Changes affecting some locomotives with more than 8 throttle notches

[N3VSupport]

We have recently received reports that some locomotives with more than 8 throttle notches are showing changed behaviour in the latest TRS22 and TrainzPlus updates (SP6). Specifically, it appears as though the higher throttle notches are inaccessible or not working.

We've been looking into this and found that the affected locos are not configured correctly, and were previously only able to work due to setting the train throttle above the valid range (most likely accidentally). With SP6, the valid throttle range is now being more rigorously enforced, triggering an effective loss of power to the trains.

To confirm, we do support trains with more (or less) than 8 throttle notches. However, these need to be configured correctly for them to work. Specifically this means that the cabin asset must match the number of throttle notches on the engine asset. In addition, the throttle-power container of engine assets should never contain more than 8 entries (the standard/default number of throttle notches). Where excess 'throttle-power' data is provided, it will be unused.

Unfortunately, it's possible this issue was caused, or worsened, by some inaccurate data on the Trainz Wiki. This has now been fixed, and the relevant pages will be closely monitored to detect any incorrect changes in the future.

To resolve this issue, the creators of affected locomotives will need to update their content to fix the misconfiguration. In most cases, this will mean two edits to the engine asset:

Correcting the value of the 'throttle-notches' tag in the config.txt file
Adjusting the throttle-power container to have at most 8 'notches'. In some cases, this will be as simple as removing some intermediate positions and renumbering the rest. However some assets will require more careful attention to redistribute the data.

If you require more information about how to configure engine assets, please see the relevant wiki page here:

KIND Engine - TrainzOnline

online.ts2009.com

Or for more specific information regarding the throttle-notches and throttle-power tags:

"Motor" container - TrainzOnline

online.ts2009.com

"Throttle-power" container - TrainzOnline

online.ts2009.com

 

[Sanek17]

Why exactly 8 maximum? Not 10, not 15, not 20, but exactly 8? Or do you think all locomotives in reality have 8 and no more. Maybe it was just necessary to add the ability to register more positions, and not cut everything, so that later lovers would have to suffer with the settings, and now it turns out that it is impossible to make real characteristics of the locomotive

 

[Erendir]

And why do that? But what about locomotives with more than 8 positions? After all, the intermediate ones will be calculated from these 8, as a result of which they will not be able to reflect the real traction characteristics of the prototype.
It may be worth making it possible to specify a more arbitrary notches count, as it was before this fix, instead of trying to adjust the notches count to the DefaultCabin script. It would be a correct and universal solution that would satisfy everyone.

 

[RBrooks]

In the wiki it says:
For engine assets with more than 8 throttle notches, the maximum throttle notch will map to the notch 8 data in the config file, the middle throttle notch will map to notch 4, etc. The game code will use linear interpolation to determine the power output for the other (in between) throttle notches, as required.

So, basically the enginespec needs to be re-configured.

Specifically with the CHS2 (and chs2t, chs2k) locomotives it's a difficult task since the loco has 57 positions on the throttle-power container. Even if you change throttle-notches tag from 8 to 57, you will still need to delete all the notches except from 0 to 8. So if the notch 57 is now 8, the notch ...28? 29? is now 4? This is a very vague specification, which will cause unrealistic driving experience. I'm not even talking about the additional throttle positions here (I don't know how to explain that in english).

In the end it's just like Erendir above said, seems like not the best solution here. Theoretically can be fixed by any user, but the "fix" will not be what we expect.

 

[passanger]

The situation overall becomes more and more clear. So, each update makes custom content unplayable. Either routes start glitching like crazy or locomotive features stop working properly. And each time N3V blames content creators who basically plays by your rules, but you change the rules every time. You know, you call it "Simulator", but according to your standards it can be rather a simulator of driving a plain box with dummy cabin without any script on empty tile. In this case there will be no issues. Honestly, getting sick of it.

 

[ajrf]

With this I feel less and less eager to update anything. I guess that I will have to stick to Build 5.5 indefinitely until developers stop breaking things.

 

[vit_pnz]

This updated made simulator mostly unplayable. Because 90% of our locomotives have more than 8 throttle positions.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

This effects me way less than these folks but I agree with them completely. This is a detriment to the simulator. The power curve should not be limited to an arbitrary number. It should at the very minimum be able to match the number of notch stops.

Some of these locomotives will not be able to get close to their real life power curves and will be stuck with a gapped interpolation at best.

Reconsider this move or it may as well be a DCC only game. Change this stupid idea.

 

[JCitron]

Reconsider this move or it may as well be a DCC only game.

Perhaps this is the plan to level the playing field so the desktop version acts the same as the console and mobile game versions.

 

[Pendolino]

Perhaps this is the plan to level the playing field so the desktop version acts the same as the console and mobile game versions.

If this is the plan, goodbye Trainz... what's the fun driving in DCC Mode ?

Going back to the thread topic, almost every electric locomotive has more than 8 "notches":

• in conventional DC locomotives, electric motors are connected in series/one or two series of paralleled motors/parallel (this alone would be 4 notches); additionally, for every connection pattern there would be one or more steps of field weakening (up to 4) and this brings the overall number of notches to about 20.
• in conventional AC locomotives, electric motors are powered through an on-load tap changer: basically, you use only part of the secondary winding of the transformer to get only a part of the overall secondary voltage. Even in this case, the number of notches (steady operational states) is more than 8.
• in electronic locomotives, you basically have an unlimited number of "notches": I usually use 32

What's the rationale for this "improvement"?

 

[N3VSupport]

Hi All
Just to confirm, this is the existing system (ie how the core of Trainz has been designed to work for about 24 years now) with several bugs fixed. Unfortunately content that specifically relied on those bugs to function is no longer functioning as it did; content designed within the existing limitations will work correctly. A big part of this bug is that throttles were going beyond 100% to achieve more than 8 notches, which was not supported.

This has come up as this content was exploiting a bug; and at the time we fixed this bug we did not know that content was relying on the buggy behavior to operate. In talking to our team regarding this, they have confirmed that we are looking at improving this in a future update, something made possible as a result of the bug fixes. This is still a little way off though, but they have confirmed to me that this has been planned since this issue first came to light. This isn't a quick fix, as a lot of the internal systems are built around the throttle-power container having a maximum of 8 entries (and the throttle then having intermediate positions if required).

Right now the goal has been to inform the community of why the content is not working as it previously did, and how to fix it.

Again, you can still configure the controls to have more than 8 notches; however the power curve will currently need to be built around 8 power entries and will then be interpolated.

Regards

 

[Therock]

This has come up as this content was exploiting a bug; and at the time we fixed this bug we did not know that content was relying on the buggy behavior to operate. In talking to our team regarding this, they have confirmed that we are looking at improving this in a future update, something made possible as a result of the bug fixes. This is still a little way off though, but they have confirmed to me that this has been planned since this issue first came to light. This isn't a quick fix, as a lot of the internal systems are built around the throttle-power container having a maximum of 8 entries (and the throttle then having intermediate positions if required).

Sooooo in the future there are plans to re-implement the >8 notch engine spec implementation?

and the determined best course of action until that fix is fully worked into JET E2 is to effectively gimp content that has been using this same 24 year exploit until then? rather than just let it ride until a properly tested solution is implemented across the board?

 

[TheRealWoodman]

That's great you guys found a squeaking wheel that no one else could find and didn't ask if it did. The internal simulation aspect of this game is already a joke so why would you further that down the path by limiting stuff.


Class 37s don't use notched throttles, so you think it's appropriate to limit them to 8 imaginary notches?

 

[N3VSupport]

That's great you guys found a squeaking wheel that no one else could find and didn't ask if it did. The internal simulation aspect of this game is already a joke so why would you further that down the path by limiting stuff.


Class 37s don't use notched throttles, so you think it's appropriate to limit them to 8 imaginary notches?

We aren't, you can have as many notches as you want, as we have explicitly stated multiple times now.

Right now, you can't have more than 1/8 increments in the throttle-power container, up to a maximum amount of 100% throttle.

So if you want to give that Class 37 100 positions on the throttle (to give it '1%' increments to represent reasonably closely an un-notched throttle), you can. What you can't do is make the throttle go to (for example) 150% to 'represent' 15 notches; it has to be 15 notches within the 0-100% range.

Regards

 

[Erendir]

But linear interpolation is not even close to being able to provide an acceptable traction characteristic for a locomotive with more than 8 positions. How do you propose to solve the issue of field attenuation? In your opinion, can it also be simply interpolated?
You write that the team currently does not have the opportunity to make more than 8 positions in the throttle container, as this is supposedly a complex and lengthy process. But for some reason, before the release of HF6, it all worked fine. Just return it as it was. And if we can squeeze into something and find an acceptable alternative, then cutting off one of the most important functions in a railroad simulator is just a shot in the foot. You just made a whole mountain of locomotives unusable at one point, without any possibility of even just restoring them to an acceptable state, and eliminating the possibility of creating similar machines for the game in the future.
I'm sorry, but this is no longer a simulator. Yes, Trainz, as a sandbox, has no competitors today. But you are rapidly doing everything to negate this advantage.

 

[vit_pnz]

Making locomotives unusable sabotages years of work for routes' developers. Some of them work for 10+ years on their maps
Big parts of Trainz community have WIP on big projects with hundreds kms of tracks. Big routes are being build for 10+ years and still have perspective to set scenarios like IRL.
There's no point of buying and playing TRS if there's no locomotives to drive, as it said above, Trainz have no competitors at this point. As IRL train driver i don't accept DCC mode and if have nothing to drive, i'd rather pick any other simulator.
Scripters have seen many things broken and they've been fixing everything until now, don't end years of work on routes and locomotives at the same time

 

[RBrooks]

In talking to our team regarding this, they have confirmed that we are looking at improving this in a future update, something made possible as a result of the bug fixes. This is still a little way off though, but they have confirmed to me that this has been planned since this issue first came to light. This isn't a quick fix, as a lot of the internal systems are built around the throttle-power container having a maximum of 8 entries (and the throttle then having intermediate positions if required).

My understanding is the team is going to find future solution that'd be able to satisfy both your existing limitations and loco authors, right?

Well it's good you're working on it, however I propose for things to return to previous state in the meantime while you're working around this bug. And when you do find the solution, please give our community to test it first before releasing it officially. I'm pretty sure everyone's agreeing with me on this.