Disappointed....

[mogeley]

I've been playing the Trainz series since the original. Over the last 8-10 years not much has changed other than graphics and speed tree (still graphics).

If your like me you play Trainz because you like trains. Sure better graphics are nice and in many games expected... But do these improvement help me make better layouts?

Here's a few things that I am sorely disappointed about and would like to see changed an improved!

Surveyor - terrain editor

Actually upgrade it!!! Please! Re-skinning is not an upgrade!

This terrain creation tool is very difficult to work with. Even when I have all my GIS data for terrain I want to re-create. Have any of you ever played Sim City 4? This game came out near 2000 and has one of the best terrain creation tools I have ever seen. So much so that it's a blast just to create different terrain, and it's very easy! Take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl5CuY-nJgk


In case you've never played the game. They moved way beyond letting you move the ground up and down. The terrain is actually modified using fractals, and many different types of tools. If you want to make a mountain there a tool for it. If you want to make a ridge there's a tool for it. If you want to smooth the terrain there's a tool for it. This goes on and on to include:

• Volcanos
• Craters
• Plateaus
• Weathering terrain
• Adding rivers and waterfalls
• Terrain textures are automatically chosen based on type of terrain
• Tress can be "painted" on or placed individually

My point in all this is that it's a pain to create any sort of realistic terrain in Trainz even with using GIS data -> bitmap -> asset -> heightmap (this process itself is a pain) Over the years I'd expect this to be upgraded and be easier to use.

BTW - SimCity 4 originally had access to the national GIS data and would import the height map for the selected area in only a few clicks.

Surveyor - Asset Selection

Trying to find assets to display on the map is almost impossible. Unless I know the name. The asset management tool has tons of meta data in the database. Why can't this be used in Surveyor? Also why a list only to show assets? Can we be shown a full screen grid of thumbnails to select assets?

Having track in one tab and objects in another tab makes sense. But having track items in the objects tab makes no sense... It's been this way from the beginning. And this design is very frustrating. It'd be easier to add stations and crossings as trackside objects.

Surveyor - laying track

People have resolved to homemade tools for creating smooth turns while the spline model works. It is very time consuming. It would be nice if there were some additional tools to help with:
creating smooth curves (with and without proper transitions),
setting minimum radius,
etc...


Content

Most of the content is player made I don't know of any gaming company that would get away with that other than this one. The core content for the game is highly unreliable even after 8 years of collecting player work and selling it as their own. Try to make an old west themed railroad even now it's almost impossible. And now they are trying to sell add on's when many parts of their current game does not properly work???

Auran has really dropped the ball with Trainz 2010. What bothers me most about it is the tools that have not been updated in almost 10 years, Trainz 2006 has more layouts (routes) than Trainz 2010...

With no updates being made to the core program itself other than graphics. I will have a hard time ever upgrading again...

 

[Euphod]

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but the last part of Trainz I would expect anyone to criticize is Surveyor! Each of the functions you list as absent in Surveyor are present, if the user knows how to manipulate the program. Frankly I'm surprised you don't agree, with all the experience with the program you've had.

Sim city does not offer the ability to make an infinite number of baseboards as I recall.

 

[pware]

I've been playing the Trainz series since the original. Over the last 8-10 years not much has changed other than graphics and speed tree (still graphics).

Active industries and stations were introduced in Trainz 2004 (less than 8 years ago) - I would hardly call that "nothing much"

Most of the content is player made I don't know of any gaming company that would get away with that other than this one.

How much do you want to pay for your content? If gaming companies made the content on the DLS (or other sources) then each item would cost far more than an annual FCT.

Auran has really dropped the ball with Trainz 2010. ... Trainz 2006 has more layouts (routes) than Trainz 2010...

Duhhh - how long has Trainz 2006 been around?? Far longer than Trainz 2010.

While I agree that some aspects of the game are "dated" but comparing Auran with the company behind SimCity (and other creations) is a bit rich - how many programmers and $$$$ do they each have to throw at a project??

My opinion
Peter Ware

 

[Mike10]

How much do you want to pay for your content? If gaming companies made the content on the DLS (or other sources) then each item would cost far more than an annual FCT.

As an example;

http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_4_4__12&term=railworks

Mike.

 

[davesnow]

I think the current Surveyor in TS2010 is WAY WAY easier to use than TRS2006! Ha! The search function(s) are way better so it's a lot easier to find stuff. Instant copy/paste/ delete is a BIG boon. Replace Assets tool is wonderful. I don't have any trouble creating terrain. I mainly use Photoshop to create my terrain and I find that easy (for me.)

I think TS2010 is the best version yet. I love the cool appearance of the Speedtreez. My frame rates are much better in 2010.

I just can't say enough good things about 2010. It's the best version yet.

Dave

`

 

[Elwenil]

As a new Trainz user and a user of many different map and "world builder" applications for other games I have to agree that the terrain tools are way behind the times. While the ability to add unlimited grid squares is unusual for most games I have dealt with, the way the terrain is bent and buckled and terrain textures are blended on defined lines is a bit outdated. Most map building tools have progressed to much smoother appearing terrain deformations. As far as the track laying, the only complaint I have there is the way that dual track refuses to straighten out once a turn has been made and while it looks reasonably straight in Surveyor mode, trains writhe like a snake while negotiating these areas. Overall the Surveyor mode seems to be much better than the alternatives for train sims just for the sheer variety of stuff you can do, but I don't believe that all this should come at the cost of such ugly looking terrain deformations and texture blending when other modern games such as Sims 3 have raised the bar much, much higher.

 

[tomurban]

Apparently the OP never tried to edit or create a route with MSTS.

tomurban

 

[mogeley]

Apparently the OP never tried to edit or create a route with MSTS.

tomurban

I'm building one right now. This is where I'm finding the same difficulties that I've always run into...

• Making any sort of realistic terrain is very difficult and time consuming. For large terrain features the tools are simply too small. If I want anything more than small mounds, I have to really play with the terrain to get it just right. Even with the advanced terrain tools it's difficult to create a sloping terrain. The best tool I've found for grading terrain is laying rows of track at a certain slope and smoothing splines (brings the ground level up to the track level). This is in the track editor not the terrain editor tab as well...
• Finding objects is horrendous... Search is by name only, the new filter is a great improvement but many times you need to browse visually. This visual browser is what's missing. The names of objects, track, track side objects have meaning to someone, but I rarely find the names adequate or even wrong compared to the object presented. The easiest way to create a new route is to first set aside a few tiles and start adding all different types of objects and tracks. The UI has no way to browse for objects visually and universally like this. Since many good objects are in foreign languages this is the only way to reliably find them. The copy / Paste has always been there even in 2006...
• The quality of objects are inconsistent. While this is expected with player made content. This major release is a graphics update. Only a couple dozen objects have been brought up to par with the graphics engine.
• The tools that people have created to help with curves are nice (if I can download them). But why can't the game offer multiple ways to lay track?
• Bridges are always weird, they are either track objects, track side objects, or an independent spline object. Because they are in multiple tabs I find it hard to find what I'm looking for.
• Terrain is a solid grid, the points in the grid can only be moved up and down and not side to side. Many times the track must be moved to keep the track from overhanging off the edge of a height change in the terrain. If the terrain could be pulled a little in different directions this would allow the terrain and the track to look more natural.

Some simple tools could really improve Surveyor considerably while leaving the current functionality intact. I get frustrated with surveyor because whenever I come back to it there are the same roadblocks that slow down layout creation. These could be easily improved with updating the UI, search functionality (how search results are listed), and adding better tools for manipulating terrain.

I didn't mean for my post to sound so whiney but meant it to be constructive criticism for Auran for the future. However, I'm currently sick and that is how it came out.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but the last part of Trainz I would expect anyone to criticize is Surveyor! Each of the functions you list as absent in Surveyor are present, if the user knows how to manipulate the program. Frankly I'm surprised you don't agree, with all the experience with the program you've had.

Sim city does not offer the ability to make an infinite number of baseboards as I recall.

SimCity 4 does offer unlimited base boards. There is a tutorial online for making custom regions. I ran across it while looking for the other video.

In Driver most of the scenarios and some routes simply do not work. It makes me wonder why they included it if it does not work properly? Or if it was properly tested. A Steam tutorial would be nice too...

This goes back to proper content. If Auran had made a massive set of content for their users to use for each release (like almost all games do) then the content not working should not be there...

Trainz is a great program and it was state of the art at it's first release. It just feels really neglected to me and they could do so much more with it and bring it back up to state of the art.

 

[clam1952]

This goes back to proper content. If Auran had made a massive set of content for their users to use for each release (like almost all games do) then the content not working should not be there...

Trainz is a great program and it was state of the art at it's first release. It just feels really neglected to me and they could do so much more with it and bring it back up to state of the art.

Need to read the forum, currently all the faulty stuff is being fixed.

Most games do not make thousands of assets by the way, you get a limited amount. If Auran had made all the available content they would still be making it and there wouldn't be any 2009 or 2010, compared to the likes of Electronic Arts, N3V a very tiny company with a small number of programmers, about 3 or 4 I believe?

Terrain is easy if you use Transdem or Microdem + Hog. Doing it by hand you need to have reasonable artistic ability as you do with any graphics application.

Surveyor is by far the best multipurpose tool I have ever come across in many years of making stuff for games. I worked out how to use it in a couple of days as opposed to the weeks it took to learn some game editors.

 

[mogeley]

I think the current Surveyor in TS2010 is WAY WAY easier to use than TRS2006! Ha! The search function(s) are way better so it's a lot easier to find stuff. Instant copy/paste/ delete is a BIG boon. Replace Assets tool is wonderful. I don't have any trouble creating terrain. I mainly use Photoshop to create my terrain and I find that easy (for me.)

I think TS2010 is the best version yet. I love the cool appearance of the Speedtreez. My frame rates are much better in 2010.

I just can't say enough good things about 2010. It's the best version yet.

Dave

`

The problem I have with the way height maps are implemented is:

• You need to create an asset for a single use height map.
• The raw GIS data in 10m (1/3 arc second resolution) for the entire US is under one megabyte. The current height map implementation in Trainz applies a height difference than allowing you to apply the actual heights. This makes a huge difference when doing a mountain route like from Sacramento to Reno. One needs 10,000 feet in altitude change. Expanding the GIS data to an image does not give this kind of resolution of height. The Integer representing the height in the image has too few "steps" real numbers are needed for accurate height mapping. Allowing the game process 3D GIS data would be a major improvement.

 

[zatovisualworks]

If Auran had made all the available content they would still be making it

Hi dear guys.

Historically Trainz has been a frame for third party contents. The Brisbane team has been doing very few contents for years (ten right now) except for the first versions up to T4.

The company has been supported and relying on the third part party contents (via DLS or third party sites and creators - a few of them finally ended up at Brisbane HQ -) for such a long time that a turning point is difficult for them now, very difficult, almost impossible, since Trainz without third parties is unthinkable and very close to a frame software without contents, very close to a closed uncustomizable shooter game... except for Surveyor which excels any other you could think of, i. e. -RailWorks route builder is some kind of joke-.

Most of the high quality contents has been coming from third parties, most of them for free. Let's think about this unquestionable fact.

Take care, you all.

The third-party-powering side of Alberte :wave: (A turning point)

 

[mogeley]

Terrain is easy if you use Transdem or Microdem + Hog. Doing it by hand you need to have reasonable artistic ability as you do with any graphics application.

I've used these and the terrain always comes out steps. The heights are not smooth.

This is why I was bringing up SimCity 4 they had created many tools that modified the terrain height over time. These tools are not hard to make and they build terrain to look somewhat real. The weathering effects add a lot to the terrain. My point is that adding to the terrain creation tool set would help those of use that don't feel creatinv at the moment but still want a mountain here, a hill there, and a canyon over there that looks somewhat real.

On Content...

Third party content is awesome! Some of the best content is third party. But if the numbers are true and Trainz 2010 sold more than 1 million copies then they can afford some content people to include with the game.

 

[mrscsi]

As I approach the half-century mark I am continually struck by the lengths people will go to pick gnat crap out of pepper. Is this game SimCity? No it's not. So comparing it to SimCity is a rather wasted enterprise. So just what exactly is trainz? This is where it's different things to different people.

I look at trainz as the model railroad set I always wanted as a kid but couldn't afford and always wanted as an adult but didn't have the room for.

I don't look at it strictly as a game, so when it comes to content, like with real three-dimensional model railroading you're going to get what you pay for. I find the locomotives from JointedRail to be some of the best available and they are actually very reasonably priced considering the amount of hours that went into the development and the amount of enjoyment I receive while using them.

CloakedGhost is another content provider that has a wonderful set of TTX well cars and containers that I consider the best $20 I've ever spent. For the routes that I create are what I see out here where I live and I can replicate what I see without an issue with that content.

People make big assumptions about surveyor. I too have been using trainz since 2004 and will tell anyone that 2010's surveyor is the best yet. The original poster talked about it being time consuming, try putting together and detailing an actual scale three-dimensional model railroad layout and then come back to me and talk to me about how surveyor is time-consuming.

Most people look at the built in routes and think that they can do that just by wiggling the mouse and pressing a few keys. That's not the case, those routes took months if not years in some cases and groups of people working on them. I've found over the years that if you want to build accurate prototypical layouts TrainzDEM is really the only way to go.

I noticed the original poster complained about making rolling hills etc., well TrainzDEM will take a digital elevation model of an actual area and put that out and replicate it perfectly in trainz. Now TrainzDEM isn't perfect, it's just as perfect as the digital elevation model you're using. Now of course TrainzDEM requires an additional investment of about $30 but again I'll say as someone who looks at trainz not as a game but more of a hobby it was a great investment.

Now if one decided to start H-O scale model trains as a hobby for example and just bought a standard layout/set up and never spent another dime, they get tired of it pretty quick. It would lose its appeal probably in a matter of hours. And that's always been my appreciation for trainz is that it is a virtually unlimited model train set with possibilities so endless that it never gets boring.

Now just where can you spend $50 and get that kind of enjoyment out of anything today? The answer is you can't.

But whining and complaining will not make the program any more enjoyable, if you want a game go play SimCity or better yet railworks, but if you want to enjoy good hobby which is more akin to model railroading trainz is your best bet, just don't expect it to be everything you're looking for right out-of-the-box. You only get out of it what you put into it...

 

[clam1952]

I've used these and the terrain always comes out steps. The heights are not smooth.

This is why I was bringing up SimCity 4 they had created many tools that modified the terrain height over time. These tools are not hard to make and they build terrain to look somewhat real. The weathering effects add a lot to the terrain. My point is that adding to the terrain creation tool set would help those of use that don't feel creatinv at the moment but still want a mountain here, a hill there, and a canyon over there that looks somewhat real.

On Content...

Third party content is awesome! Some of the best content is third party. But if the numbers are true and Trainz 2010 sold more than 1 million copies then they can afford some content people to include with the game.

I think you will find that actually means 1 million copies of all versions of Trainz since it was first released. I'm sure either Zec or Chris said that. It's a typical sales marketing ploy. Not telling the exact truth and not exactly a lie.

Regarding the steps using Dems? well I'm using a DEM created from Microdem and Hog for a Narrow Gauge route in North Wales, that's Mountains and there were no steps in it whatsoever, think you need a better source of data?

 

[mrscsi]

I've used these and the terrain always comes out steps. The heights are not smooth.

Now I know you're fibbing a little bit. TrainzDEM uses highly accurate digital elevation models to create accurate terrain. For example I built a route of Yuma and Castle Dome was right where it was supposed to be and it looked like it was supposed to. Here's a screenshot of the Phoenix route I'm working on that shows Camelback and they're right where they're supposed to be and no they're not stepped and they are very smooth...

 

[clam1952]

I've used these and the terrain always comes out steps. The heights are not smooth.

This is why I was bringing up SimCity 4 they had created many tools that modified the terrain height over time. These tools are not hard to make and they build terrain to look somewhat real. The weathering effects add a lot to the terrain. My point is that adding to the terrain creation tool set would help those of use that don't feel creatinv at the moment but still want a mountain here, a hill there, and a canyon over there that looks somewhat real.

On Content...

Third party content is awesome! Some of the best content is third party. But if the numbers are true and Trainz 2010 sold more than 1 million copies then they can afford some content people to include with the game.

I think you will find that actually means 1 million copies of all versions of Trainz since it was first released. I'm sure either Zec or Chris said that. It's a typical sales marketing ploy. Not telling the exact truth and not exactly a lie.

Regarding the steps using Dems? well I'm using a DEM created from Microdem and Hog for a Narrow Gauge route in North Wales, that's Mountains and there were no steps in it whatsoever, think you need a better source of data?

 

[mogeley]

But whining and complaining will not make the program any more enjoyable, if you want a game go play SimCity or better yet railworks, but if you want to enjoy good hobby which is more akin to model railroading trainz is your best bet, just don't expect it to be everything you're looking for right out-of-the-box. You only get out of it what you put into it...

Never suggesting any improvements means things never get improved as well.

What I am talking about are things that would take only a couple weeks to work up a working proof of concept. And a few months to highly polish.

Besides, I'm not talking about improving the a specific piece of content but improving the tools used everyone can use to create better layouts faster and more easily.

If everyone likes the way it is now so much then don't ask for better tools. However, is it too much for me to expect a product to improve over the years more than an added filter? What's the problem with wanting something I really liked in another piece of software to be in this one?

 

[mogeley]

I think you will find that actually means 1 million copies of all versions of Trainz since it was first released. I'm sure either Zec or Chris said that. It's a typical sales marketing ploy. Not telling the exact truth and not exactly a lie.

Regarding the steps using Dems? well I'm using a DEM created from Microdem and Hog for a Narrow Gauge route in North Wales, that's Mountains and there were no steps in it whatsoever, think you need a better source of data?

Does North Wales have height differences of 10,000 feet? I'd like to do a route from Sacramento over Donner Pass. I've found that the maximum height difference in a single height map is only around 1,000ft vertical. There are some sections along the route that have a 3,000ft or more height difference.

 

[Napalm]

What I am talking about are things that would take only a couple weeks to work up a working proof of concept. And a few months to highly polish.

So you are know a master programmer who knows how the Trainz program code works?

To do something you are suggesting would take a lot longer than a couple of weeks to "work up".

I am also going to join the others by saying don't try to put Trainz in the same development boat as 'The Sims' and 'Sim City'. They are produced by huge games companies who have the budget and the staffing levels to do what they have done.

 

[clam1952]

What's the problem with wanting something I really liked in another piece of software to be in this one?

Nothing at all, if it's doable, that's why there is the Suggestion Boxcar part of the forum.