Big idea - comments please!

Hey Whistlehead, I don't mean to be rude, but please don't be selective when you quote people. This is what I said:

. . . .The idea of changing from conventional track to overhead probably has too many technical issues.

I think I knew what you meant the first time around. I actually read your entire post and watched your video. I think that's more than you did for me.

BTW, technical does not mean mechanical! If there's an easy way of doing something and a hard way, the easy way is technically the best way.
 
Hey Whistlehead, I don't mean to be rude, but please don't be selective when you quote people. This is what I said:

. . . .The idea of changing from conventional track to overhead probably has too many technical issues.

I think I knew what you meant the first time around. I actually read your entire post and watched your video. I think that's more than you did for me.

BTW, technical does not mean mechanical! If there's an easy way of doing something and a hard way, the easy way is technically the best way.

Sorry, I must have misread your post. I apologise.
 
I'm all for new ideas and I do like the concept of what you're suggesting.
In my opinion, I think that something like this would be too heavy on the overhead concrete beams because of the standard rail wheels underneath.
The steel used for those wheels is extremely heavy.
That being said, one option you might have is to set it up with rubber tires underneath with a steel centerbeam to both supply power and work as a guideway. This is widely used at airports like Las Vegas McCarran, Orlando International, and Denver International.
 
...when I can figure out how to make track...

Well, here's an idea:

We have a tram track, called 'Tram'. We also have a monorail track called 'Mono'. We have a stretch of 'Tram'. When you want it to turn go overground, you simply change the rail to 'Mono'. However, you have a special piece of track which is a stretch of 'Mono' over a stretch of 'Tram'. When you want it to do the opposite, you simply do the reverse. You then have this:

Key:
Tram: _
Mono: -
Combined track: =

_______________=-----------------------=__________________

Simple concept, you only need to make 3 assets.
 
Well, here's an idea:

We have a tram track, called 'Tram'. We also have a monorail track called 'Mono'. We have a stretch of 'Tram'. When you want it to turn go overground, you simply change the rail to 'Mono'. However, you have a special piece of track which is a stretch of 'Mono' over a stretch of 'Tram'. When you want it to do the opposite, you simply do the reverse. You then have this:

Key:
Tram: _
Mono: -
Combined track: =

_______________=-----------------------=__________________

Simple concept, you only need to make 3 assets.

Yes, that's the general idea. What I mean is: How do I make track (Gmax-wise)?
 
I figured that you would probably be better off with something of a "modular" system that could operate on lightly modified tracks. From an engineering standpoint, there's really no need to have the "monorail" connections permanently attached to the carriages. If you used a "box" type rail system as is used in Japan, then you could disconnect the monorail bogies as needed. Keeping this in mind I modified an existing LRV drawing to reflect this. I will explain notes on this below the image.

brt-2.gif


1.) Note, the bogies are "skirted" including the middle connection point This is a part of the monorail system. Built to a narrower gauge than regular rail systems (42") the Monorail's wheelsets do not need as much clearance as a more traditional carriage. This also plays into note two.

2.) The surface bogies are designed to "fall away." During transition, after the overhead connections are made, the monorail will move forward. In doing so, its surface bogies will drop (by means of an inclined rail system) lower than the train itself. Crews there will remove all connections from the main car, and apply a number of special "plates" which protect the general public from anything which could fall from the carriages. These plates also protect the electrical connections from the weather. The bogies are pushed away, stored for return trips at the same station. (Stations are dual use. One side is transition to mono rail, one side is transition from. Similar to break of gauge stations.

3.) Power is collected through two methods. On the surface, the cars use a safe "slot" system, similar to what was used in NYC for a number of years. This removes the need for overhead catenary. While on the "rail" or mono rail, a similar system is used where by power is collected by a spring loaded shoe that rides on a rail concealed above the monorail bogies, within the sealed "box" track.

4.) Monorail bogies are not permanently attached to the train, but instead are pulled down and connected through the use of several heavy duty pins. Power connections are made through the front, and rear bogey connections, with the center connection serving just as an Idler or articulation point. The center connection is unpowered, but uses the same bogies as the powered points.

5.) Total transition time from surface to monorail, or vice versa, is about five minutes, maybe a bit more in rush hour situations. Using two crews, one to connect the overhead system, and one to remove the surface system, is suggested.
 
I can see the point in your post, don't get me wrong.

But, leaving the monorail grips on permanently allows you to drive the tram straight from the rails to the monorail beam. You wouldn't even have to stop the tram (But it would be a good idea to slow it down a bit...)

OK, can everyone please hold the posts back now until I release the demonstration route. This would be much appreciated.

If you want to help for now, I would quite like to know how to create track for Trainz...

Chris
 
@AJFox: true isn't it?

Anyways, whistlehead! This reminds me of a project(maybe it was a scam, I'm not sure?), its called the Interstate Traveler. It is indeed American(did the Interstate give it away? lol), and was originally intended for a project in Detroit(one of two metropolitan areas without a true mass transport system).

Hydro-powered(Albeit not suspended)!

http://www.interstatetraveler.us/
 
@AJFox: true isn't it?

Anyways, whistlehead! This reminds me of a project(maybe it was a scam, I'm not sure?), its called the Interstate Traveler. It is indeed American(did the Interstate give it away? lol), and was originally intended for a project in Detroit(one of two metropolitan areas without a true mass transport system).

Hydro-powered(Albeit not suspended)!

http://www.interstatetraveler.us/

The theory is good, but you can't help but think it would be A: rather expensive and B: very hard to co-ordinate all of those vehicles...

Unless they have something like the Trainz AI system (Set priority, select destination, it works out the rest) but hopefully rather better than that!

Chris
 
Looking further though the site, I find the main difference is the fact that theirs is a totally new form of transport. Mine, on the other hand, brings together two older, well tested forms.

They aim to completley redesign the whole of America, it seems. It's a vision of the future. Mine, however, is a bit more down-to-earth. It's based almost entirely on proven technology, there's nothing revolutionary about it. It's a variation on a basic scheme that has lasted almost 200 years.

Theirs is a fantastic idea, I'll grant them that. It would be great. But it's also quite unrealistic. I was fine with the idea, until I noticed a few things:

1: The trains are maglevs.
2: The tracks occasionally change gauge, so the trains would need a VERY strange hydraulic system.
3: They bank on curves
4: You get your own private car transporter (And where does it come from? You'd have to wait quite a while for it to actually arrive...)
5: The huge family cruisers.

It is a great (and very bold) idea. It COULD work... but I doubt that it ever will. If it does, then who can say that mine won't work? :p

Then again, revolutionary ideas are what shape the world. The Railway was a revolutionary idea in it's time, and today the technology behind it is barely confusing. Steel rails guide steel wheels.

There are a few half-baked ideas, but the theory is sound. It would need a lot of work, though.

I'm going to end this post right now, I'm having an argument with myself.

*Post ending - Countdown minus 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...*

Cheers,

Chris :wave:
 
I think the point I was trying to make was that by having the connections attached permanently to the cars, you present a couple problems that many cities just wouldn't want to deal with.

First and foremost is the question of clearance. The average Tram car is 12 feet tall, (give or take) with an added 5 feet for the pole. (again this is just rough estimates). However the majority of cities that have surface traffic (trams) would find issues with the system as it stands designed. The reason is because catenary wires are "variable". When passing under a bridge, it's not uncommon for the wire to lower down, pressing the pantograph or pole down with it. This image, taken from wikipedia, demonstrates this with a feeder rail. However, notice how low the pantograph is, compared to usual running. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...P1220601.jpg/800px-Overhead_rail_P1220601.jpg With the fixed system as you've imagined, it would limit the use of the cars, since the connection points would prevent the system from passing under certain locations.

When I took the carriage design and revamped it, suggesting a "transition" system, it was based on this problem that I didn't think you knew or understood. In my own design, I expected that the system could be in use well prior to its completion, with the carriages already in place and operating while the overhead track system was being built. By using the slot system also, it allows for greater versatility, since there is only a minimal overhead clearance, meaning that retrofitting of existing tram systems would be much easier. Furthermore, with the removal of the overhead wires, beautification projects can be added, as you would no longer have the eyesore of a series of overhead power lines.

Lastly, when I imagined my own variant of your system, I expected that the trains would operate on a tram type system with a series of stops along the way. Using an existing surface system, the cars would then enter a reserved area where the transition would happen. This would all be done in a station setting, with the "five" minutes or so being taken up while the train was already stopped for passengers. In that, I used the following video for inspiration. This video shows how the Talgo can change its gauge on the fly, without having to stop the train. I expected something similar, though with a minor stop to allow the bottom panels to be attached.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdOKVFx5Yx0

Lastly, there is one reason why I figured the removal of the bogies would be better. The simple truth is, leaving them in place is much harder to engineer than to use a moderately normal system where they are removed. Keeping them as part of the carriage you present the chance for lawsuit should something fall off the bogies, or the wheelset itself disengage and fall away.

Edit:

One idea I considered in my own design, that I'd like to toss out there to you, also based off the "talgo" break of gauge system, would be to have both the undercarriage bogies and the roof bogies mounted hydraulically. As the operater approaches the change of control system, he raises the roof wheel set, and then once it engages, raises the lower ones. The design problem here however goes back to the final note. First it would be insanely difficult to design. Secondly, there would need to be some way, similar to airplane landing gear, to close off the openings to prevent anything from falling off the carriage and harming someone below. If this could be worked out, then you could continue the design as you invisioned it and change gauge on the fly. However it's something that would require much more engineering than the seperate system.
 
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I do totally understand your contributions here. They are all good ideas. While it would probably be unpractical for the monorail grips to retract, yet be strong enough to support the tram when they are in use (Which is pretty much what you said), the retractable undercar is a very good point, and one I had not considered.

I do understand your method of switching modes. The only problem is that this is supposed to be a continuous operation, with the trains running directly from beam to track and back again.

All your ideas are good, and I shall make a note of them. Maybe I need to revise my plans a little. If it were possible, could you contact me via my e-mail (Chrisnightingale27<at>yahoo.co.uk) so we could discuss this in more detail.

Now, excuse me while I make a few hard sketches... (I almost always work better on paper than in my head)

Chris :wave:
 
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The theory is good, but you can't help but think it would be A: rather expensive and B: very hard to co-ordinate all of those vehicles...

Unless they have something like the Trainz AI system (Set priority, select destination, it works out the rest) but hopefully rather better than that!

Chris

Yes its very intriguing engineering. They do(I think at least) the whole system includes an AI-like feature. Whether its possible or not is definetly the million dollar(pounds to you) question. The technology hasn't been proven, but it is supposedly all "private", no government funding or whatnot.

Regarding, the US's vision: The government(more specifically the Federal Rail Administration, a division under the US Department of Transporatation), has decided on a conventional HSR mode - this is like the Chinese CRH, French TGV, German ICE, etc. Its intended to increase jobs, population density, and create a more urban United States, as opposed to post-WWII suburbia.

Anyways, good luck with your project(I saw your other express suspension mono-maglev)
 
Actually, I'd have to disagree with you on much of that magicmaker. Personally I think that removing bogies and/or overhead supports would be likely to be far too time consuming, logistically complex, and technically more, not less, complex. A system like this, for urban transport, really needs to have seamless changeovers, as you could be changing several times in a journey of perhaps a dozen miles; anything that involves large changeover facilities and manual handling isn't going to be economic.

I agree that the monorail hanger may have to retract for clearance reasons, but perhaps it's better to simply use a roof mounted system that is very compact (perhaps modelled on overhead roller coaster tracks (2-rail) rather than a single concrete beam.

You're totally right that the power pick-up for monorail mode needs to be integrated in the beamway - this is normal for monorails in any case. Power pick-up for tramway mode could be either conventional overhead or conduit. Overhead is preferred in most of the world - I imagine it's cheaper or more reliable or both (otherwise conduit is definitely less ugly).

Oh, and that 'Interstate Traveller' thing - just think of the Simpson's 'Monorail' episode. I'm not sure if it's intended to be serious, if it's an investment scam, or if it's intended to cynically distract gullible governments from tried and tested (but considerably less sexy) means of mass transit. Compared to that, Whistlehead's idea is a model of sensibility...

Paul
 
I think that a compromise between the two ideas needs to be reached.

It is a good idea that the wheels retract or disconnect when moving to monorail mode. I am giving this some thought, it's a good point.

But the retractable grips would be harder, as the train then has gravity against it, and it would be very difficult to create grips that can fold away, yet are tough enough to support the entire weight of the train hanging from them. This is not to say it would be impossible.

And as Paulzmay says, the method magickmaker suggested would be far too time-consuming. You'd be better off with two different networks, and the passengers change trains at a special dual-level station. The whole point of the system is that the trams change mode seamlessly.

I have thought of a possible solution, but even if the grips were down there are still the current collectors which are set at a rigid height.

A bit more info on the pantos: They are sprung to press against either the dual wires on either side of the beam (Monorail - See Royane's post on pantographs and trolley poles) or the single wire above the tracks (tram). In monorail mode, one acts as the negative and the other the positive, and in tram mode, they both collect current which is dispersed through the wheels in the conventional manner. I'll post a few more details on them soon.

I'm sure a reasonable solution is possible, it just needs to be found.

I'll get my sketchpad out.

Chris :wave:
 
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Operation

Not to say your idea is not good, but in reality is too complicated to be cost effective. Existing mono systems are set to carry cars on top, so your system will need to be a new, even more cost. In the game you will not be able to connect to both tracks as the connecting points are not going to be the same. so a transfer will need some major cosideration! But go for it, after all it's meant for fun!
 
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