A New Dimension in Model Railroads

[hminky]

Too bad Trainz doesn't work for reproducing model railroads:

Real world grid spacing and assets don't translate to a smaller scale.

You can't use plans from model railroading the game is too coarse, all that can be done is make up elaborate one board Trainz routes with faux walls and floors and call it model railroading.

Harold

 

[itareus]

...You can't use plans from model railroading, just make up elaborate one board Trainz routes with faux walls and floors and call it model railroading...

Why not ? TMR is not an attack on or threat to real life railway modelling if that's what you like to do - I have G scale in the garden and I'm working on a 00 indoor railway but I still enjoy making small routes in Trainz. A bonus is that Trainz costs very little compared with a G scale loco and stock which could easily set you back £1000 in the UK !

Chris M

 

[hminky]

Why not ? TMR is not an attack on or threat to real life railway modelling if that's what you like to do - I have G scale in the garden and I'm working on a 00 indoor railway but I still enjoy making small routes in Trainz. A bonus is that Trainz costs very little compared with a G scale loco and stock which could easily set you back £1000 in the UK !

Chris M

Edited my statement:

You can't use plans from model railroading the game is too coarse, all that can be done is make up elaborate one board Trainz routes with faux walls and floors and call it model railroading.

Remember the one board routes:

They all worked well.

Geez
Harold

 

[Vern]

It is widely acknowledged that many of the plans developed by the late Cyril Freezer for Peco in the UK could never actually have been built in the defined space using the proprietary track geometry. I'm sure some of the famous Kalmbach plans are/were the same, the area needs to be eased to actually accommodate the trackage.

That said it seems one of the emergent flaws of TMR (apart from the cost) is that essentially it's just the same old Trainz code with a few supplied model railways. Nothing has been changed or optimised to meet the specific challenges of building a small space route - specifically defined radius and parallel curves, complex junctions inside tunnels sending trains to fiddle yards or return loops or multi level decking linked by helices.

 

[Shortline2]

I agree with Vern above here on post 144.

I was first very excited about the new branch to Trainz (so to speak) but then I learned it seams to be same base code of the game and the difference is in the supplied content, and not having the program code following the need of the setup. At least that is my understanding and I then I took the sitting on the fence approach instead...

With this Model Railroad branch I had hoped for smaller grid as the space is meant to be smaller, a smaller dig hole, a way to sort of have our 1:1 models but the game scaled the environment to the scale we wanted/needed and the walls, doors, windows, stairways, chairs, tables, bookshelf's, humans running the model railroad scaled with that.

I would have imagined such things would be possible with this new Trainz code behind T:ANE, because if it could work in a model scale train module, it can be later used in the "real life" train module when the computer is powerful enough... :wave:

At least the grid and dig hole part.

Just me dreaming I guess.

Linda

 

[RPearson]

... I'm sure some of the famous Kalmbach plans are/were the same, the area needs to be eased to actually accommodate the trackage.

That said it seems one of the emergent flaws of TMR (apart from the cost) is that essentially it's just the same old Trainz code with a few supplied model railways. Nothing has been changed or optimised to meet the specific challenges of building a small space route - specifically defined radius and parallel curves, complex junctions inside tunnels sending trains to fiddle yards or return loops or multi level decking linked by helices.

Vern I was hoping they might have a few specialized tools to make it easier. I'm not sure I agree with Harold though. I don't view a 4x8 layout for O or S scale as a model railroad you can operate. In HO it's something to play with, in N it's starting to have some possibilities. I went from HO to N to get some running room in my confined space. Fortunately for me I moved and lost my 6x10 basement empire before I tried to expand and sink my life savings in it.

I've got many books by John Armstrong that detail what I call routes I'd want to build - if I were still doing it. These are not "fudge to fit" layouts. He engineered them. They're for those that spike their own rail or use flextrack and commerical switches but not fixed track pieces. Most filled a room or a basement or a garage and some larger than that. Many of the smaller ones were multilevel affairs.

I'm thinking of trying some ideas out in Tane SP2 along the lines of ModelerMJ's recently vaporized post on basemapz which I gather is going to be part of or included with TMR. I should be able to scan in the routes and use them on basemap tiles and also as background images to trace over in CadRail, export the vector data and create .trk and .gnd files for Surveyor to read. Anyhow it's a plan.

@Linda good to see you on the forums.

Bob Pearson

 

[hminky]

Vern I was hoping they might have a few specialized tools to make it easier. I'm not sure I agree with Harold though. I don't view a 4x8 layout for O or S scale as a model railroad you can operate. In HO it's something to play with, in N it's starting to have some possibilities.

Had prototypical operations on several 4x8 layouts in HO, S and On30.

My last layout in On30:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/4x8/operation/lilo/

The BaseMapz works great, just lower it below the grid.

Here the image is above the grid:

Harold

 

[itareus]

...With this Model Railroad branch I had hoped for smaller grid as the space is meant to be smaller, a smaller dig hole, a way to sort of have our 1:1 models but the game scaled the environment to the scale we wanted/needed and the walls, doors, windows, stairways, chairs, tables, bookshelf's, humans running the model railroad scaled with that......Just me dreaming I guess...

Well not really dreaming Linda, most of the things you have on your wish list are already on the DLS, Check out assets by 'Ray_Whiley' and 'Itareus' for a start, there are more around but I can't remember the authors or where they are.

Scaling has always been something that seems to baffle people in the simulation world and I can understand why, BUT it does not really matter so long as all the assets used seem right in the finished route.

As for making the grid smaller, I agree that this is something that has been lacking for a while, the move from 10 to 5 was a good step but (and I'm guessing) to go much smaller may have some significant performance overheads. Perhaps one of these days we will get a smaller grid definition and maybe a smaller baseboard to match it for older PCs...

Chris M

 

[itareus]

I... it seems one of the emergent flaws of TMR (apart from the cost) is that essentially it's just the same old Trainz code with a few supplied model railways. Nothing has been changed or optimised to meet the specific challenges of building a small space route - specifically defined radius and parallel curves, complex junctions inside tunnels sending trains to fiddle yards or return loops or multi level decking linked by helices...

Have you actually bought a copy Vern ? Did you know that existing TANE users will be able to get just the routes ? Have you any concept of just how much effort goes into just one of the model routes ?

For parallel curves - these have been available for years, some of my early assets were to do just that.

For complex junctions sending trains to fiddle yards see the 'Appen' route, (if you have it... ?)

Return loops are simple and so is multi decking, you just need to know how to use the tools available already.

Next question please .

Chris M

 

[Vern]

I haven't bought TMR nor do I intend to unless the price drops to a level that suits my pocket. Other than the supplied layouts, which I'm certain Tony has said will be available as DLC, there's nothing the "new" version cannot do for "Model Trainz" that you cannot do in existing Trainz, really. In fact I already built a model style route a couple of years ago - Hallgarth And Fiddler's Yard - on the DLS. So I have a fairly good idea of the work that goes into a model route, more than you might think - but then so it does into any route (or asset) creation project.

Multi-decking may be simple (though I couldn't get my head round it, if you want trains visible running underneath on the lower deck) but would it have hurt to adapt the software to make it easier? And as Harold has stated, there are virtually no instructions with TMR particularly for those new to our hobby. This product is, after all, presumably designed to bring in customers from the real model world who have no experience building in "V" scale, so a pdf manual is almost essential for them.

My point being people are going to see this and maybe think it is a customised and optimised version of Trainz specifically geared to small scale purpose but it's not. Just TANE core packaged with the chosen layouts (for which they want over £40).

 

[itareus]

Vern,

If you are judging the product just by the publicity then I don't blame you from having a dim view of it . If you want to see a little of what can be done (UK prototype) then try here: http://itareustrainz.weebly.com/

But I do think that this version will bring on board more people to Trainz than you might think, remember that the people who post on this forum on a regular basis (like you and me) are very much the minority and that Christmas is approaching, so at around (USD) $50 (about £40) for the full release it seems to me to be better value that a Hornby starter set for hard pushed parents. The more people that support Trainz the better that N3Vs finances will be and therefore more improvements to the (core) product can happen.

I did some multi decking assets a while back but I don't think I ever put them on the DLS, if you want I will have a look to see if I can find them and send you copies to play with. I've worked with computers for over 40 years and I know full well that NO change to computer software is easy and what's more it always takes longer and is more expensive than you think !

As for instructions, if you could read my old posts on these forums about documentation you would see that I fully agree with you about this BUT, once again, it's all a matter of time (=money) to get the product to market.

Cheers

Chris M

PS - has Swindon still got its 'magic roundabout' ?

 

[Shortline2]

Well not really dreaming Linda, most of the things you have on your wish list are already on the DLS, Check out assets by 'Ray_Whiley' and 'Itareus' for a start, there are more around but I can't remember the authors or where they are.

Scaling has always been something that seems to baffle people in the simulation world and I can understand why, BUT it does not really matter so long as all the assets used seem right in the finished route.

As for making the grid smaller, I agree that this is something that has been lacking for a while, the move from 10 to 5 was a good step but (and I'm guessing) to go much smaller may have some significant performance overheads. Perhaps one of these days we will get a smaller grid definition and maybe a smaller baseboard to match it for older PCs...

Chris M

Hi Chris M.,

I realize there is "upscaled" 3D models out there and I know I could make my own if I wanted, but I was thinking ahead in a way and know that as we as a modeller can make a model at any scale we want, then the computer program code behind Trainz should also be able to do the same thing I think, and then we would have "fixed real life" items that is using this scale thing - kinda like a controlled Speed Tree scale working - and we would have to only make a room wall one time and it will be useable in any scale we want.

Today we need to scale the wall texturing to appear different sizes for Z to S scale so to speak, making a ton of different versions of the same wall, where the computer really should do the job for us...

In a dream situation, the wall, floor, ceiling, table, chair, benchwork, door, windows, people is all a base thing of the software and we as user just supplies out own textures to be used if we want to change the standard look, kinda like the grid/baseboard today is a fixed part of the program, and the sun and sky is part of the program.

Making me have to ask those that have bought this per-release (I can't afford it due to NOK versus USD is killing my funding's for my Cripple Creek stuff already), how is the sun, sky, shadow parts taken care of in this branch of Trainz?

Will the walls cast a shadow on the layout like in T:ANE, will the sky interfere, stuff like that?

The scale part is really difficult to grasp sometimes, as for the H0 part which I am mostly familiar with, where scale is 1:87 that would make the wonderful small standard 10m grid 870 times larger in size then our so-called meter for H0 scale, making the 720 meter large baseboard into about 8,28 meter in size each direction for H0 scale.
If my math is right that is...
-> That is one large room - the living/main room of our cabin is around 9 x 4 meter, and that is half of our space, rest is kitchen, bedroom and a small bathroom part. I feel I am off somewhere with my math as the baseboard in Trainz do not feel that large to play around with.

Oh well, I started this writing with a clear idea what I wanted to say, ended up confused instead, guess it is passed my bedtime already...

I have not open Trainz for nearly a year, Forum is my only connection now a days, hence my thinking is mostly from memory and understanding of Trainz - but the old model railroad blood is still in my veins somewhere... :hehe:
They are manageable in sizes, while for instance my area of love is Huge in task and work...

@Bob P. - Thank You!

Linda

 

[itareus]

Linda,

Made a fair attempt at a reply and then trashed it with ( one of our better ) computer glitches. Past my bedtime here in the UK' will try to report in the morning and post photos.

Best wishes.

Chris M

 

[narrowgauge]

Linda

I'm not sure that I understand what you are thinking. Scale as we apply it in model railways is a compromise forced on us by space and cost constraints.

A rough example, assume a human adult standing looking at an HO layout, the adult sees the model world size in miniature, now assume that same adult is twice the height, the layout will be seen as smaller, effectively a smaller scale. Push this further and assume his child is lifted up to see the same layout, to that child the rolling stock will look almost garden railway size, in each case the apparent scale has changed.

Look at Trainz in the same way. content is made 'full size' whereas it is actually made to a scale that allows it to be seen on a normal monitor from a normal distance. We can zoom out in the scene and the effect is to change the apparent scale, if we stand back from the screen we see the same effect, our scene is diminished in size. We can also zoom in and see the world from the viewpoint of an adult railway worker, something I would have loved to do when I was working in N scale.

Model railways in Trainz rely on the same thing, by providing comparison objects made to a much larger scale, it forces us to see the layout as much smaller unless we go for a childlike view and zoom in closer.

Actually there is no reason why we can't change our Trainz scale, I made some content twice full size, it multiplies the apparent mass by a factor of 8, it made normal track look like 2ft gauge and strangely, driving had a completely different feel. it literally felt heavier. Our normal 720 metre board would be quarter the size.

If you want to aim for 'scale' modelling in Trainz perhaps we should make all our content 87 times smaller, I don't think that would go down very well with the oldies. Think of the screen size we would need to see our routes as normal Trainz size.

It is all in the mind! By the way, ignore the 'scale' setting in surveyor, it is provided to give a 1 to 'whatever' value for distance displayed by the ruler

Big hugs

Peter

 

[Vern]

One of the aspects I struggled with on my previous effort was scaling height of the baseboards in the vertical plane vs the fairly straightforward scaling down of the actual layout - for OO/HO I adapted a ratio of 1:100 because, a. It was easier for my old brain to work with and, b. It provided the easements needed on those tight track plans. However I still got confused with the maths both on the layout (what should a spot height of 15cm be in the real world) and what level should I drop the floor to in order to achieve a typical 1.5m off the ground baseboard height.

It's little things like this which would have rounded off the bundle and maybe made it worth the money, IMHO.

I can't afford it due to NOK versus USD is killing my funding's

Not just the UK with our "Brexit", then Linda!

One layout I would like to try and make (in TANE at this stage), just for a laugh, is the old Hornby Dublo Duke Street which appears at exhibitions from time to time. A homage to the classic 1960's tail-chaser, the type of layout that used to be seen in department and model stores all over the country before the hobby became more specialised.

http://www.uktrainsimlive.com/images/allypally2013/IMG_1714.jpg

I've never been able to track down an actual track plan though so if anyone knows of one, let me know and maybe in the New Year I'll take a crack at it.

 

[Shortline2]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry for being so confusing, I was talking it through with my husband last night before I attempted to describe the images in my head and project them to you all here through the written text on the screen in front of you all - and I guess going to bed direct would have been a better option.

I was trying to say that to make our normal 3D models from Trainz - which is made with 1:1 sized, at least for my case - appear to look like H0 models we would need to make the part that is suppose to be the "real world" parts appear to be 87 times bigger. Or if going for N models, 160 times bigger.

If we wanted to then use the regular Trainz models like we have used for ages to make a model train layout, all the models that have been created to appear like a wall, chair, steps/stair, window/doors, they would have to be of different sizes depending on what sort of model railroad scale we want to appear to have made.
And my thinking was that those fixtures could have been programmed to be part of the software code and the materials/textures then used to paint the surface of those fixtures would be scaled differently depending on which model railroad scale we said this layout was meant to be.

We can in our 3D model programs like gMax/Blender, 3dsmax and so on set up our material/textures to like like different sized planks, bricks and so on, using the same base tga file of planks, bricks and so on, hence my thinking was that the software code in this Trainz branch could have done the same thing for us so that the environment we use the trains, houses, trees, roads, rivers, creeks, stones, cliffs and so on 3D models created for Trainz over the years made to a 1:1 scale - can take the appearance of being different model railroad scales as the fixed part of a room is giving us a reference to a sort of fixed scale to compare the trains towards.

Hard to follow yet I suppose, I find it hard to describe so we are all in the same boat,I mean, train here. :hehe:

I think narrowgauge/Peter said something good with the viewpoint we start from, adult, children, high, low person, hos we then look at the world and its sizes around us give us all a sense of what size other things are again, and from that we build our understanding of the world.

I sometimes wished I could build models for Trainz in either 2 times or 5 times the size of a regular model, but I soon found out I could not do that my self, as while a house or structure, or even the track is easy, it was the trains and trees I would fail from, and a great looking model and no trains to use to explore that world, that was sort of boring in my head so I never wandered into that world.

Either way, no need to delve around this stuff anymore, I support the idea of branches to Trainz, and I still wish the day shall come where it will be of even better use to model small compact cramped scene in terms of scenery and so on.

I have small mining themes layouts I never finished off, converting some of them into a model railroad themed plan was something I did envision as a way to possible get some of them into a sharing state, but they all suffer from the big Trainz problem of today, the large grid and the big holes I need to punch through it for a small 18-inch or 2-foot railroad...


I love my mountain feel, the hanging on a side of a cliff, I once started a large model railroad in a part of a living room we had in the Netherlands, out towards the street, where the plan was to have floor to ceiling cliffs, mountain and a railroad creeping along there - would loved to have done that in Trainz and be either in the world of the train, or in the world of the persons working and later have fun with the model railroad.

Maybe one day Trainz give us that option. :wave:

Thanks for sticking with me through this text guys!

Hugs for all!

Linda

 

[JCitron]

Hi Linda. I'm glad you came by!

You explained this quite well and I agree we need something such as this which makes this totally different from T:ANE even though it uses the underlying game engine for lighting, and the underlying Trainz Surveyor and driver controls.

One of the disappointments I have is the model railroad baseboards need to built by hand just as we do now in T:ANE when we model a model railroad.

If there were premade components such as the baseboards, and I don't mean a route that can be cloned, this would be so much helpful. The baseboards, scaled to their proper model scale of 1:87, 1:160, etc., after given their dimensions, would contain the digholes already to create the floor, have fascia boards on them, and for those along walls, would have the wall panels integrated with them as well. With these components in place, the model railroad creator can then concentrate on building the railroad instead of creating the environment.

The way I look at the product, and I said this in the beginning, it's very much along the line of the old Classics series we had in the past. It represents a different path that people want to go in for Trainz (T:ANE), but not necessarily different than that of the full version.

 

[Vern]

Another key point which just came to me posting over at Trainz Dot Net, is that quite often layouts are anything but symmetrical squares or rectangles. Take a look at some of the Armstrong plans or indeed real layouts featured in Model Railroader. Quite often these will be trapezoid shaped or even have curved edges which parallel the flow of the landscape or the curves of the track. Now I stand ready to be corrected, but it appears to me in simply churning out TMR with little or no variation to the code to support that type of feature (essentially the "layout" is build on a square based raised section of the terrain tile) it will not be possible to construct this type of baseboard configuration at all.

 

[ModelerMJ]

My Basemapz utility takes care of the 'coarseness' issue by scaling model track plans up to 1:1 before creating the Trainz route. If the input values are defined correctly then you end up being able to trace the track plan as if it were in real-world dimensions, so there should be no difference between building a prototypical route and reconstructing a model railroad plan.

Regards,
-Mike

 

[hminky]

My Basemapz utility takes care of the 'coarseness' issue by scaling model track plans up to 1:1 before creating the Trainz route. If the input values are defined correctly then you end up being able to trace the track plan as if it were in real-world dimensions, so there should be no difference between building a prototypical route and reconstructing a model railroad plan.

The Basemapz works great:

The grid doesn't allow very good scenery development.

Harold