TRS2010

Count me in...

:cool: I am amused by the seasonal changes featured in Speed Tree, but what about the track? Snow lays on track too you know...

And about that Massively Multi-player Online Roll Playing stuff? Forget it!

You have no idea of what your asking for...railroading is a skilled trade & I doubt many people will be willing to take orders to hold a siding if they think they could make it to the next in time...they will sit & wait & wait & wait, etc.

Using AI Drivers in this manner is out, because they may take the siding, then pass through the signals on the other end...

We would need a pro-active dispatching board interface like Train Dispatcher 3.5 or ACTS Monitor just to keep up with all the activity...
 
Lot's of responses and views here.

So far as MMO is concerned, maybe I'm a crusty old curmedgeon but it doesn't interest me in the slightest. I would much rather have a proper AI signalling and despatcher implemented in the core. There's also a host of other features (as already mentioned - tunnels) which require improvement before multiplayer is looked at.

All the talk about trees, native mode etc. is all very well but it's not just trees that a route builder relies on, but buildings, clutter and trackside equipment. A certain other train sim has already been disparagingly referred to as "tree and water simulator" due to the priority given to natural features rather than the simulation aspects.

Re TSx - is this still on the cards then, or has it been put to one side?

I take it that TS2010 won't have all the elements from TS2009 included so it will still be necessary for those who don't own that version to buy it first? How will the install procedure work - will TS2010 install "over" TS2009 or will you need to install TS2009 into TS2010?

Asegards pricing, could I suggest you look at bundling TS2010 with the "new" S&C for an attractive all in price, say around GBP£20.00, US$35.00?
 
Vern said:
I take it that TS2010 won't have all the elements from TS2009 included so it will still be necessary for those who don't own that version to buy it first? How will the install procedure work - will TS2010 install "over" TS2009 or will you need to install TS2009 into TS2010?
Click to expand...
I think Chris covered this in post 15.
 
Hi Vern :)

Vern said:
Re TSx - is this still on the cards then, or has it been put to one side?
Click to expand...

I can't really talk about anything beyond TS2010:EE at this point, as that's our focus. Long-term predictions regarding the Trainz product line have always been a bit haphazard as we tend to take user feedback into account during development.


I take it that TS2010 won't have all the elements from TS2009 included so it will still be necessary for those who don't own that version to buy it first?
Click to expand...

Wait for the formal announcement to be sure, but the rough plan is to include everything from TS2009 for compatibility reasons.


How will the install procedure work - will TS2010 install "over" TS2009 or will you need to install TS2009 into TS2010?
Click to expand...

TS2010 will install over TS2009.


Asegards pricing, could I suggest you look at bundling TS2010 with the "new" S&C..
Click to expand...

Pricing isn't my area, and I would assume it will largely be driven by development costs.


kind regards,

chris
 
So, as far as I can see, no improvements, no features on the core simulation functionality? For example, real Beziér splines with handles, superelevation, foundations for prototypical signalling instead of toy train logic?

Klaus
 
KlausM said:
So, as far as I can see, no improvements, no features on the core simulation functionality? For example,
Click to expand...

TS2010 contains lots and lots of small improvements, and a few notable large additions. In terms of your specific examples:


real Beziér splines with handles
Click to expand...

If I'm understanding you correctly, I doubt we'd ever want to do this. While it's true you'd get some degree of additional control, you also require the user to do a lot of smoothing work that is currently handled seamlessly by the game. What would be nice here is some procedural fixed track pieces to allow marking out exact curves without using an entire library of fixed templates.


superelevation
Click to expand...

Nope, not in this version. We added support for this on the rendering side in TS2009, but as yet we haven't come up with a simple way to control it in Surveyor. I'd expect that we'll get this fairly soon.


foundations for prototypical signalling instead of toy train logic?
Click to expand...

Trainz is fully capable of running a prototypical signaling system. The built-in system is not at all "toy train logic" but is somewhat generic since we sell world-wide. There's certainly nothing stopping a talented content creator from building a perfectly accurate system representing their local area. Trainz is very flexible in this area.

hth,

chris
 
WindWalkr said:
If I'm understanding you correctly, I doubt we'd ever want to do this. While it's true you'd get some degree of additional control, you also require the user to do a lot of smoothing work that is currently handled seamlessly by the game. What would be nice here is some procedural fixed track pieces to allow marking out exact curves without using an entire library of fixed templates.
Click to expand...
I did not ask to remove the current system. If you can remember in the trainzdev wiki, I proposed to make this in addition, optional. And I am not aware that your fixed tracks are capable of creating something like easement curves. Are they?


WindWalkr said:
Nope, not in this version. We added support for this on the rendering side in TS2009, but as yet we haven't come up with a simple way to control it in Surveyor. I'd expect that we'll get this fairly soon.
Click to expand...

i.e. in five years.

WindWalkr said:
Trainz is fully capable of running a prototypical signaling system. The built-in system is not at all "toy train logic" but is somewhat generic since we sell world-wide. There's certainly nothing stopping a talented content creator from building a perfectly accurate system representing their local area. Trainz is very flexible in this area.
Click to expand...

So you are telling that to me, who brought the first animated, programmable semaphore signals to Trainz, and who spent writing several thousands lines of GS code in an attempt to implement prototypical signalling, just to realize that it would become totally impractical to use with the support Trainz provides?

Sorry to say that, but your presumption and your ignorance about prototypical signalling are the reason for the obvious standstill in this area, and one of the reasons why I stay away from Trainz for years.

WindWalkr said:
hth,
Click to expand...
it doesn't.

Klaus
 
Last edited:
Come on, admit it, you just waited for me to buy 09 before you released 10, just to keep me behind the play yet again :p :p :hehe: :hehe:

Cheers David
 
KlausM said:
I did not ask to remove the current system. If you can remember in the trainzdev wiki, I proposed to make this in addition, optional.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. My points still stand as to why it's not a particularly useful addition. I agree that there are some benefits, but there are also drawbacks, and I don't see that the benefits are particularly compelling as compared to other possible approaches. I do agree that this is an area we need to improve.


And I am not aware that your fixed tracks are capable of creating something like easement curves. Are they?
Click to expand...

I can't think of any reason why not. If you can represent the curve as a series of points, the fixed track templates can be used to build it.



i.e. in five years.
Click to expand...

If you say so :)



So you are telling that to me, who brought the first animated, programmable semaphore signals to Trainz, and who spent writing several thousands lines of GS code in an attempt to implement prototypical signalling, just to realize that it would become totally impractical to use with the support Trainz provides?
Click to expand...

In a word: yes.


Sorry to say that, but your presumption and your ignorance about prototypical signalling are the reason for the obvious standstill in this area, and one of the reasons why I stay away from Trainz for years.
Click to expand...

And with an attitude like that, it's not surprising you've never figured out how flexible the scripted signals are.

kind regards,

chris
 
@ WindWalkr

Sorry Chris, but as you seem to be in the firing line on this thread, I must have my 2 pence worth....

Having just read my e-mailed TS2010 Newsletter this morning, I was stunned to see that your choice of new/upgraded routes include 4 from the same creator, and I have absolutely nothing personal against Chris Racer at all, I already have everyone of his/these layouts downloaded.....But, they're nearly all from the same area - Michigan. Surely, you could have had his Amtrak Pacific Surfliner route set in Los Angeles, that way, we can all utilise the new PALM trees that you're selling as an add-on, but we cannot use these types of trees in all of the Detroit routes, and also, we can utilise the locomotives and rolling stock that we've already downloaded from PAYWARE sites and the DLS, especially for Californian routes. It seems to me that Auran haven't thought about this, NOT a very good marketing ploy....
And regarding the rest of the layouts included, we have Port Ogden & Northern and Milwaukee Road, BOTH originally created in 2003, talk about recycling old maps...Couldn't Auran have found anything a bit newer to utilise as built-in routes, there's hundreds to choose from.....
And what about any Aussie maps, and the built-in German and French layouts, from TRS2006 onwards, are they still there, or have you abandoned them....The only new routes I can see on your advertisement for TS2010 are the British ECML ones, which is fine for all the UK Trainzers and those interested in Britain, what about everyone else, what can they look forward to ???

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.
 
ex-railwayman said:
@ WindWalkr

Sorry Chris, but as you seem to be in the firing line on this thread, I must have my 2 pence worth....

Having just read my e-mailed TS2010 Newsletter this morning, I was stunned to see that your choice of new/upgraded routes include 4 from the same creator, and I have absolutely nothing personal against Chris Racer at all, I already have everyone of his/these layouts downloaded.....But, they're nearly all from the same area - Michigan. Surely, you could have had his Amtrak Pacific Surfliner route set in Los Angeles, that way, we can all utilise the new PALM trees that you're selling as an add-on, but we cannot use these types of trees in all of the Detroit routes, and also, we can utilise the locomotives and rolling stock that we've already downloaded from PAYWARE sites and the DLS, especially for Californian routes. It seems to me that Auran haven't thought about this, NOT a very good marketing ploy....
And regarding the rest of the layouts included, we have Port Ogden & Northern and Milwaukee Road, BOTH originally created in 2003, talk about recycling old maps...Couldn't Auran have found anything a bit newer to utilise as built-in routes, there's hundreds to choose from.....
And what about any Aussie maps, and the built-in German and French layouts, from TRS2006 onwards, are they still there, or have you abandoned them....The only new routes I can see on your advertisement for TS2010 are the British ECML ones, which is fine for all the UK Trainzers and those interested in Britain, what about everyone else, what can they look forward to ???

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.
Click to expand...

I agree with you there, I'm sure there is alot of trainzers that are looking for the same thing you are and the same goes for myself but I am still not sure if the next one will have the compatability feature that 2009 does for older content which allows me to install steam engines from trs 2004,2006,UTC, trainz classics,if there is a compatibility feature that supports 09 content only, what is the point of throwing my money into a simulator like this one which I probably can't install all of the steam engines I want from the previous versions mentioned?
 
WindWalkr said:
I can't think of any reason why not. If you can represent the curve as a series of points, the fixed track templates can be used to build it.
Click to expand...

So obviously another point where you don't have a clue. Easement curves are highly situation specific. One can't create an asset for each one of them.

WindWalkr said:
And with an attitude like that, it's not surprising you've never figured out how flexible the scripted signals are.
Click to expand...
An empty claim without any proof. Where are all the signals? Show me some. Of course, there are some fantastic signals out there with many configuration options, junction dependencies and such, but from a prototypical interlocking perspective, they are toy train level. Look at the trainzdev "signaling" forum. It is practically abandoned. Nobody there who understands the brilliancy of your signaling subsystem? You should come back down to earth and do a reality check.

Klaus
 
Not sure if this had been asked before, but did anyone notice that the list of routes are all on the DLS? The have most of chrisracer's content too.... :eek:
 
Fair enough. My points still stand as to why it's not a particularly useful addition. I agree that there are some benefits, but there are also drawbacks, and I don't see that the benefits are particularly compelling as compared to other possible approaches. I do agree that this is an area we need to improve.
Click to expand...

The ability to define or at least have control over the radius of curves without using templates or trial and error is a highly desirable feature. As a route builder it is probably the single most improvement I would like to see in Trainz (alongside tunnel placement). Something along the lines of the system Railworks uses where you can extrude and move the end of the curve to a precise tangent. You can also set the sim to apply easements if desired.

So far from dismissing this feature Chris, implementation would be a positive step forward for route builders.
 
This thread seems to be heading way off topic. This seems to be a discussion more suitable for TS X than 2010:EE.
 
WindWalkr said:
Morning all :)

Again, a bulk reply:





Unfortunately I can't give specifics on included content at this time.

Are we talking about the whole Tree Library or just a token sampling.
I went to the Speed Tree site and they look great.

If you can possibly have the entire library, it would be a sealed deal for my purchase of TS 2010. They are just awesome!!!
Click to expand...
 
Surely, you could have had his Amtrak Pacific Surfliner route set in Los Angeles, that way, we can all utilise the new PALM trees that you're selling as an add-on, but we cannot use these types of trees in all of the Detroit routes
Click to expand...

I think you're missing the point of TS2010 here - the new routes will all be using SpeedTree. If you want to use the palm trees on some DLS content, you can do that with TS2009.

You're certainly right that several of the routes have appeared at some point previously on the DLS. We don't believe that this detracts from their value, and we're not simply downloading the existing versions from the DLS and plonking them into a box :)

I would have to agree that not every route will appeal to every user - people always have their favorites (usually their local area.)


And regarding the rest of the layouts included, we have Port Ogden & Northern and Milwaukee Road, BOTH originally created in 2003, talk about recycling old maps...Couldn't Auran have found anything a bit newer to utilise as built-in routes, there's hundreds to choose from.....
Click to expand...

You're assuming that we trawled the DLS looking for existing routes; we didn't. We put a call out to content creators who were willing to work with us, and TS2010 is the result of that partnership.


And what about any Aussie maps, and the built-in German and French layouts, from TRS2006 onwards, are they still there, or have you abandoned them....
Click to expand...

I'd expect that they'll all still be there.



The ability to define or at least have control over the radius of curves without using templates or trial and error is a highly desirable feature.
Click to expand...

Absolutely agreed! That's what I just said above - we need better tools for this stuff. I just don't think that Klaus' suggestion is the way to go about it.


So obviously another point where you don't have a clue. Easement curves are highly situation specific. One can't create an asset for each one of them.
Click to expand...

You asked if it was possible; I said yes because it is possible. I also said "What would be nice here is some procedural fixed track pieces to allow marking out exact curves without using an entire library of fixed templates." which you seem to have overlooked.


An empty claim without any proof.
Click to expand...

Well, let's see. An unsubstantiated claim from a user versus an unsubstantiated claim from the developer of the software. You're right, I'm not offering any proof, but neither are you. Neither of us has anything which we can offer as "proof", so people will just have to decide based on who knows more about the capabilities of the product. If you feel like implementing such a feature, feel free to contact us on trainzdev@auran.com; we'd be glad to help get you started. I've already stated why Auran has not focused on implementing this ourselves.

(And yes, we've reviewed what it would take to implement such a system for a particular location in the world; it's certainly not a trivial project, but it's completely feasible and completely within the scope of a third-party developer.)


amigacooke said:
This thread seems to be heading way off topic. This seems to be a discussion more suitable for TS X than 2010:EE.
Click to expand...

True that. :)


Are we talking about the whole Tree Library or just a token sampling.
I went to the Speed Tree site and they look great.

If you can possibly have the entire library, it would be a sealed deal for my purchase of TS 2010. They are just awesome!!!
Click to expand...

Aren't they just! We will be shipping with quite a reasonable number of trees. I'm sorry but I can't give specifics on content at the current time. I would expect that most users will be happy with the number :)


chris
 
WindWalkr said:
Well, let's see. An unsubstantiated claim from a user versus an unsubstantiated claim from the developer of the software. You're right, I'm not offering any proof, but neither are you. Neither of us has anything which we can offer as "proof", so people will just have to decide based on who knows more about the capabilities of the product. If you feel like implementing such a feature, feel free to contact us on trainzdev@auran.com; we'd be glad to help get you started. I've already stated why Auran has not focused on implementing this ourselves.

(And yes, we've reviewed what it would take to implement such a system for a particular location in the world; it's certainly not a trivial project, but it's completely feasible and completely within the scope of a third-party developer.)
Click to expand...

So you are offering me to get access to the Trainz source code and to make changes? Guess not.

I have made some substantiated suggestions in the trainzdev wiki and forum for some basic and generic foundations that would support the development of interlocking systems, and the only thing you did was to wipe them away. So your invitation is not honest.

But I stop arguing for now. It is obviously fruitless. Maybe I stop by on the next release if Auran then still exists and if there is still no alternative. However, Railworks seems to have financially stabilized at least (while it still sucks), Zusi3 appears to be released in the foreseeable future, and there are some rumors around the previous development crew of MSTS2...

Klaus
 
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