A bit sad

Methinks there is too much protesting going on here, it's a hobby and supposed to be enjoyable, there are different aspects to this hobby be it creating content, reskinning, scripting, creating engine specs, creating sound files, route building, session creating and not forgetting those who just like driving Trains and having / admiring the stuff made for them by others, or Beta testing stuff, someone who spends hours driving loco's who maybe has not got a clue or interest in actually making content can still make a good tester.
It is extremely unlikely that many are going to be experts in all forms of Trainz, so how about cutting some slack for those who may not have the necessary skills to create anything and ask if anyone is making a whatever, excluding of course those known pests who come armed with a shopping list ;o)

The supposed Gimepig you tell to get lost, maybe the person who knows how to sort out your PC problem or get Trainz working again, they may know how to complete that session you are having problems with, they may upload a first class route to the DLS or produce a useful third party add-on, you just don't know. Everyone in this community has a place, just it may not be Content Creation ;o)
First, some gimmepigs are just all-around pests. No need to elucidate too much; we all have seen them.

Being someone thats never accused anyone ever of being a "Gimmie-pig", I however very much agree with this sentiment....... I do agree some of the anti-Gimmie-piggie campaigns that seem to go on at times are a bit too close to witch hunts at times, but on the flip side, there should be an accepted standard that if you're going to request things, do it in a way that makes sense, isn't over the top or repetitious, doesn't necro dead threads (If the author hasn't been online in a year, asking when they're going to release it is pointless), and in general doesn't make a nuisance of oneself.....

The last thing I want to find when I open a thread about work being done, or prospective work to be done is this:

I have litterally seen things like this on the board....... And this before we get into any included Giant size Pics of either locomotives or even just Ill-thought memes...... So no, I'm sorry (Not really), I find it rude (removed). Particularly under certain circumstances (Such as there already being models of the requested items being available).

The attitude you are up against is "I've been through the pain and trouble of learning these applications, so you should go through it also." That something worthwhile must have a cost is so deeply ingrained in some people's attitudes that they simply cannot accept that a model they have slaved and sweated over should be given away for free.

This was well said. Alot of the issues present in our community on this whole topic and all related issues have more to do with the glimpses of our socio-cultural-beliefs then anything else. I would also expand this to, its not just from the creators.... Its from every person on this board, myself included, thats ever asked for anything and been turned down at every turn..... When you're genuinely trying to get something that you see as a missing "Void" in our Simulation fixed, and the seemingly entire community turns around and tells you "So what?", its easy to shoot other people down simply for asking. And there is no black or white answer here (Despite me using very black and white examples to demonstrate). It boils down to where in the grey area does any particular member of our community wish to fall (And most just fall where-ever without much objective thought about this topic as a whole)......

So, thats my $0.02.... Anyone care to track the Books and see how much we make before the thread dies? I gotta figure we're close to two bits by now....

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Personally I don't see a problem with suggesting a new product for a payware content creator. After all, it might be for an item that they hadn't considered producing, but which actually might make them some money.

And in any case, some of the responses to someone who is asking the simple question, "Is anyone planning on working on xxxx" have been pretty harsh. I don't see where a simply inquiry about a future action deserves that. And some content authors, Ben Dorsey for example, are quite willing to create custom content upon request. And that should be their choice. And the requestor shouldn't be give an pile of crap simply for asking.

And different people have different skill sets. I've done some decent reskins for my own use, but I'm also a miserable failure at Blender. To use a real life analogy, I learned and can speak reasonable German and some Spanish, but after three years of trying, even with my Chinese wife doing her best, I'm absolutely unable to learn either Mandarin or Cantonese.

So it's somewhat unreasonable to tell someone, "Teach yourself how to use x 3-D modeling program" if they have absolutely no aptitude for it.
Based on some of the reactions, I fear I failed to make clear what I was trying to say in my first post, so let me try that again:
(and yes, I am probably saying the same thing a few times)

I can understand some people have trouble learning a 3D tool. Hell, the only reason I learned the basics was because there was a 6 week gap between finishing 1 job and the start-date of the next.
If you can't manage a 3D tool, you can at least manage the way you post your content request.

I have seen a lot of (almost) commanding or demanding posts for content, not showing any respect to what some creators already have given. The classic "a little thanks goes a long way" still stands.
If someone bluntly asks for something / more, I totally understand why a bunch of content creators reply with "these are the tools, go learn". On the other hand, if someone did some of the research, shows to understand the amount of work that goes into it or offers to help in a way someone can (research, textures, money, their homework, paint their house, whatever), people will sooner get a "great idea / I will consider" reply.

If someone posts in a blunt demanding way, people are more likely to consider them gimmy-pigs and the reaction is "here are links to the tools, go learn".
If someone posts in a respectful motivating way, people are more likely to consider their suggestions an interesting idea.

Be nice, get nice.
Be blunt, get blunt.

So (again):
Learn how to create content.
Learn how much work it is and show this in your request for content.
Having read all the post here, I'm struck by what's not said about time ( as in time to make content or run the Sim). Wanting to make content, and starting many times on one project myself , I find the time to learn on making content taxing my on my time to actually run my layout. Which is my only way of making something worth showing or gratifying . Which is the one reason I have this simulator in the first place. Having asked in the past for content and experiencing being called a gimme pig, I stopped even posting for help. So I find your comment here on point, and I do understand the views of many of the gifted creator. But if you can't even ask, and haven't got the time to invest to learn. We who can't, are left out of the discussion .

What's now available as payware, has some of the same issues, as to ask for a specific paint job, or content. Only to be told build it yourself. I have read where other have asked, and are treated in the same fashion.

So those who can't because of time, are dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. Frustrated isn't a way to have fun

My 2$
I too have read these posts with many of them spot-on. The feelings I have is the community is no longer one to offer help, but instead is a show-offs forum where people expect pats on the back rather than sharing. There are a few of us remaining from the old community who have seen a great change around here in the dynamics. To be honest it's almost a feeling of people having a chip on their shoulder and an attitude when asked something, whether it's for technical support, or it's for an asset creation. It's as though everyone and everything is a bother. Do these people remember the days when they first asked for help? They seem to forget.

I agree that the gimmee pig, the ones that necro 3 year-old posts, and ones that nudge and haunt endlessly about the some train we'll never see, should be dealt with firmly but nicely. In other cases, people are innocently asking if something can be created of if it has been created so read the question before firing off a blanket answer. Perhaps those of us, who have the knowledge, can share this with poster rather than telling them to bugger off and make it themselves. Seriously!

Having said this, before the remark comes back at me, yes I have created models before and not all are those darn Sketchup things I uploaded. I've been modeling since 1995 when I first used 3ds4 R4 for DOS. I was taught the basics by one of the big teachers in the industry. Later on I moved up to 3dsMax and got to work on the technical side and proofing of her book on the subject. Much later I attempted to get my brains around Blender, which has the most overly complicated interface any program could have, and I have since given up. I no longer have the patience, nor the inkling to want to model. Sure my brother uses all kinds fancy modeling and graphics programs, every day for the at matter, and I have access to them as well. Nope, no interest. So, yes, I understand the work that goes into making something, but never bother to because I know I'll get my head chewed off for asking!

Trouble is and I think this is what the OP is getting at, Be nice doesn't always get nice and why does it always seem to take half a dozen or more echos of the same thing to chastise someone for daring to ask? The original poster often has had no time to reply before others jump on board saying the same thing.
Having asked in the past for content and experiencing being called a gimme pig, I stopped even posting for help. So I find your comment here on point, and I do understand the views of many of the gifted creator. But if you can't even ask, and haven't got the time to invest to learn. We who can't, are left out of the discussion .
So those who can't because of time, are dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. Frustrated isn't a way to have fun
My 2$

Absolutely, and it's not just finding the time that's a major hurdle for some of us, I've had Cancer, Radiotherapy and Chemotherapy knocked my body about so much that I didn't even know what day it was at times, Jim McDermott has had a stroke, I don't think some folks know what that means, and I don't see why I should have to explain to people WHY we are asking for others to do what we can't, it's none of your damned business why we ask, a polite consideration, or, refusal, is all that we ask for, to get a sneering response ''learn it yourself it only takes a few weeks'' makes my blood boil, some of us are a little embarrassed to have to ask in the first place, to be treated so harshly is not nice, THINK before responding, this is a hobby, I don't see why we should have to tell you anything personal to justify asking, I hope that is understood.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.
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Well, not to encourage flame wars in threads that include requests, but since this forum doesn't seem to have a direct "Naughty vs Nice way to Ask List", and this particular topic seems to be based on so many individual, seperate experiences, perhaps the thing to do is to just start mentioning when you think someones gone over the top. This whole topic is "Person A does something, Person B disagrees and says something, Person C disagrees with Person B but doesn't say anything"..... Maybe if more Person C's told Person B's in a firm but nice way, perhaps while addressing both Person B and Peron A (Particularly if Person A was over the top themselves), there would be a community wide change in attitude...... But this kind of strategy would take effort and conscientious involvement and thinking on the parts of any that did this, to address their responses to whatever situation they're responding in an effort to be fair and consistent..... And the entire trick with this will be to not go over the top yourself.....

I find it hilarious, that in the entire time I've been here, I've maybe chastised 3 people for asking things, each because their method or subject of asking seemed rediculous or ill-thought out, and the last time the response I got was not only more of the same, but an echo-chamber of 14 y.o. Memes even more over the top then what either me or the person I was addressing had originally used..... If you want to make a change, be the change you wish to see.... Or perhaps I should just bookmark "Know your Meme" and start typing in Forum Font Size 5 as well, and we can all Flame and get smacked by the Ban Hammer together......

Ok I'v seen this too. !

But what has happen too many times is the person asked, isn't the the you get grief from. But to many time say they agree with the sentiment made and ignore the person completely So I've asked? how do you ask? And been told do it yourself, to here how I did it. To do you know how long this takes to make . So I find the author comment right on, Sad
But what has happen too many times is the person asked, isn't the the you get grief from. But to many time say they agree with the sentiment made and ignore the person completely So I've asked? how do you ask? And been told do it yourself, to here how I did it. To do you know how long this takes to make . So I find the author comment right on, Sad

And apparently the people making comments at other people for asking for things think they're "sad" (Or why else would they be making the comments they are?)..... Why don't you tell them that in the thread you see them, when you see it, instead of making a broad ambiguous thread that most of the people you disagree with may never read anyway..... This whole topic seems to me to be about misunderstandings, miscommunication, and or the conveyance of unhappy feelings.....

So whats going to come out of this thread? The entire community is going to read this and the people you disagree with will agree with you that their behavior was "sad" and we're all going to come together and sing Kum'by'ya? Point being, perhaps if we tell the people we disagree with, in the instance that we disagree with them, perhaps we can have a discussion about why they're doing something you disagree with, and perhaps even make a big enough change in individuals beliefs, attitudes, or perceptions that the reason for starting a thread like this in the first place will cease to exist.... Thats the goal of this thread isn't it? To bring back a more pleasant and relaxed atmosphere to the community by easing "Ask Anxiety" Created by the "Anti-Gimmie-Pig Campaigns" some of our members are on?

Creating a model is not just the work in 3DSMax or Blender. Almost as much time is required to find construction details, plans etc and the more uncommon the prototype is, the more the work involved. I believe that if someone posts saying 'I have all the plans for a ZYX0-10-0 locomotive' they would be more likely to get someone to help. There is no skill needed to ferret out this type of information, just dogged persistence and time which quite rightly should be provided by the requester, not the creator.

I don't remember seeing any 'gimmie pig' post that offered this type of preparatory help to a prospective creator.

A real "gimme-pig" is one who asks for a complicated item for free now. Or one who asks for a no longer available item for free now.
First up, well done all for staying on point and friendly! :) (no sarcasm, I actually had this thought whilst reading the thread; a great way to start the week I think ;) ).

Recently, I've had a few users asking for my to create items, or release items, and so on. We also get this via the helpdesk, or directly, for Trainz from time to time. So far, I've found being polite to the person asking (irrespective of how they ask) has worked a lot better than calling anyone 'gimme pigs'. I've also asked a few people to just more on when they come across someone asking me to make content, leave it to me to reply to a question that was directed at me ;)

My suggestion to the community here (outside of ensuring you follow the COC of course) is to leave it to the creator to respond. Or in the case of a group, let one of the creators in the group respond. If you really must reply, be sure to be polite. There's really no reason to make personal attacks over someone requesting content.

If the 'request' is truly out of line (demanding content, or being disruptive in general), remain polite. And if you think it's breaking the rules, report the post. Making a personal attack is just going to make matters worse, and likely end up with multiple parties receiving infractions if it gets out of hand. Which really doesn't help anyone in the long run.

A few times I said I could help with basic help with Blender but apart from a few 'comments', there seems to be no interest.

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I think a great deal depends on how the question is asked.

The "I Wanna" type threads usually posted in block capitals, poorly articulated and without even a please or thank you deserve short shrift.

Something couched in more reasonable terms, "This would make an interesting loco/route" are more likely to garner attention from those in a position to fulfill the request. Doesn't always work of course as other than developers working to a commission (paid or otherwise) we tend to be a parochial lot and build what we want to build.

What's more irritating than the "gimmie pig" threads at least to me is the vapourware posts. Little Johny posts he is building XX railroad, which when you look on OSM is around 300 miles long, then in the next sentence (assuming punctuation) proclaims they want "someone to send them the DEM", or "How do I lay track?" At that point you know its pretty much a non-starter. The danger is that the more plausible statements of intent could stop someone who is in a position to build the route going ahead and doing it. Freely admit to being guilty of that myself* on occasion (Mount Lowe and most recently that Budapest narrow gauge come to mind) but generally these days other than a vague reference I keep my gob shut about what I'm working on, until it's at a point where it stands a chance of getting finished.

* If you want a laugh, check out my ultimate vapourware list at Trainsim.dev: http://www.trainsimdev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=481
So bad I have to laugh about it, BigVern is humbled - albeit only a few ever got mentioned publicly as being underway.
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I honestly wouldn't be too hard on yourself Vern, or anyone else thats legitimately posting decent screens of a route they're working on. I have one running atm, which I was reluctant to start for the same reasons you mention.

I recall a post by Mezzo about Trainzitalia's recent Donner Pass (A 3 year project as I recall?) that stated they had to just about physically restrain one of their creators to get it released because he was into "Fixing/updating" it (I think this was Penderlino, I could be wrong though, see their thread about it for details).

But, at the end of the day, there are 2 things to consider:
1:If someone else really wants to build something, they'll probably build it. Case in Point, as a community we have at least 6? Different Berkshire Locomotives available now of varying merits. Most of which were released at similar times to each other (with 2 notable release "Clumps"). All are decent models, but they're all still available, if only because most of the creators acknowledged that there were others made or in the making, and decided to finish them anyway...

2: By posting things, particularly routes, though this applies to Model Creation as well, we can get feed back and share information about a given project. This is important. 2nd Perspective is one of the best ways to learn in this hobby... THere is no "Lexicon of How to do Things in Trainz" to follow..... Most of what I know about this sim has been garnered here, whether through direct questioning of stuff people have done or said, or just lurking (The former tends to yield better results, but not always).


I agree and please don't be so hard on yourself. All of us are guilty of doing that when it comes to route building. If I had built and destroyed the number of virtual routes in real model railroads, I'd be bankrupt now. Like you I have more starts and restarts of routes that I think are cool, or would be nice. This is the great thing about this hobby, which many people take for granted. We can do this without wasting anything more than our time and a few megabytes of data that's sent off to bit heaven when we delete it.

What were we talking about?

Not to change the subject but...

I would love to see a Canadian Pacific AC4400CW, one of the most powerful, dependable and successful locomotives in North America created by the very talented artists at Jointed Rail or RRMods.

Would this do, Claude?
GE AC4400CW CP #9586,<kuid2:95761:206:1>
It's by Shane Shane Stewart, TrainzProRoutes.

Oh, and
One thing I will say, and it backs up what gd5150 said above, is that if a creator has just finished making something, they are most likely feeling quite exhausted after a battle with background research, 3D software, geometry, textures, LOD's, incomprehensible Wiki's and configs. Just take the time to appreciate - or at least focus comments on - what they have just done rather than jump straight into 'yeah that's fine, but what about doing this...' because it comes across as dismissive of the current effort and is demotivating.
Well said. We should all acknowledge each other more, but particularly when someone has done something incredible and is all out of breath, sweaty and justifiably proud...