completely confused but now I want to go for it

[Hunter58]

I little background. I started out lang time ago with UTC and TRS2004 then TRS2006, 2010, 2012, TANE, 2019 and now 2022 (plus). So you could say I have been always loyal to Auran. But after some trail and error I mostly gave up because of strange behaviour. Trains running backwards, driver commands doing things I did not understand and weird signalling issues.
I ended up buying EEP (a German Sim). EEP has a steep learning curve, is mostly German oriented and focuses on the German speaking community. Most, if not all layouts are East or West German based and most of all there is no AI. You have to program everything yourself usnig contact, triggers and markers. Even their signals are dumb. OK a train will stop on a red signal but that is all. You uses control circuits or LUA to control your layout. EEP is very nice once you get the hang of it but I like Trainz better.

Oeps that is maybe a lot of background. I'm just a rambling 63 year old, sorry about that

Anyway here I am back on trainz and happy using the DLS and the content manager. Building is not really an issue but as it comes to signalling and session creation I get lost. I thought I had it figured out using just one type of signal and only put those on one side of a junction and never ever on a single track but that seemed to be a bit too simple, a tried interlocking towers and search the doc's, the forums and YT but a lot information is long gone. Sites are down, users gone. What is left are experienced people and long time users.
I need the basics for signalling and session making to get over that initial first but long lasting hurdle and I am out of ideas where to find that so any help would be appreciated the wiki and the forum is simply not enough

Ruud

 

[G.M.]

Welkom terug Ruud


the AI is just 0/1 yes/no decisions
best thing you can do is, help it as much as possible
-Set junctions in the most used direction, mainline
-Use direction markers, to guide trains to take the right track
-Use enough signals (even hidden can be used)
-No need for complex path finding, if you make your route and sessions well
-use enough speedboards
-name your junctions, triggers, trackmarks, passenger stations in a way you can understand later


a lot can be learned on youtube, just do a lil tut everyday
most of the dutch users are on Dutch Trainz forum, click link in my profile
groetjes GM

 

[pware]

The Trainz AI is never going to be perfect and the more complicated you make its tasks the more mistakes it will make. If you consider that real railways are still a very long way from implementing full AI control of all their operations, then the Trainz AI is really not that bad. You just have to keep things as simple as possible and give it as much help as possible.

To add to G.M's excellent points:-

• use the "Drive To" command instead of the "Navigate To" command. The difference is that "Drive To" will not attempt to find alternative paths and do stupid things such as going backwards.
• make sure that there is plenty of free track around junctions (where possible) if you are going to use the "Runaround" command.
• use Track Markers as way points for "Drive Via Trackmark" commands.

 

[JCitron]

I will concur. Drive To, Navigate To both industries and stations as well as track marks is the easiest way to setup a session. Setup direction markers to prevent AI from going the wrong way in those locations where they will do that such as on double-track where they will want to choose the shortest path and will go down the wrong track when building the route. Don't put these in the session because if the session is deleted, these won't appear on the route.

Do the same with track marks. These can be labeled as well so they're easy to find. Put them to direct the AI to take specific paths. Putting them too close to each other can get the AI and you confused, and if they are too close, the AI will cheat and take the wrong track to get around and pick up another. This will cause all kinds of confusion and a mess as the AI backs up and sits there twisting everything up into knots.

One of the things I find helpful is to use 3 track-marks in a row for those areas where you want the AI to remain on a mainline and not cheat and take the short cut through the yard. Place a track mark at the beginning of the stretch followed by one in the middle, and one at the exit. Space these track marks so that they're not too close to each other to keep the AI moving.

Signaling takes a bit of experience and experimenting. I have found that if you follow the prototype most of the time the AI will do okay. There are those places, and there are more than a few, where the AI defies the logic, and you'll need to wing it and either not use a signal or put in an extra. I wouldn't worry too much about these places and consider them one-off situations.

I wouldn't bother with fancy scripted actions and other nifty tricks until you the basics working and have some good experience with them. For the most part, using the simple track marks, drive via, navigate via or to and direction markers will keep your AI behaving. I have one route that will run for hours. I'll usually end up quitting before the AI do.

 

[philskene]

Hi Ruud --

Welcome back.

There are quite a few of us who often think that the "I" in "AI" is something of a misnomer because, as a general rule, if it is at all possible for the AI to do something stupid it invariably will.

As for sessions which incorporate AI, I think that I might be the only one who has attempted to do sessions where the Player is required to interact with the AI. If I'm wrong with this assumption I'd sure like to know 'cause I'd like to see how others have mastered this particular challenge.

If you would like to try one of my attempts where AI and Player interact, see the sessions for "Krashnburne", description here:

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...S19-layout-quot-The-Krashnburne-Railroad-quot

"IntenCity" is another layout along similar lines. And the payware "Bidye Traction" and "Shortz & Kerl".

Phil

 

[Hunter58]

Hi Ruud --

Welcome back.

There are quite a few of us who often think that the "I" in "AI" is something of a misnomer because, as a general rule, if it is at all possible for the AI to do something stupid it invariably will.

As for sessions which incorporate AI, I think that I might be the only one who has attempted to do sessions where the Player is required to interact with the AI. If I'm wrong with this assumption I'd sure like to know 'cause I'd like to see how others have mastered this particular challenge.

If you would like to try one of my attempts where AI and Player interact, see the sessions for "Krashnburne", description here:

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...S19-layout-quot-The-Krashnburne-Railroad-quot

"IntenCity" is another layout along similar lines. And the payware "Bidye Traction" and "Shortz & Kerl".

Phil

Hi Phil,

Especially your layouts made me return to trains. You never stopped to amaze me. One little drawback is that tearing apart your layouts to analyze what and how feels like a sin. The only layout I do not own is Bidye Traction and that is because it is electrified and I prefer the diesel and steam environment.
Even though I am a long term client at Auran does't makes me a skilled builder so for now I try to keep it simple on a one tile baseboard with a simple point to point route (no run around). But there should be some life in there. I am not necessary into driving but more watching and directing trains. And then it is highly frustrating to see a train is appearing from a portal under portal control where I told to drive a trackmarklist and it just stops somewhere or even tries to go back to the portal for some unknown reason (at least for me)

 

[Hunter58]

@jcitron I will but that won't solve my signal issue
Thanks

 

[Hunter58]

Welkom terug Ruud


the AI is just 0/1 yes/no decisions
best thing you can do is, help it as much as possible
-Set junctions in the most used direction, mainline
-Use direction markers, to guide trains to take the right track
-Use enough signals (even hidden can be used)
-No need for complex path finding, if you make your route and sessions well
-use enough speedboards
-name your junctions, triggers, trackmarks, passenger stations in a way you can understand later


a lot can be learned on youtube, just do a lil tut everyday
most of the dutch users are on Dutch Trainz forum, click link in my profile
groetjes GM

Dank je wel, nice to be back
Use enough signals, I can understand that, but above that you need some guide where to place them and what type that should be. I really went trough dozens of threads and YouTube is your friend I know. But almost all those links in there are dead ends (404) or if there is info it is pretty technical. Talking about type 4 and type 5 and ... I do like trains but I am not a technical engineer. I know about blocks but how to sinal a yard entry / exit or a passing loop on a single line, a side branche entrance and exit, a station etc.? I try and retry but that passenger train won't enter the station or my freight train waits at a signal for eternity making everything else coming to a grinding halt.
Sound familiar?

I ga ook maar weer eens kijken op de NL fora, I'll check the Dutch links

thanks and groetjes

Ruud

 

[1611mac]

My advice...
- as mentined above, find routes that fit your interests and disect the session commands and route and session layout. Learn from other's successes.
- experiment, experiment, experiment

Above all... have fun. Don't let faulure or burnout happen. Make the journey enjoyable.

 

[ricomon35]

I little background. I started out lang time ago with UTC and TRS2004 then TRS2006, 2010, 2012, TANE, 2019 and now 2022 (plus). So you could say I have been always loyal to Auran. But after some trail and error I mostly gave up because of strange behaviour. Trains running backwards, driver commands doing things I did not understand and weird signalling issues.
I ended up buying EEP (a German Sim). EEP has a steep learning curve, is mostly German oriented and focuses on the German speaking community. Most, if not all layouts are East or West German based and most of all there is no AI. You have to program everything yourself usnig contact, triggers and markers. Even their signals are dumb. OK a train will stop on a red signal but that is all. You uses control circuits or LUA to control your layout. EEP is very nice once you get the hang of it but I like Trainz better.



Oeps that is maybe a lot of background. I'm just a rambling 63 year old, sorry about that

Anyway here I am back on trainz and happy using the DLS and the content manager. Building is not really an issue but as it comes to signalling and session creation I get lost. I thought I had it figured out using just one type of signal and only put those on one side of a junction and never ever on a single track but that seemed to be a bit too simple, a tried interlocking towers and search the doc's, the forums and YT but a lot information is long gone. Sites are down, users gone. What is left are experienced people and long time users.
I need the basics for signalling and session making to get over that initial first but long lasting hurdle and I am out of ideas where to find that so any help would be appreciated the wiki and the forum is simply not enough

Ruud

I bought EEP 11 a while back. Gave up pretty quickly when I realized that every asset you want for route and consist building costs $$$. There really isn't much that is freeware.

I'd end up spending hundreds if not more to realize a route.
EEP will nickel and dime you to death before you finish anything resembling a quality layout.

Gander the store, see what I mean > https://eepshopping.de/?lang=2

The quality also wasn't there as far as looks goes. Textures are terrible, all low-res and look decent only from a distance.
Even the new EEP 15 STILL uses old layout tech from the older versions.

Hard Pass !


Rico

 

[Hunter58]

I bought EEP 11 a while back. Gave up pretty quickly when I realized that every asset you want for route and consist building costs $$$. There really isn't much that is freeware.

I'd end up spending hundreds if not more to realize a route.
EEP will nickel and dime you to death before you finish anything resembling a quality layout.

Gander the store, see what I mean > https://eepshopping.de/?lang=2

The quality also wasn't there as far as looks goes. Textures are terrible, all low-res and look decent only from a distance.
Even the new EEP 15 STILL uses old layout tech from the older versions.

Hard Pass !


Rico

I second that. You really don't want to know what $$$ I spend on EEP. But I must admit that EEP simulation wise is great. They did quite a catch up with version 16 and now 17. The layouts from a German guy (diebahnkommt) is absolutely top notch giving the graphic restrictions. But yes you have to buy the layouts and the assets. Building your own is pretty hard and as far as the graphics go they can't compete with Trainz.
But building a simple layout putting soem houses and a station down and let trains doing their things controlled with commands and code is simple you just have to code everything. Trainz is better in a lot of ways but I just wish it had skipped the AI thingy and uses contacts, triggers and lua code like EEP. Check out this video on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt7RyvD0SdM
But yes TRAINZ is a better choice in many ways that is why I opted for plus lately
I only wished there was a lot more accessible basic information regarding signaling and session making

 

[pitkin]

As for sessions which incorporate AI, I think that I might be the only one who has attempted to do sessions where the Player is required to interact with the AI. If I'm wrong with this assumption I'd sure like to know 'cause I'd like to see how others have mastered this particular challenge.



Phil

Phil, my sessions on the DLS using your routes are the same format, no AI except for scenery trains.

Pitkin

 

[ricomon35]

I second that. You really don't want to know what $$$ I spend on EEP. But I must admit that EEP simulation wise is great. They did quite a catch up with version 16 and now 17. The layouts from a German guy (diebahnkommt) is absolutely top notch giving the graphic restrictions. But yes you have to buy the layouts and the assets. Building your own is pretty hard and as far as the graphics go they can't compete with Trainz.
But building a simple layout putting soem houses and a station down and let trains doing their things controlled with commands and code is simple you just have to code everything. Trainz is better in a lot of ways but I just wish it had skipped the AI thingy and uses contacts, triggers and lua code like EEP. Check out this video on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt7RyvD0SdM
But yes TRAINZ is a better choice in many ways that is why I opted for plus lately
I only wished there was a lot more accessible basic information regarding signaling and session making

I watched the entire video. His layout is VERY beautiful.

EEP traffic runs so smooth, it does look/operate way better than our clunky slot car traffic in Trainz, LOL.

I am primarily a route builder, and only Model Rail layouts. EEP does appeal to me from that aspect, very much, but after watching the EEP 17 trailer, I can see that the ability to make your layouts custom looking is not there in EEP. You can't clone/modify paid assets easily, (or can you?).


I can't see creating something like my Petersdorf layout in EEP.


Pics

Rico