About to embark on an experiment......

Lol, please don't turn this into another "I've got a little ---- so I have to compensate with a bigger computer" thread.
Nope, I've never had any problem in that department to say the least, I don't even have to put any work into with the ladies, lol.




We've been over this before - well, lots of people and you, IIRC. The OP's rig is overkill for Trainz, as are a lot of less exotic "gamerz" rigs.
It's not over kill at all if you demand the best possible image quality along with maintaining a consistent frame rate that matches the refresh rate of the monitor.



Actually, I posted that link because I was looking at prices the other night and was rather surprised to learn people would actually spend $3,100 on a video card that offers little or no benefit over cheaper hardware. Kind of like running Trainz on some of the high-end rigs out there.
Again not if you demand the best possible image quality along with maintaining a consistent frame rate that matches the refresh rate of the monitor as my screen shots in the past have proven.



The point is, it's pointless, past a certain point, to upgrade one's hardware. You can't see more than x number of fps (for the most part, really about 30, though one can argue about fluidity, etc.)
That argument has been beaten to death and is usually only questioned by those who have never seen a sim/game run at a consistent frame rate (60+ fps) with v-sync enabled.




Again, it's interesting academically to know what a Quadro (or, really, even what a 400/500 card) would do with TS2010, since no one has posted results AFAIK.
I have already with the 480 GTX and can post some results again this time with the 580 GTX.
 
I bought this computer to run my company. I plan on using it for the next ten years


Exactly, which is the reason why those specs are not ideal for gaming.



I plan on using it for the next ten years so the awesome upgrade capabilities in terms of memory addition CPU and raid storage were the main selling points.
I amagine running your “company” is'nt that demanding of computers. Ten years is a very long time for computer hardware unless you are just surfing the internet and running office applications.


The “upgrade” options aren't any different than what you would have gotten out of any high end, custom built machine with quality components. I guess many of us here who are running high end custom machines could say the same thing about our “upgrade” ability, again nothing special.
 
It's not over kill at all if you demand the best possible image quality along with maintaining a consistent frame rate that matches the refresh rate of the monitor.

...

That argument has been beaten to death and is usually only questioned by those who have never seen a sim/game run at a consistent frame rate (60+ fps) with v-sync enabled.

Game runs buttery smooth for me even without that.

I have already with the 480 GTX and can post some results again this time with the 580 GTX.

Cool. I'd love to see that versus what sethmcs posts. I'm not expecting a big difference (well, not really any, actually) apart from the price of the hardware. Which, IIRC, costs ten times more than the 480/580.
 
Game runs buttery smooth for me even without that.


Prove it, give us some screen shots like I've posted in the past showing the frame rate with Fraps. Make sure you crank up the resolution and AA/AF along with all of the settings in TS2010 at their maximum.


I've got two other Core 2 machines at my disposal with similar specs to what you've posted in past and no, the game doesn't run “buttery smooth” (depending on what you consider buttery smooth, of course) on those two machines.


With CPU dependent games like Trainz, the i7 setups run circles around my Core 2 machines.
 
Prove it, give us some screen shots like I've posted in the past showing the frame rate with Fraps. Make sure you crank up the resolution and AA/AF along with all of the settings in TS2010 at their maximum.

...

With CPU dependent games like Trainz, the i7 setups run circles around my Core 2 machines.

No ----, Sherlock. The problem is, you won't SEE the difference most of the time. That's the part you don't get. We've already played the fps game before. What YOU haven't demonstrated is your super-human ability to differentiate between 30 and 60 and 90 and 120 fps.

Next you'll tell me a Porsche is faster than my Hyundai. That's all well and good, but what difference does it make when the speed limit is 65? (Other than having a 3x more expensive Porsche to compensate for a lack of manhood or for bragging rights, of course...)

I don't think I can dumb it down any more than I have. Repeatedly. Either you will get it or you won't but I'm pretty well convinced you don't want to.
 
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I amagine running your “company” is'nt that demanding of computers. Ten years is a very long time for computer hardware unless you are just surfing the internet and running office applications.

Believe it or not I have computer from 1998 that runs windows 98. Likewise I have a computer from 2004 the runs XP. Both machines run fine and do exactly what they are designed for and I might keep both in service. It seems that we have contempt prior to investigation. I will certainly push this workstation to see what it can do. Railyards filled with cars and maximum distance. Most systems built from the ground up have bottlenecks. HP claims that this system is designed to have no bottlenecks. We shall see. Until I bought this machine I never even heard of Quatro line of cards but FX4800 is marketed as a high end card. It renders at 76.8 Gb/sec and has 1.5 Gb memory. Can't perform all that bad. Again we shall see. First I have to get Trainz to work on this computer and get some data. I want to run TRS2004 first then TRS2009. My hope is TRS2004 will run much better and I do have a highly demanding route to test it on.:)
 
What YOU haven't demonstrated is your super-human ability to differentiate between 30 and 60 and 90 and 120 fps.
What's the refresh rate of the monitor Einstein? If it's a LCD it's most likely 60 Hz., so yes there is a difference (which any human can see unless they are visually impaired ).


So the question remains can your system maintain a consistent 60 fps with excellent image quality and with all the settings turned up in TS2010?


That's where the big advantage comes in with the high end hardware that some of us run.



Either you will get it or you won't but I'm pretty well convinced you don't want to.
We're all very convinced that you won't get it because how would you know otherwise?
 
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Believe it or not I have computer from 1998 that runs windows 98. Likewise I have a computer from 2004 the runs XP. Both machines run fine and do exactly what they are designed for and I might keep both in service.
and your point is?



It seems that we have contempt prior to investigation.
I think your investigation should have included research in a real hardware forum prior to purchase, Google can be very helpful, lol.



Most systems built from the ground up have bottlenecks. HP claims that this system is designed to have no bottlenecks. We shall see.
They do? Could you give us examples of this? How exactly would a custom built machine with properly selected components have more bottlenecks then a pre-built system from HP with questionable/unknown components?




HP claims that this system is designed to have no bottlenecks. We shall see.
Lol, you are kidding right?
 
What's the refresh rate of the monitor Einstein? If it's a LCD it's most likely 60 Hz., so yes there is a difference (which any human can see unless they are visually impaired ).

You never answered my question: What does it matter? You probably won't notice a difference, so the extra capacity is merely academic.

Depending on who you ask and how, the human eye ceases to detect flicker (for most people) at 24 fps/Hz. These historic tests do not differentiate between progressive and interlace as this refers to analog video. NTSC is 30/29.97 fps. I can't tell you how much "better" (and I tend to doubt you can) that is but it's 25% more than is required. 60 fps (Hz) is 250% of what is required. I haven't really noticed much difference between NTSC SD at 30 fps and 60 fps, nor have I noticed much difference between ~30 fps and ~60 fps on games. This is consistent with tests that suggest higher frame rates only might affect light/dark perception but not motion. The games I do play don't have much background variation (Trainz, FS, Star Wars Battlefront.) Maybe you play the one game that does.

If you really think the difference is that significant, if you really think your eye is that sensitive, then, probably, then your precious Win7 64-bit i7 980 is probably badly inadequate. According to some studies and analyses you may well need 200, 300 or more fps in order to approach anything realistic. And notice I never discussed framerate locking.

And if 60 fps is the holy grail, then why do you need a machine that can reliably do better than that? (I seem to remember you bragging on your rig doing far better than that.) That's kind of, um, a total waste. Quod Erot Demonstrandum, which brings us full-circle to the point of this discussion.

So the question remains can your system maintain a consistent 60 fps with excellent image quality and with all the settings turned up in TS2010?
Go back and check our thread from May about this. Don't really care, it doesn't make a difference.

Oh, also, and we've been over this before: I don't run an LCD monitor either. Primarily because I detest the widescreen format. Secondarily, the colors on this monitor are excellent and I've tweaked them over the years to be just right for creation

Is it possible you're predicating all your ridiculous assumptions on yet another overpriced piece of hardware that has introduced even more problems and requirements into the mix?

That's where the big advantage comes in with the high end hardware that some of us run.
Overpriced hardware that does you no good. It is most entertaining to see people waste their money like this. You should play the lottery, at least you might win something.
 
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You never answered my question: What does it matter? You probably won't notice a difference, so the extra capacity is merely academic.
The question was answered, if the refresh rate of the monitor is 60Hz and you want the smoothest game play you possibly can get (which requires v-sync to be enabled) then anything lower than a consistent 60 fps is very noticable. Why do you think most game devlopers today try to optimise for 60 fps performance?






And if 60 fps is the holy grail, then why do you need a machine that can reliably do better than that?
Simple, it's called image quality.


What happens when v-sync is enabled and the frame rate can't match the refresh rate of the monitor, it's called stutter. Hence the reason why you want a frame rate the remains above 60 fps which with the super sampling AA cranked up at high resolution is'nt always easy. That's another example of where that high end hardware comes in.






Overpriced hardware that does you no good.
Yes, yes put the blinders back on and crawl back under that rock, lol, “someone brought nicer toy's to the sand box than I have” :'(.

By the way where are those screen shots?
 
The question was answered, if the refresh rate of the monitor is 60Hz and you want the smoothest game play you possibly can get (which requires v-sync to be enabled) then anything lower than a consistent 60 fps is very noticable. Why do you think most game devlopers today try to optimise for 60 fps performance?

Well, I guess you have special vision.
icon_rolleyes.gif
Why do many if not most game developers target a 30 fps framerate?

What happens when v-sync is enabled and the frame rate can't match the refresh rate of the monitor, it's called stutter. Hence the reason why you want a frame rate the remains above 60 fps which with the super sampling AA cranked up at high resolution is'nt always easy. That's another example of where that high end hardware comes in.
And stutter will happen ANY time the hardware won't keep up with an established frame rate, not just at 60. Which, by the way, I can get on my analog monitor.

Yes, yes put the blinders back on and crawl back under that rock, lol, “someone brought nicer toy's to the sand box than I have” :'(.
Awww, still have to compensate for...something...with an overpriced toy that has extra capacity you can't use? Get a sportscar, at least people will actually see it.

By the way where are those screen shots?
Been there, done that. Now, the onus is on you to prove 60 or 120 or 180 fps provides a better experience, since we've pretty well established the fact that anything over 60 is a total waste and perhaps even anything over 30 is at best of marginal value, and at worst of no practical one, we've demonstrated that you're wasting anywhere from a couple to 100 or more fps' worth of processing power in overpriced equipment that will do you no good.

So, now, will you finally admit that what this really is all about is you having bragging rights (and, or compensating for something)?

Honestly, I doubt anyone cares either way. My only dog in this fight is the entertainment value of seeing people overpay simply because their ego says they "gotta have the best" and seeing how worked up they get when that fact is pointed out to them.
 
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Why do many if not most game developers target a 30 fps framerate?
They do, since when? Why would they when LCD's run at a minimum 60Hz refresh rate?


And stutter will happen ANY time the hardware won't keep up with an established frame rate, not just at 60. Which, by the way, I can get on my analog monitor.
Nope it doesn't happen ANY time with every game, do you have any experience with any other game besides Trainz?



Awww, still have to compensate for...something...with an overpriced toy that has extra capacity you can't use? Get a sportscar, at least people outside of some forums will care about that.
Lol, prove that I'm not using it, that's right you can't because you have no experience with high end hardware or what it's capable of.


Again what is it that I'm compensating for? So are you saying that everyone who is into high end hardware is trying to compensate for something?


Wow that's a lot of people -




http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/index.php




http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/index.php




http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=303




http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=304




http://hardforum.com/




http://forums.anandtech.com/


http://www.abxzone.com/forums/f144/


http://www.abxzone.com/forums/f147/




http://www.abxzone.com/forums/f151/




I already drive a very nice car, but thanks for the advice anyway.






Been there, done that. Now, the onus is on you to prove 60 or 120 or 180 fps provides a better experience, sincewe've pretty well established the fact that anything over 60 is a total waste and perhaps even anything over 30 is at best of marginal value, and at worst of no practical one, we've demonstrated that you're wasting anywhere from a couple to 100 or more fps' worth of processing power in overpriced equipment that will do you no good.
When?


I've already proved it, I actually have the hardware to see the difference remember. Don't take my word for it though get into a real hardware forum and see if anyone with experience on the subject says anything different from what I have.



So, now, will you finally admit that what this really is all about is you having bragging rights (and, or compensating for something)?
Sorry I'm not in it for bragging rights or compensation for something else but if that helps you get over the fact that you just don't know any better because the hardware isn't in your budget then so be it. If not I suggest you seek help with your insecurity issues and inferiority complex, lol.


When you actually have some experience with the hardware being discussed and can carry on an intelligent conversation about the subject in a thread please join in, until then it's obviously just another show of ignorance.
 
Mike, I'm glad you came in to join the fun.


I'll be sure to PM those tips, lol.

Hahahahahahahaha, i have been divorced 18 years Dan and brought up five kids on my own.

Last thing i need is a bloody woman on my case. :hehe: ;)

It might not be much, but i know it works mate. :D :D

Take care dood.

Mike.
 
Hahahahahahahaha, i have been divorced 18 years Dan and brought up five kids on my own.

Last thing i need is a bloody woman on my case. :hehe: ;)

It might not be much, but i know it works mate. :D :D

Take care dood.

Mike.



Lol, talk about getting off topic.


With me Mike it's just the opposite, if you cut me off from women you might as well cut me off from oxygen.


You've got a PM over at Trainnoob.com
 
Lol, talk about getting off topic.


With me Mike it's just the opposite, if you cut me off from women you might as well cut me off from oxygen.


You've got a PM over at Trainnoob.com

I used to be like that Dan, but i learnt my lesson. :D

PM replied to mate, thank you.

Best regards,
Mike.
 
They do, since when? Why would they when LCD's run at a minimum 60Hz refresh rate?

Lots do, like Halo 3. Star Wars Battlefront does the same. And you'll notice many games and sims like MSFS have a "target" framerate. Again, the purpose is to avoid stutter.

Nope it doesn't happen ANY time with every game, do you have any experience with any other game besides Trainz?
Yes, it does/can. "Stutter" occurs when a fluid motion cannot be maintained (though I have yet to see a formal definition, this is how most people define it - essentially, as an interruption.) Framerate locking is done to avoid this.

I take it based on this that you don't even know why you sync your card to your monitor's V-Sync. Please learn concepts before parroting what you read on gamerz forums here.

Lol, prove that I'm not using it, that's right you can't because you have no experience with high end hardware or what it's capable of.
Prove the visual quality is different. Oh, wait, you can't, partly because it's subjective, and partly because there is no formal answer. But I guess research and studies are too much for ya, huh?

Again what is it that I'm compensating for? So are you saying that everyone who is into high end hardware is trying to compensate for something?
In your case, apparently. You have capacity you don't need, so you've wasted your money. Even worse, you, by your own admission, frequently upgrade, so there's no point in you getting capacity you don't need as far as Trainz (and, probably, most current flight sims, X-Plane being a possible exception) are concerned.

Ironically, the one valid reason for overbuying hardware is one you have repeatedly scoffed at: Futureproofing. You might have had some credibility if you offered that as a reason rather than scoffed at it.

I've already proved it, I actually have the hardware to see the difference remember. Don't take my word for it though get into a real hardware forum and see if anyone with experience on the subject says anything different from what I have.
Seen other people's, no point. See, I did something you clearly don't, and which we've discussed time and again. I did research rather than just buying the most expensive crap I could from Newegg. I took a look a the games I play, did some research on what hardware was necessary for them to work well, and purchased appropriately. I didn't buy a quad-core, for example, because nothing I play would benefit from it, despite the fact I could have bought one for not much more than my current rig. (I have some video software that could theoretically benefit, but because of my usage methods and patterns, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.) Or, I could buy a fancier video card for as little as $50, but I don't need to since I won't gain anything noticeable, so why spend the money for something I don't need.

If I played Crysis or Need for Speed, then, I might consider new hardware to run it appropriately, and only if and what was necessary - no buying $1000 CPUs and $500 GPUs, sorry. So far X-Plane is the only thing that comes close, and I'll buy it only when I am ready to deal with HASP.

Sorry I'm not in it for bragging rights or compensation for something else but if that helps you get over the fact that you just don't know any better because the hardware isn't in your budget then so be it. If not I suggest you seek help with your insecurity issues and inferiority complex, lol.
Awww, but you do brag, often, so you are obviously compensating. Well, when you actually do research rather than just buy the most expensive thing you can afford, then we'll talk. Until then, I'm gonna sit here laughing my tookas off knowing how much money you waste.

ETA: The hypocrisy of your last statement above is not lost on me. Were I a geek who has nothing better to do than brag in fanboi forums, I'd have a field day with this. :D
 
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