Content outside DLS: a royal pain in the ...

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I thought that's what beta testers were for?

Cheerio John

Not in my opinion I would expect a beta tester to firstly enjoy the layout, be on the lookout for things I had missed in the route, particularly those that cause operating problems or that are wrong because of my limited knowledge not for things that I could have easily checked myself
Regards, Bob V

 

[johnwhelan]

Not in my opinion I would expect a beta tester to firstly enjoy the layout, be on the lookout for things I had missed in the route, particularly those that cause operating problems or that are wrong because of my limited knowledge not for things that I could have easily checked myself
Regards, Bob V

Being realistic the best ones have a different outlook, they will tear the route apart looking for potential problems. They tend to be people who look for minimum negatives rather than positives only when they have scanned for problems will they start to look for enjoyment. Big routes though take a lot of testing and I agree the better the creators testing and looking for problems before hand the easier it is for beta testers.

In my experience what seems to happen is the beta testers note any dependencies that are not on the DLS or their machines, these are often replaced with items on the DLS. Also where a layout is developed from an existing layout there seems to be fewer problems. Which reminds me are we going to see a broad gauge version of Turks Castle released in the near future? That would be interesting plus most of the undocumented system features should be worked out apart from the mini skirts on the possengers that is.

Cheerio John

 

[Boobless_ed]

I've been around these forums a long time. From years of beautiful time wasting, I have learned to rarely check these sorts of threads.

Why? Everyone is very happy indeed to complain and share their personal thoughts about how they are affected by the problem raised, but a solution is never raised.
Someone (like I am about to do) might offer a possible idea for a solution, though before any small ideas can be expanded upon, the flaws are rapidly spread before anyone pays attention.
This is fair enough, and it will always happen with a group of (thankfully) very different people.

Moving back to the topic though, this is an issue that has been raised more than most, and although I mentioned that I rarely check these threads, this is a problem that frustrates me no end.

Why? Because none of us are going to bloody well agree on anything!

This is not an Auran issue. They've done their part with the download station. So we need to agree on the start of a solution.

No-one is going to hand out a solution straight away, and whatever positive ideas will start with flaws. But we've got to build on them, and shoot them down only if we've replaced them with something better.

The Download Station is a good concept, and in my opinion, it uses perfectly fine methods. The real problem is when - fairly enough, for whatever reasons - the creator does not upload here.



I will propose what I hope is not ignored or shot down for the sake of more complaining.
"What? They did that to you? Well, guess what they did to me!"
I am offering what is (I am sure) a flawed idea, and it is certainly an obvious one with little real thought yet, but perhaps we can either think around that or think of a better idea entirely.

I would propose a user based (though moderated) database system with a simple program or such that can be used to search through it. Both 3rd party content creators and users could list Kuids, and include a link to the site where they can be found.

It is still not perfect, however at least people will know where to find assets, and if people want users to go to their site directly for the kuids, they will.

It does not solve the problem of websites dying, but at least people would then know where the kuids came from, and could ask other users for them.

Perhaps a function of the program (Java? or PHP? Programing isn't my field, but maybe someone else could add something about a simple database sharing program) could be to connect to the site, start downloading a few KBs of the file and cancel, then being able to flag the file as confirmed to be existing...

That's what I'm offering, it's not much, but perhaps we can build on it.

COMPLAINING ABOUT A PROBLEM MANY TIMES OVER WILL NOT MAKE A SOLUTION APPEAR. I AM ASKING US TO TALK ABOUT A SOLUTION TO WHAT WE HAVE ALREADY ITERATED MANY, MANY TIMES.

 

[johnwhelan]

I've been around these forums a long time. From years of beautiful time wasting, I have learned to rarely check these sorts of threads.

Why? Everyone is very happy indeed to complain and share their personal thoughts about how they are affected by the problem raised, but a solution is never raised.
Someone (like I am about to do) might offer a possible idea for a solution, though before any small ideas can be expanded upon, the flaws are rapidly spread before anyone pays attention.
This is fair enough, and it will always happen with a group of (thankfully) very different people.

Moving back to the topic though, this is an issue that has been raised more than most, and although I mentioned that I rarely check these threads, this is a problem that frustrates me no end.

Why? Because none of us are going to bloody well agree on anything!

This is not an Auran issue. They've done their part with the download station. So we need to agree on the start of a solution.

No-one is going to hand out a solution straight away, and whatever positive ideas will start with flaws. But we've got to build on them, and shoot them down only if we've replaced them with something better.

The Download Station is a good concept, and in my opinion, it uses perfectly fine methods. The real problem is when - fairly enough, for whatever reasons - the creator does not upload here.



I will propose what I hope is not ignored or shot down for the sake of more complaining.
"What? They did that to you? Well, guess what they did to me!"
I am offering what is (I am sure) a flawed idea, and it is certainly an obvious one with little real thought yet, but perhaps we can either think around that or think of a better idea entirely.

I would propose a user based (though moderated) database system with a simple program or such that can be used to search through it. Both 3rd party content creators and users could list Kuids, and include a link to the site where they can be found.

It is still not perfect, however at least people will know where to find assets, and if people want users to go to their site directly for the kuids, they will.

It does not solve the problem of websites dying, but at least people would then know where the kuids came from, and could ask other users for them.

Perhaps a function of the program (Java? or PHP? Programing isn't my field, but maybe someone else could add something about a simple database sharing program) could be to connect to the site, start downloading a few KBs of the file and cancel, then being able to flag the file as confirmed to be existing...

That's what I'm offering, it's not much, but perhaps we can build on it.

COMPLAINING ABOUT A PROBLEM MANY TIMES OVER WILL NOT MAKE A SOLUTION APPEAR. I AM ASKING US TO TALK ABOUT A SOLUTION TO WHAT WE HAVE ALREADY ITERATED MANY, MANY TIMES.

Sounds very sensible, so sensible in fact it exists.

TARL at www.trainzhaven.com.

Cheerio John

 

[Boobless_ed]

Heh, okay, what's the point of this thread then?

Well, this site is brilliant. In future, I will copy that last post of mine, change the content a bit and hope that a solution hasn't sneakily occurred

 

[SuperFudd]

All of this hub bub is why, from the very begining, I decided to use on my layouts, only stuff that is standard with the current version of Trainz. Nothing from the DLS or anywhere else.
I had learned this from my experience creating maps for Build engine games such as Duke Nukem 3D.

 

[mononlaf]

John's post about 'a number of issues' of a couple days ago makes some very good points.

In my opinion, the great thing about Trainz is its openness. A lot of very talented people have contributed much valuable time to create the content that we seem to take for granted -- and seem to expect to be handed to us on a platter.

For the most part, it IS handed to us on a platter. A silver platter. I think it is amazing that the DLS works as well as it does with its army of contributors. 80,000 pieces of content? Each of which has had a quality check? Wow!

I think it amazing that generous individuals maintain sites that directly provide us with their content free of charge or at nominal cost. I would not try to tell any of them how to handle their creations, and I certainly am in no position to criticize anybody that for whatever reason drops their site. Our use of their content is strictly at our own discretion and risk -- and there is some very good stuff out there.

Glitches? Disappointments? Well, that's life. I think Auran has done and is doing an excellent job in supporting Trainz's openness and surely thank all those 3rd party contributors who have provided so many of us with good trainzing.

Dick

 

[johnwhelan]

Heh, okay, what's the point of this thread then?

Well, this site is brilliant. In future, I will copy that last post of mine, change the content a bit and hope that a solution hasn't sneakily occurred

Perhaps the point is there is a lot of information buried in the Forums, a fair bit has made it's way into the new user thread in TRS2004 but unfortunately there are a lot of users both new and old who are not aware of the answers or who are not prepared to go digging. Probably what Trainz needs is a magazine or a regular feature in one of the online Train magazines that has a series of articles in a readily digestable form to filter the information available.

Cheerio John

 

[zatovisualworks]

A well-balanced opinion, Dick.

 

[Boobless_ed]

John, you're certainly correct. Although I did know about that site, I never used it. Why? Trainz asset repair library.... Well, I don't use 06, and the name of it strikes me as... I thought it was for fixing assets that no longer worked in 06!

But when I did get there and actually searched, I must have been laughing for a whole minute after my spirited, soapbox reply to this topic!

A decent online magazine is hard work, but we do have a large enough community for that to not be a problem. But if it were done, it definitely needs to be available HERE, and not some buried site!

 

[ianwoodmore]

Perhaps we could propose a merger and bring the TARL to Auran. In the meantime, some help with creators advisng where they are keeping their assets would be helpful.

 

[ad602000]

to end this argument, I dont recall it ever being stipulated that content creators HAD to put all their freeware content on the DLS. I will put content where I wish and most times that is on the DLS. On occasions when I place it elsewhere it is because it is relevant to the theme of the content. However, it remains my right to do so.

It's a bit ironic that the statement "all freeware content must be on the DLS" comes from someone who resides in the land of the "free", or is there a different meaning when someone else freedom presents an "inconvenience" to others?

 

[leeferr]

I'm not sure that's going to end the argument..and I don't really think it's an argument. We're FREELY discussing the subject.

 

[Gandalf0444]

So you are now attacking the U.S.? And saying we are all like that?And that we expect everything to be free?

 

[dnutter]

I"M NOT ACCPET! @#%%#$%!!!!!!!!!

to end this argument, I dont recall it ever being stipulated that content creators HAD to put all their freeware content on the DLS. I will put content where I wish and most times that is on the DLS. On occasions when I place it elsewhere it is because it is relevant to the theme of the content. However, it remains my right to do so.

It's a bit ironic that the statement "all freeware content must be on the DLS" comes from someone who resides in the land of the "free", or is there a different meaning when someone else freedom presents an "inconvenience" to others?

Hey, you don't have no respect on American, HUH! That no excuse! But why you was talk first open "insult" to American why? Do you have hope want see make american piss off or agure or something!??? So I not accpet that no excuse with you! HUH! HUHUH! So might you not should't talk with american ANYMORE! You are LOSER @%$%^&!:n: LOSER! DAMN &^! So seee american peoples make get bad mood because OF YOU!

 

[Boobless_ed]

This thread has turned into a sitcom. An American one, at that! (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist)

Should we try and get back on topic?

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

I hope this thread doesn't turn abusive.

For my contribution, I'd like to say I'm highly sympathetic with the views expressed in the opening note. 3rd party sites certainly have a right to exist, but if they do not also put their stuff on the DLS, then it causes all sorts of unnecessary grief for the end-users, as already explained.

In addition I find many 3rd-party sites - even some of the famous big ones - are badly organized, hard to search for specific kuids and sometimes slow to load due to big image files, long html pages and loads of waffle text. It would be too provocative to name names though.

An exception and a good model would be TafWeb's site - why? because all his download links are collected in simple tables along with brief descriptions and thumbnails. You know what you're getting and can find it at a glance. And most importantly, he makes sure all the same kuids are available on the DLS (demolishing any of these dubious, self-serving arguments about "losing control" of creations).

The only good case I've heard for hosting an item solely on an outside website is for layouts that are bigger than the DLS limit of 20 megabytes. In this case, there is no possibility of causing other layouts to have missing assets and the end-user is able to get the whole map (including sessions if appropriate) as originally designed and without having to merge separate parts.

I would also make an exception for locos and rolling stock from 3rd-party sites, because these items, strictly speaking, should not be part of a layout. I know some people have taken to including these as dependencies of layouts but that's a rather thoughtless mistake in my view. Still, the layout itself does not suffer if these missing "assets" are deleted. Better though, if everything is available on the DLS.

Annoying "cool" smiley

- D

 

[Forest_Runner]

Going to external Sites to download FREE content........

......just in case anyone missed that FREE CONTENT!!


There's an old daying about looking a gift horse in the mouth you know. Tsk tsk....

 

[narrowgauge]

Calm down, everybody.

I think it is time to reconsider the situation.

1: Auran has made no attempt to ensure that ALL content goes on the DLS. It seems therefore that they are happy as things are

2: Where content is hosted is the decision of the creator based on his personal requirements. He does not have to justify his decision.

3: If non-DLS content appears on a route then that is the decision of the route creator. Whether or not he makes a readme list is up to him.

4: If content is missing from a route and the downloader does not want to look for it or decides to delete the route, that is his or her decision.

5: If a downloader is sucessful in finding the content then it seems fair to ask that he lists on the Forum the sites where he was successful.

The operative word is Free. Free decisions relating to free content in what we believe to be a free society.

I believe that is all that needs to be said.

Cheers

Narrowgauge

 

[Alan_Yeomans]

This thread is gettimg messy and has been closed.

I was going to post with my thoughts, but the issue has been raised a 1,000 times before and will come up again.

See you all in the next discussion on the topic.

More solutions. Less problems.