"modern" steam discussion

So as not to thread jack another thread, I'm continuing the conversation here. To recap, the 5AT is a modern steam locomotive that's been designed from the ground up.

What many people may not know, however, is that the same person who designed the 5AT, also is responsible for this.

http://www.5at.co.uk/52-8055.html

Well, its been proven that it is possible to successfully build a steam locomotive from the railhead up, thanks to the Tornado.

But the question that has to be asked....what is the market? Is there a market for a steam locomotive in a diesel and electric world? Is this going to be aimed at tourist, shortline, or mainline railroads? how many orders will there be before the first locomotive leaves the shop?

When the world dieselized, all the steam maintenance faculties were destroyed. So new ones are required, meaning you need capital. On a tourist or a shortline, that may actually not be a problem since the distances are far shorter. But on a mainline, that becomes a problem. You can't load coal by dump trucks and cranes all the time (although the C&TS and the D&S have been doing it for many years)

Well,with the following factors mentioned already, it could very well mean the return of steam and the 'tornado' was one of the modern steam engines built new to resemble the peppercorn pacifics that did not survive to be preserverd, as for the 5AT, lets just wait and see where this goes from here!

I've spoken with some people involved in the 5AT project, and interestingly it's designed to use established service buildings in the UK. There are even a number of turntables floating around. Though you may notice that it's not an overly large locomotive, it could be turned on a simple branch line turntable.

It's not been confirmed to me, but suggested in some messages, that the locomotive can operate equally as well in reverse (unlike many tender locomotives) as it can forward. Control wise I'm told that it'll be something of a mix of mechanical (traditional) and electronic.

Its about time steam made a return to the rails because diesels are polluting the air with their diesel smoke, people talking about steam engines being dirty, less efficient and labour intensive and that was true then but now steam could turn the tables on the diesel but until then I guess we have to wait and see how it goes!

An interesting report from Switzerland:
http://www.dlm-ag.ch/en/news/109-volldampf-am-hauenstein

Regards

Swordfish

DLM is full of Geniuses. And Tell me you all HAVE heard of Wolsztyn, Poland. They Run MONEY Earning Steam Powered Trains all the Time, and you can Even drive some of their Locomotives.

http://polandpoland.com/wolsztyn_steam.html

Just a little info... :wave:

INDEED

Swordfish said:

An interesting report from Switzerland:
http://www.dlm-ag.ch/en/news/109-volldampf-am-hauenstein

Regards

Swordfish

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TAKE A GANDER AT THIS

The pilot project „Full Steam on the Hauenstein“ has fulfilled all expectations. The daily operation for two weeks with altogether 78 trips on this steeply graded, scenic branch line demonstrated convincingly, that attractive steam trains draw the crowd. Especially in off-peak times the standard electric trains are underused resulting in poor economics on this line. Residents and passengers estimated the very clean operation of the modernized 52 8055, no smoke, no soot, no cinders, no cinders, no sparks, only light traces of white steam escaped the chimney. Or as a resident once said: “Romance without dirt, that’s just wonderful”.

The idea of improving the economics of underused branch lines by adding attractive steam trains works out well. In future it is planned to replace some of the electric trains as it does not make sense to run an electric train with five passengers in addition to a steam train with 150 passengers. However, a new steam locomotive will be required to allow remote-controlled push-pull operation.

Right,since they did that for Germany and other parts of Europe with this engine,maybe someone in the states can construct a steam engine that can attract railfans and other people without producing much smoke,soot and dirt like the steam engines of the past did before it and if this was to happen,maybe people who described these iron horses will have no choice but to change their opinon and who knows maybe we could see several or one steam engines pulling freight and Passenger trains on the mainline again and we need environment friendly steam switchers in railyards not diesels because they are the ones polluting our air not steam engines,I mean it could take alot of time before we see modern american steam locomotives rule the rails once again, maybe a 2-8-0 consolidation could be made but with improvements!

If you look closely at the article, it states "Residents and passengers estimated" the overall cleanliness of the locomotive's operation. A mere guess based upon the locomotive's operating efficiency won't suffice for real testing.

I wouldn't mind seeing steam locomotives running in regular service in Germany, particularly on account of their quiteness... well, at least in the case of German steam locomotives. I've noticed that while German engines are very quiet, quieter than some modern electrics even, American steam locomotives are loud. I don't know what it is about them, but they're much louder than a steam locomotive ought to be.

At least speaking from personal experience, they're fairly easy to maintain too. Unless something inside the boiler is wrong (this is usually an absolute pain in the rear for anyone on a maintenance crew), steam locomotives have the advantage of most of their moving parts being on the outside and being reasonably easy to access, unless you're cursed with an inside cylinder engine.
Their disadvantages tend to lie within, among other things, their rather limited range compared to diesels and electrics and the investment costs required for the necessary facilities. Steam locomotives can't just be left out in the open like diesels and electrics, they need some place where they can be kept when they're not running; and when they are running they need equipment to keep their tenders from running dry. They also take a long time to 'start up'. The quickest a locomotive of that particular class can usually be made ready for service if it's cold is about two hours, unless you don't drop the fire and keep it up overnight. The only other disadvantage that immediately comes to mind is the fact that steam locomotives put out their maximum torque only at a certain speed, whereas diesels and electrics can put it out at all speeds. Although, one a steam locomotives gets moving, it puts out sheer gobs of torque.

There are advantages and disadvantages. Personally I'd like to see a modernized German class 41 (1-D-1 wheel arrangement) with roller bearings on the axles AND drive rods, partial streamlining, a tender that can be used for running backwards at high speeds and WVO firing with a boiler and firebox of the most modern, efficient design as well as drive rods and wheels of a lightweight material. How much better this woud be over a "conventional" class 41 I can't really say, I can say though that it would be noticeably better.

WileeCoyote

So what next wheel arrangement we could looking at if they decide to build another steam engine?

I suppose that of whatever locomotive they decide to convert next (assuming they even get that far). I don't see them building a locomotive from the ground up when it's cheaper to just convert one. They never actually 'built' that locomotive anyways. 52 8055 is a former East German class 52.80 that was extensively rebuilt to make it what it is today. A completely new locomotive for standard gauge branchline or mainline operations is something they've yet to achieve, but it's something I'd love to see them achieve. At least looking at the data presented on their website, steam locomotives appear even to be more environmentally friendly than their diesel-fired counterparts. I'd like to see some people in railroad administrations as well as governments take notice of that. If they all want to 'go green' so badly, we might've as well just point out one way of doing so to them.

WileeCoyote

well,Why don't we start by converting a few standard gauge american steam engines to burn cleaner fuel since some people want a 'friendly environment', I mean come on people want to complain about the smoke from steam engines that pull our trains but what else smokes? power plants of course and quite frankly I find it both exciting that steam could make a come back and Ridiculious that someone has the nerve to complain about steam trains polluting our air when it could be the diesels themselves, the diesel maybe powerful but it will never have the ability to draw more railfans into the past like the steam locomotive did!

DRRR 3ft Guage steamer

The Doe River railroad sure could use a steam locomotive, it would be awesome to see steam on the old ET&WNC again!

So what you are telling me is it is a regular steam engine but with improvements? if that is the case the US ought to think about doing this as well,steam can bring in more profit for the railroad than diesels can!

farthegn said:

The Doe River railroad sure could use a steam locomotive, it would be awesome to see steam on the old ET&WNC again!

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No doubt about that, it would be nice to see that again!

History

Up untill just now, only steam locomotives ran on the old ET&WNC. They have plans to bring #12 on the line for a weekend in 2017 for her 100th birthday.

Klinger said:

Is there a market for a steam locomotive in a diesel and electric world?

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There is are three inherent weaknesses in the steam locomotive which I expect will prevent it from being used on mainlines. The first is the non-productive energy used to convert hot water to steam; if one has a quantity of hot water, there is a significant quantity of energy required to heat a unit of water to the boiling point, and another significant quantity of energy rquired to convert the boiling water to steam. No work is obtained from either of these expenditures of energy. Secondly, is the payload required to carry the water; 15,000 gallons of water weighs about 240,000 pounds, which is about one carload less of revenue freight that can be carried by the locomotive. Third is the mechanical complexity of the driving mechanism. A six axle diesel electic has 12 bearings to worry about; a steam locomotive with the same number of axles also has 12 bearings for the axles, but then has more than another dozen in the drive gear.

And we haven't even discussed the increased maintenance required for the boiler....

ns

mjolnir said:

There is are three inherent weaknesses in the steam locomotive which I expect will prevent it from being used on mainlines. The first is the non-productive energy used to convert hot water to steam; if one has a quantity of hot water, there is a significant quantity of energy required to heat a unit of water to the boiling point, and another significant quantity of energy rquired to convert the boiling water to steam. No work is obtained from either of these expenditures of energy. Secondly, is the payload required to carry the water; 15,000 gallons of water weighs about 240,000 pounds, which is about one carload less of revenue freight that can be carried by the locomotive. Third is the mechanical complexity of the driving mechanism. A six axle diesel electic has 12 bearings to worry about; a steam locomotive with the same number of axles also has 12 bearings for the axles, but then has more than another dozen in the drive gear.

And we haven't even discussed the increased maintenance required for the boiler....

ns

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Who says they have to be conventional locomotives with valve gear? The N&W's steam turbine was successful. The only reason they didn't get more was because they were more expensive than the N&W could afford at that time.

UP5521 said:

So what you are telling me is it is a regular steam engine but with improvements? if that is the case the US ought to think about doing this as well,steam can bring in more profit for the railroad than diesels can!

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No reason a modern steamer could not operate on LPG is there?