked before, but, I guess the reason it hasn't been updated/changed is financial, I haven't got a clue how much it would cost, I guess about a million bucks, which is probably why Auran/N3V haven't done it, as they don't have the capital and it might incur veteran customers walking away if they can't keep playing with their preferred choice of Trainz version, especially, when N3V keep moving the goalposts, next year I believe (2014) TRS2009 will become unsupported, I stand corrected if that is not true, but, if that is the case I personally won't buy anything beyond that version anymore as nothing appeals to me personally, we aren't all Multiplayer fans and I won't buy what I won't use, period. It's up to the powers that be to decide how/if N3V will carry on, however, if customers are going to disappear if they can't play with the version of their choice, will it be financial suicide, or, will they hope that as one end-user leaves 2 more new players join the back of the queue, a juggling act to keep the Accountants happy, I don't envy the decision that N3V will have to make.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[AntonyVW]

Ahhh, but, that is where one of the major problems is, folks won't be bullied into purchasing something new just because N3V are moving forward with the times, I laughed at John's comment that we should get rid of the tatty content on the DLS, what will the UTC and TRS2004 users have left to play with afterwards, very little I suspect......:hehe:
I know that this Jet engine question has been asked before, but, I guess the reason it hasn't been updated/changed is financial, I haven't got a clue how much it would cost, I guess about a million bucks, which is probably why Auran/N3V haven't done it, as they don't have the capital and it might incur veteran customers walking away if they can't keep playing with their preferred choice of Trainz version, especially, when N3V keep moving the goalposts, next year I believe (2014) TRS2009 will become unsupported, I stand corrected if that is not true, but, if that is the case I personally won't buy anything beyond that version anymore as nothing appeals to me personally, we aren't all Multiplayer fans and I won't buy what I won't use, period. It's up to the powers that be to decide how/if N3V will carry on, however, if customers are going to disappear if they can't play with the version of their choice, will it be financial suicide, or, will they hope that as one end-user leaves 2 more new players join the back of the queue, a juggling act to keep the Accountants happy, I don't envy the decision that N3V will have to make.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

You can also look at this from the opposite point of view - that if they dont upgrade it then they wont get new customers because it looks out of date to begin with and that is as much financial suicide as the other way. Either way they are caught between a rock and a hard place. However I suspect there are more out there that would like to see the improvements. The other way of looking at things is that of the mods that folk create. The basics of creating the models would not change - ie it will still need blender or gmax or 3dmax to produce them. The change will come in how it is imported into the game and that is something that N3V would need to make sure is right first time around.

 

[Vern]

Vern, you actually forgot about multiplayer experience.

Not really, just not of any particular personal interest to me. For a train sim, sharing content with other users (routes, assets etc.) is the key interaction with other players, not some 13 year old anarchist trying to ram your train with his. One of the reasons I haven't really engaged with the Run 8 sim is that also relies on "multiplayer" to provide the despatcher element, if you run in single player mode there are no other moving trains and you have to set the route as you go - albeit you do get a neat CTC board to do this rather than clunky levers with green/red arrows and big padlocks over the junctions.

 

[BLACKWATCH]

if they dont upgrade it then they wont get new customers because it looks out of date to begin with

If people want a train sim that allows the control & functionality that N3v's 'Trainz' does, then they will buy 'Trainz', because there is no
alternative out there that gives you as much as 'Trainz' does.

 

[ex-railwayman]

You can also look at this from the opposite point of view - that if they dont upgrade it then they wont get new customers because it looks out of date to begin with and that is as much financial suicide as the other way. Either way they are caught between a rock and a hard place. However I suspect there are more out there that would like to see the improvements. The other way of looking at things is that of the mods that folk create. The basics of creating the models would not change - ie it will still need blender or gmax or 3dmax to produce them. The change will come in how it is imported into the game and that is something that N3V would need to make sure is right first time around.

I see where you're coming from young Sir, and don't get me wrong, I personally would also like to see the JET engine changed, however, N3V can only release the next Trainz version on the core software that they have already, unless, by keeping quiet their Management have something up there sleeve and we see something new next year perhaps, whatever, like all PC gaming developers, putting pretty pictures on the cover of their boxes and nice screenshots in their Marketing/Advertising won't allow the tatty content to be seen by prospective customers, only having bought it will folks see this afterwards, but, by then N3V have got your dosh and there's no refunds.......:hehe:

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[nicky9499]

If people want a train sim that allows the control & functionality that N3v's 'Trainz' does, then they will buy 'Trainz', because there is no
alternative out there that gives you as much as 'Trainz' does.

True, and perhaps why it's retaining as many users as it does. However it is for the same reason N3V seems to be taking its users for granted, slightly arrogant, even.

 

[AntonyVW]

I see where you're coming from young Sir, and don't get me wrong, I personally would also like to see the JET engine changed, however, N3V can only release the next Trainz version on the core software that they have already, unless, by keeping quiet their Management have something up there sleeve and we see something new next year perhaps, whatever, like all PC gaming developers, putting pretty pictures on the cover of their boxes and nice screenshots in their Marketing/Advertising won't allow the tatty content to be seen by prospective customers, only having bought it will folks see this afterwards, but, by then N3V have got your dosh and there's no refunds.......:hehe:

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

Lol - I havent been called young sir for a while, though granted I dont consider myself to be that old either. I do understand your point of view though. Ive been involved with computers since 1981/2 when I bought my first ZX81 so I have seen a few changes over the years. Up until the games consuls really took off it was always the games industry that drove the advancement in technology in the pc world. That seems to have slowed down somewhat and I begin to wonder if its because the game manufacturers have give up on the pc. After all the game engine for this game has not changed for many years and it is getting left behind.

 

[AntonyVW]

I see where you're coming from young Sir, and don't get me wrong, I personally would also like to see the JET engine changed, however, N3V can only release the next Trainz version on the core software that they have already, unless, by keeping quiet their Management have something up there sleeve and we see something new next year perhaps, whatever, like all PC gaming developers, putting pretty pictures on the cover of their boxes and nice screenshots in their Marketing/Advertising won't allow the tatty content to be seen by prospective customers, only having bought it will folks see this afterwards, but, by then N3V have got your dosh and there's no refunds.......:hehe:

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

As for your last point it also doesnt help prospective newcomers to decide if its what they want when there is no demo available to try out first.

 

[j_maybury]

As for your last point it also doesnt help prospective newcomers to decide if its what they want when there is no demo available to try out first.

You have a valid point there, as it was the first demo they did for trainz that got me hooked and tempted me away from MSTS, but how big would the demo need to be these days to do it justice. It would probably take half an hour to download and install and that's another problem with trainz, is the shear size of it all, how they cope with running the game on the jet engine is a minor miracle in it's self.
But like you say, there stuck in between a rock and a hard place, And I hate to think what the outcome will be. I fear that the price of a new games engine may be too much of a gamble in today's market, even Microsoft windows is looking unstable these days.

 

[AntonyVW]

I fear that the price of a new games engine may be too much of a gamble in today's market, even Microsoft windows is looking unstable these days.

Lol - that what you get for having to many irons in the fire. Microsoft should stick to making an OS that works rather than trying to use something designed for mobile apps and developing their own tablet etc. But I guess that is what happens when you try to combine everything into an all singing all dancing single machine which is supposed to be good for gamers and casual/home users and business users. I think they forgot that the needs of a business user are vastly different to a games user.
But back on topic - things need to progress - not because we demand them to but because the game has so much more potential than we have already seen so far. We only have to look at some of the suggestions being made for future versions of the game. Jet just wont do them justice.

 

[clam1952]

Lol - I havent been called young sir for a while, though granted I dont consider myself to be that old either. I do understand your point of view though. Ive been involved with computers since 1981/2 when I bought my first ZX81 so I have seen a few changes over the years. Up until the games consuls really took off it was always the games industry that drove the advancement in technology in the pc world. That seems to have slowed down somewhat and I begin to wonder if its because the game manufacturers have give up on the pc. After all the game engine for this game has not changed for many years and it is getting left behind.

Actually I was reading the other day the game development is actually in advance on the PC at present due to the Console makers not really making much progress with new technology, that may well soon change though when all the new generation console stuff appears.

I dispute that the Jet engine hasn't changed, may not be up to other engine standards however it bears very little resemblance to the pre Trainz demo version that I looked at many years ago, that included from what I remember some basic source code and a demo racing car game. May still be out there somewhere even.

I suspect most of the problem with modernisation of Jet is due to the requirement to support legacy items as well as new items, talking changes in Content Creation here, remove the need to support non stitched mesh splines pm meshes out of date scripts engine specs and old style configs and goodness knows what other old methods have to be worked round and that might enable N3V to add new features and fine tune the rest. You can't add new stuff if you have to add yet more work rounds to get the old stuff to continue working. Downside of that is you loose many old assets and probably users and thus customers.

Think I'm correct here but ignoring the obvious improvements people are clamouring for such as shadows, TS12 as it stands has far more actual game / Simulator features than any of the others, there's more to a game than just looking good. If you have less feature to start with then it is probably easier to make some of those aspects better than the opposition.

Also Started with a XZ81.......

 

[ex-railwayman]

As for your last point it also doesnt help prospective newcomers to decide if its what they want when there is no demo available to try out first.

Excellent point, however, I've always encouraged folks to go on YewToob and other video hosting sites to see the game being played for themselves, but, of course, it's played in so many different countries around the world these days, what would be practical for N3V to put on a demo tape, editing it to show off as many features as possible would be a nightmare I'd imagine, how long would you time it for, 10 minutes, or, half an hour, in which case peeps may get bored and switch off, and folks from America may not be interested in British/European content, and the Australians may not be interested in something else, and vice versa, so, I imagine a demo of the game might be a little impractical and as we already have various tutorial videos available for those who want to learn route building, and game editing, etc, N3V probably don't want to duplicate anything that a newcomer to the game can already watch.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[AntonyVW]

Actually I was reading the other day the game development is actually in advance on the PC at present due to the Console makers not really making much progress with new technology, that may well soon change though when all the new generation console stuff appears.


Also Started with a XZ81.......

That may be correct as neither the xbox360 or ps3 has improved for a while - but that will hopefully change when the new xbox one and ps4 come out. My point was though that the hardware is not developing as fast as it used to. Im not sure what the cpu chip is that is in the new consuls in comparison to the top end pc games machine but I would not be surprised if it is still below spec. But I do come back to the original question - do we need a new games engine? For me that would be a yes.

 

[Paulsw2]

For my own route I've tried to follow a simple rule of thumb that if the model doesn't appear absolutely instantly in the surveyor preview window I won't use it- any delay here is usually a sign that there is something about the asset that is likely to harm performance. It's surprising how many assets can be ruled out on this basis.

[...]

I firmly believe that it's the content, rather than the game engine, that is responsible for most of the performance issues and poor visual quality that users experience.

R3

Great tip! I still think it should be mandatory as part of the upload process for poly and texture overheads to be explicitly stated - as a tag in the config? - so that route builders can have more accessible information about assets. Could there be a way to access an asset's 'vital statistics' in Surveyor?

Paul

 

[obirek]

I still have Zork games that I refuse to throw out. :hehe: Zork games, and especially the non graphical versions, required imagination to play.

A very fine point indeed!

The picture is two-dimensional and without our imagination we would see a chaotic mosaic of pixels. What powers this simulator is imagination. Computer graphics is merely stimulation for our brain.

For this reason I am not too eager to have a new engine able to reproduce million of 4 M frames per second. I would rather have the present technology working as expected. At the moment this simulator is infested with numerous bugs. Most of them are well documented in this and other forums, but nothing is being done to get rid of them.

Fix the existing engine, before building a new one, or we will have the same problem, only for much larger scale.

 

[Jaxster]

Hi everybody.
With the sales of PCs down by over a third in the last year or so, you have to wonder whether the development of a new game engine would be worthwhile or profitable for N3V. Outside of tablets the development in the computer market is most definitely around smart TVs. We have just bought one which has full Internet access meaning I can even Google the Trainz forum and read the postings from the comfort of my front room sofa. The salesperson who demonstrated the television to us talked of it being Quad core with God knows how many pixels to the screen. All the technical information completely baffled me and the wife but on getting it home and setting it up I have to say it really is amazing for not just being a television but an all-round entertainment system pulling films and videos seamlessly from YouTube and other video sites when requested by just talking instructions to it.

for my money I would develop a version of trainz for smart televisions as these are the PCs of the future. Think of it, sat driving your favourite consists or developing your route from the comfort of your armchair in front of your huge crystal clear smart television screen.

It has to be the future
Bill

Care to share what TV you ended up with Bill? Thanks