2995Valliant
Well-known member
It's a bit late to start worrying about that one - boiler volume has been in m^3 since TC3.
Pre-TC3 specs (i.e. below build 2.8) still work (to the extent that they ever did) though.
Changes affecting some locomotives with more than 8 throttle notches
- Thread starter N3VSupport
- Start date
Pre-TC3 specs (i.e. below build 2.8) still work (to the extent that they ever did) though.
ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
As above, you can have as many notches as you want.
We haven't prevented you from making locomotives correctly with more than 8 throttle notch positions.
However the asset needs to be configured correctly for it to work. If it is incorrectly configured, then it will not work.
Regards
Traction characteristics can be specified for only 8 positions. All the others (as many as you want) will be calculated by linear interpolation. This does not allow, even in the first approximation, to make the characterization at least somehow close to the original. In fact, it's a semi-finished product.
I just don't understand, when giving such answers, do the simulator developers themselves not understand such simple things, or do they consider the audience to be stupid?
I just don't understand, when giving such answers, do the simulator developers themselves not understand such simple things, or do they consider the audience to be stupid?
There's one thing I can't understand: why did the game developers even think all locomotives in the world have 8 positions? Give the add-on creators more freedom in locomotive design, instead of cutting functionality! How does this even affect the game? Just let people add as many positions to a locomotive as they need and that's it.
ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
The Trainz enginespec system was designed, many many years ago, around basic EMD and similar products. Which have 8 throttle positions.
The throttle is designed to be between 0 and 100% throttle. It does not, and has not, officially supported more than 100% throttle.
Some content was incorrectly using over 100% throttle. A related bug was fixed, which resulted in assets using more than 100% throttle no longer working.
We have provided information how, at the current time, creators can resolve their content to use 0-100% throttle, with as many notch positions as required. Yes it will require interpolation between the 8 'throttle-power' entries in the enginespec. If creators choose not to resolve the problematic content, then that content will not work correctly, as it was using unsupported (or broken) methods.
We are looking at options to improve handling of locomotives with more than 8 notches in future, but we cannot say when or if any specific changes may be implemented as this is still being looked into. Hence the information provided in this thread, and the details given to assist creators with repairing the content to work within the current constraints of what Trainz does officially support.
Regards
The throttle is designed to be between 0 and 100% throttle. It does not, and has not, officially supported more than 100% throttle.
Some content was incorrectly using over 100% throttle. A related bug was fixed, which resulted in assets using more than 100% throttle no longer working.
We have provided information how, at the current time, creators can resolve their content to use 0-100% throttle, with as many notch positions as required. Yes it will require interpolation between the 8 'throttle-power' entries in the enginespec. If creators choose not to resolve the problematic content, then that content will not work correctly, as it was using unsupported (or broken) methods.
We are looking at options to improve handling of locomotives with more than 8 notches in future, but we cannot say when or if any specific changes may be implemented as this is still being looked into. Hence the information provided in this thread, and the details given to assist creators with repairing the content to work within the current constraints of what Trainz does officially support.
Regards
Lots of rude and out-of-line responses on this thread. Sorry that you guys have to deal with that.
From the rest of us, thank you for the info you've provided on this.
Cheers
Unfortunately, it is not possible to fix existing locomotives. It's not a question of just simply correcting the number of throttle positions in throttle-notches. The problem is that it can't bring them back even close to the level they were before 5.6.
I'm not trying to say that you broke the existing mechanics. I understand the reason for what happened. However, all this does not negate the problem that eventually arose with the implementation of the traction part of locomotives, the number of throttle positions of which is more than 8. Today it is simply impossible to implement them fully.
I am pleased to hear that you have understood our problem and you promise that this issue will be resolved in the future. That's what I wanted to hear. But still, it seems to me that the issue of traction is one of the most fundamental in the simulator. And the wording "someday later", unfortunately, does not inspire much optimism. In any case, we can only wait for corrections, as, at the moment, in the current situation, trainz as a simulator, for me personally, has lost all meaning.
ZecMurphy,
If you're going to make a railroad simulator, at least do some research! You're being told by people who know the subject matter, but you don't want to listen to your community! There are locomotives with 15 or 16 positions instead of 8. Traction characteristics should be customizable, not based on an average calculation! Traction characteristics can't be calculated as an average, as physical behavior varies greatly! Did you study physics in school? What you've done sets your product back.
I'm refusing to update to the latest patch because of complaints of new bugs. An update is supposed to improve a game, not break things that weren't broken before. I'll just stay on build 129335 until things improve with the latest patch of 22. Hopefully the N3V team can be educated on how real locomotives work. Sounds like the new patch makes Trainz 22 almost unplayable if it breaks a lot of locomotive throttles. But, I usually use DCC. Is it only the more advanced locomotive controls that are broken in the patch, not DCC?
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That's 100% right. Agree. Trainz is not just Thomas locos
ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
This only affects realistic mode (ie CAB mode), and only on locomotives that have both more than 8 throttle notches, and are incorrectly configured with such. DCC mode won't be affected; and to be very frank, the majority of locomotives in Trainz do not face this issue as they were configured correctly (ie do not make the throttle exceed 100%, irrespective of how many notches they actually have).
Regards
It sounds like "I don't see a problem, so there isn't one."
We are trying to convey to you the simple point that linear interpolation does not allow us to make these locomotives as close in traction to the prototype as those that were before this update. Thus, it is almost impossible to implement positions with a weakening of the field, the transition to which is not linear at all. In my understanding, it is important for the simulator to fully configure exactly the part that is responsible for the simulation. In a railway simulator, these are obviously the traction characteristics of locomotives. But it seems that you don't want to hear us. To me, from my couch (although I am a programmer by profession, but not in game development), the task of using more than 8 characteristics of the throttle valve is not difficult, especially considering the fact that it worked before patch 5.6. But you're trying your best to defend the fact that it's not necessary at all.
It is possible, of course, that N3V believes that DCC is enough for a railway simulator. Or linear thrust control in a kind of realistic mode. But then you just say so directly. For us, the main mode is DCC, and everything suits us. And then, of course, all questions about this topic will simply disappear. We will understand that Trainz is not the platform where we can implement a realistic model for locomotives that are in demand in our part of the community, and we will look for a feasible alternative.
They did say that they're coming out with a patch for this someday soon(tm).
The unfortunate thing is they "fixed" the software first then told us later about the issue that worked fine with the workaround instead of giving us a heads up about an upcoming fix later on.
The unfortunate thing is they "fixed" the software first then told us later about the issue that worked fine with the workaround instead of giving us a heads up about an upcoming fix later on.
ZecMurphy,
I've known you since 2004! During this time, you've implemented countless features that have helped your community grow. With each new version, you've delivered something new, and we, as a community, have grown together for many years. Each new release of your product has left the competition far behind.Your product must continue to grow, and what you've done is leading it to degradation and simplification. Such simplification is acceptable for a short-lived game, but not for such a serious product that has been developing since 2004!
Please listen to your community!
Unfortunately, most electric locomotives found around the world (at least, those designed after the 1920s) have more than 8 throttle notches. Just to make a few examples:
These are the speed-tractive effort of a E.656 locomotive (the last non-electronic Italian locomotive): it has 20 notches. How I am supposed to realistically reproduce its tractive effort when I can only define 8 speed-tractive effort curves in the enginespec config? As far as I can see, it can't be done (now)
From the Wikipedia page about the PRR GG1 (AC, non electronic):
Transmission Alternating current fed via a 22 position transformer tap changer to paired traction motors geared to a Quill drive
I couldn't care less about DCC: I never, ever use it
To be very frank, I strongly disagree.
ZecMurphy ,
Well, it turns out I'm one of those creators of "incorrect/erroneous" content. This is me creating traction characteristics, using more than 8 positions for traction and dynamic braking.True, and at this point there are basically no questions. For the American railroad legend EMD SD 40-2, everything is fully achievable, or rather, to the extent of the developer's understanding of this content. Because even these eight traction and dynamic brake positions have their own peculiarities, which can be seen in the graphs below.
ZecMurphy, well, here we need to clarify what exactly we're talking about—positions or 100% power? Because the number of positions and full
power are completely different things. Yes, the SD40 achieves 100% power using 8 positions, as do most North American EMD and GE diesel locomotives. As do most diesel locomotives across most of the world, which are based on the same North American locomotives. But the global locomotive fleet doesn't end there, and it's not limited to just these control schemes; there are also European, Asian, and ex-USSR locomotives. The main difference in this fleet of locomotives is the presence of electric locomotives, which, due to their much greater power, use many more positions for control than just 8. And it just so happens that ex-USSR diesel locomotives all have 15, and some even 16, controller positions. Based on this, if we talk about 100% power, then for ex-USSR diesel locomotives this will be achieved at 15 positions, and for most ex-USSR electric locomotives more than 35-40 positions, both for traction mode and dynamic braking.
Okay, so it was a bug, or rather, a feature. A feature that didn't interfere with anything or bother anyone. But it worked, allowing for 100% realistic traction characteristics for locomotives, both diesel and electric. Let me emphasize again: this feature didn't interfere with any of the other Trainz features. So why are you calling this feature "incorrectly" today? What exactly is this "incorrectly"? I haven't seen any specific, well-reasoned reasons in this thread for suddenly banning this feature out of the blue. So far, I see only one argument: 8 throttles, and that's it, that's what we want. That's the only right way.
Well, it seems like the error has been fixed, but now there are more problems... 1 step forward, 100 steps back... And the funniest, most childish, and stupid thing is - there is no alternative solution...
This is impossible ... The proposed method, yes, can be used to correctly configure some traction units. For example, locomotives with asynchronous drives, but not older types of DC drives. Or they will be clones of the THOMAS steam locomotive... which only requires three positions - two forward :
- Oh, I'm going...
- Oh, so fast, I'm about to faint...
one reverse:
- Oh, my God, the little sheds are running away from me...
Just examples.
2TE121, 4000 hp per section, 15 poz
TE3, 16 poz
What if we want to implement each section of a single position separately? Separately, the full excitation section, weakening field 1, and weakening field 2. How many positions will there be? Scripting isn't a problem; there are people who can and want to do this...
Here are the full specifications of the Czech electric locomotive ChS2, which already has traction for 52 positions, and which was killed by this latest update.
In the first screenshot, Fig. 5, look closely at the difference between positions 20 and 21. Position 20 is the running position for the series-connected traction motors, which allows for the 5 field weakening positions shown in the second screenshot. Position 21 is the rheostat position for the series-parallel connection of traction motors. There's no interpolation or 8 positions here. Direct reading of the assigned positions is required.
And all of this has already been implemented in Trainz...
VL10 DC electric locomotive
The first screenshot shows the traction characteristics. 2 and 3 are regenerative braking. There are three motor connections, 15 positions each. Are you also suggesting using interpolation?
VL80S, AC electric locomotive
33 positions. Bold lines indicate the most common positions. At first glance, it seems like interpolation could be used; the lines are similar, but there's a problem: at certain positions, the traction won't match the graph. And with it, the load currents...
I could go on for a long time, but I think these examples are enough to understand the impossibility of implementing such locomotives using only 8 positions.
24 years old... 24 years old... suggests that your words don't reflect the true state of affairs in space. I personally understand perfectly well that you have no arguments, reasons, or desires to resolve this issue. You yourself say that most locomotives are working properly, so why would you do something that holds no particular interest or importance to you? I doubt that in the foreseeable future a solution to this issue will be proposed, a worthy solution, and not another crutch.
What could be proposed as a solution to this problem?
My take on the issue:
- the simplest action would be to cancel the so-called "bug fix" until better times,
- give users custom containers for traction and dynamic brakes, with no limit on the number of positions, from which the desired position could be directly set by a script. And, as a science fiction idea, have a coefficient that could change the applied force values, controlled by a script. For example, a cold diesel engine produces slightly less power... or a traction motor fails en route... 16% of the thrust "evaporates" in 6 motors...
Regards
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