Lesser of 2 evils...splines or a bunch of weeds?

Work is progressing on the L&A and presently I have the tracks lined with a grass spline running on each side of the tracks and I think it looks good. My question in order to make it look better I think I need a second spline of tall grass or weeds. And here is where my question comes in. Do I add more splines or go with an obscene number of grass/weed assets? Of course frame rates are limiting factor here. The idea is I want the track sides to look lush with vegetation.

Dave

There's a theory that splines cause performance problems, whether that's pure myth or actual fact I have no idea since I've never seen any actual scientific proof one way or the other. Using DMDrake's abandoned industry block scenery object on one test route, festooning the entire route with hundreds of them, I saw no framerate difference from the same route with the abandoned industry splines instead of blocks. If it IS a myth - and I strongly suspect it is - it was probably started by someone who saw lousy framerates, deleted a bunch of grass or bush splines, got better framerates and jumped to the conclusion that splines were bad for framerates. If he had looked at the actual mesh he probably would have discovered that the splines he deleted were made in sketchup with 600,000 polygons for a single bush.

So what I'm using for trackside foliage is splines;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?310266-Undergrowth-splines

On the DLS now;

undergrowth_6a,<kuid:522774:100597>
undergrowth_6b,<kuid:522774:100602>
undergrowth_6c,<kuid:522774:100603>
undergrowth_6d,<kuid:522774:100604>
undergrowth_6e,<kuid:522774:100615>
undergrowth_6f,<kuid:522774:100613>
undergrowth_6g,<kuid:522774:100686>
undergrowth_6h,<kuid:522774:100687>

You can test for yourself how they work;

American Flyer,<kuid:522774:100852>
American Flyer Template 1,<kuid:522774:100864>

Some screenshots here;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?311607-American-Flyer

It probably depends upon the size of the spline objects. Hundreds of thousands of little, tiny, teeny, weeny, little polygons starting and stopping repeatedly are probably worse than one huge clump of buildings repeated only a few hundred times if at the most.

To be honest though I have found a frame rate difference with the older grass objects too as well as grass splines, but not as much so with the newer stuff by McGuirrel - her M:Ultra Grass assets - i.e. Speed Grass objects. These newer grass objects render rather nicely, but the problem then is you need thousands of clumps to look right. I tried that with a route I was building, and found that I needed a lot more grass than I would have wanted to place, besides that becomes a drag too particularly if there's a slope because they hang out into space because they're group objects. The same, I suppose happens with other's group objects too, so you have to either place individual clumps or drag them into the dirt all over the place.

John

Good question.
I´m going with individual grass on my routes. And yeah, the ammount of them plus the trees I use sure get down on the framerate!
That said, I cannot say that I´m using up-to-date assets.
Worth it? You deceide.

If you check the Ashburton-Windrush route i uploaded back in August, you'll see I made extensive use of the jankvis payware trackside splines JVC#(Gr1) Trackside spline A,<kuid2:328583:20247:1>; JVC#(Gr1) Trackside spline B,<kuid2:328583:20255:1>; JVC#(Gr1) Trackside spline C,<kuid2:328583:20251:1>. I also used his freeware grass splines JVC~(Gr3) Grass A 62m,<kuid:328583:3937>; JVC~(Gr3) Grass B 62m,<kuid:328583:3935>; JVC~(Gr3) Grass C 62m,<kuid:328583:3934>; JVC~(Gr3) Grass D II 56m,<kuid:328583:3933>. I think it made a huge difference and I would strongly recommend them.

Paul

Many thanks to Thai10n for starting this thread, this is a question I would like answering too.

I read in the past on this forum, that splines in a route come in different lengths, and your computer uses extra cycles to work out the various lengths of splines, thus slowing frame rates, where-as a piece of grass is the same height and same dimensions as the last one, so it can re-draw the grass many times in one go, so the system does not have to work out height and length as much, thus creating better frame rates.

Now in the past, I have tried this out, and found out it was either a certain type of track, mainly high detailed track, or the type of fencing used, that was giving the highest buffer count, but I would like to know also, which is better grass splines or individual grass placed in bunches along the lineside.

I have been using assests from the ECML route, as I believe this is the longest route in Trainz, and the items used must be of a standard not to slow the frame rates down too much, especially when you look at the length and size of the ECML route.

Joe Airtime

ECML = ????

frogpipe said:

ECML = ????

Click to expand...

British route = East Coast Main Line.

London King's Cross to Edinburgh. There are portions of the route in TRS2010 and more of it in TS12. It's a really nice route to drive.

John

The obvious problem with using flora objects to line a route rather than splines is the shear number and time it would take. My route is only a few miles long, but I think I would have lost the will to live if I'd used objects rather than splines! The other benefit is that splines will height adjust to contours, eg. hillsides, whereas objects won't unless they're rollable. The idea of having to roll every grass clump on a hillside as well as place and height adjust it is just too much to contemplate!

Paul

Paulsw2 said:

The obvious problem with using flora objects to line a route rather than splines is the shear number and time it would take. My route is only a few miles long, but I think I would have lost the will to live if I'd used objects rather than splines! The other benefit is that splines will height adjust to contours, eg. hillsides, whereas objects won't unless they're rollable. The idea of having to roll every grass clump on a hillside as well as place and height adjust it is just too much to contemplate!

Paul

Click to expand...

Paul,

This is one of the things I was running into on my route. I like the real objects versus the splines, but adjusting each one was driving me totally off the wall!

John

Most of what I know about graphics processing and draw calls is probably obsolete (like me! ) but if it works the same way it did back in the days of DOS and dinosaurs, a 3000 polygon spline would work better than 30 100 polygon objects simply because it's one object to load and process rather than 30. Image files also create a performance hit, a block of buildings or a building spline with one large 2048x2048 image which maps different parts of the image to different parts of the mesh will do better than 10 different 128x128 TGA files, again because it's more files to load. I forget the exact number, but using multiple images rather than a single large image is something like the equivalent of an extra 500 polys per image file.

Quick update. So far along the main I have a telegraph spline, 2 JVC grass splines, and 2 JVC grass and shrubs splines and I'm still holding 25 FPS. I'm using a few of the tricks other members suggested to improve speed. I forgot to mention I also have an obscene amount of Speed Tress lining the right of way and mountains :hehe:. So for TS12 is hanging in there and my purpose build PC helped

Dave

Everything in life has to do with observation and learn from what you see. Many times we think we see and still so it the wrong way.
Splines I only use for track, roads and power lines!
I assume we all talk about TS12.
It should be known, well known to all of us that splines for any kind of vegetation is asking for trouble by ALL means.
We all talk about objects and LOD which makes objects (and splines eg track...) work perfectly the way TS12 can support it. So assuming we all use Object and not object groups (not grouped as an object that limits the usages to only flat terrain which the world NOT is).
Most objects I use have LOD and or will be subject to changes that way sooner or later therefore place in a certain pattern will do the job TS12 can support with no major loss of fps per baseboard.
For the last 2 years (and longer) I showed more than once in a while what can be done with TS12 and a picture tells a thousand words for the eye of the beholder.
Thai1on hope this helps I know we are worlds away and yet so close lol.
hope this helps

Roy

"It should be known, well known to all of us that splines for any kind of vegetation is asking for trouble by ALL means."

Sorry, my test results are the complete opposite, with bush/undergrowth and tree splines I get better performance.

@sniper297
I feel the undertone of your sorry,...... so I cannot help you and we cannot compare the apples and pears you seem to use to make it work.
Depending on what size, density,etc of route you create yourself anything is possible but I try to help advice using TS12 use objects with LOD.

Roy

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, everybody keeps saying splines are bad for framerates like it's a proven fact, but my experience shows that it's a myth.

I´d like to add in that I think what joosten meant is that there is no "the generic spline"...

I can only say from my experience with 10, that with the level of detail I am trying to bring in, the framerate is bad either way. But with objects it looks better!


Now that I´ve been working on something in 12 with a guy who knows how to set it up to look awesome, it might be a different thing.

Artistically, I think that individual objects are the winners for middle to close views.

Textures are, IMHO, the preferred option for foliage which is viewed at long distance.

Splines might be ok for some close up areas, e.g. large patches of overgrown grassy rail yards where you want the grasses to be seen “growing” through the tracks (which textures can’t do).

The big plus for me is that a nicely constructed group of individual foliage objects is totally original. Every part of the route can then look unique.

Conversely, a spline will generally always look the same. However, used sparingly in combination with individual foliage objects, splines can sometimes be made to look a bit more unique, but you can usually spot them.

I like Mezzo thinking on this, special effect places its good..But you have too learn to keep splines for the most part back from the tracks or you get some stutter..