Who is first?

[srude]

Hello;

There was a time, long ago, when companies created products, which they sold, then used the profits to re-invest in the business, which, in-turn, created new products and the process repeated itself.

The current model is that companies sell stock to get money for business investment and are, thereafter, beholden to the stock holders, the dividends reducing the capital which can be used to plow back into the business. That is debt, and we all know what debt has done to the world economy.

Investors run businesses and the businesses go to the extremes to show a profit, even at the cost of reducing staff. The effect produces shoddy products and encourages dubious schemes to sell something, regardless of whether or not the product is really ready for market.

And, in particular, software products are the worst. You buy something based on what the box presents and take it home. If it turns out to be rubbish, you have no recourse. Most merchants will not take back a software package that has been opened.

To some, the money amount spent on something doesn't matter; to others, it can be a serious loss. No one likes feeling like dupe.

Modern technology has given us the internet which is a collection of various URLs, some up to date, some, ancient. This, along with the various vintages of personal computers and maintanance practices at both ends, has given rise to unpredictable purchasing outcomes. Look at the headaches some 2010 buyers have experienced.

Some of us are content with the world and the way it is and some of us want to see improvements. When it comes to business, remember, the quality of a product is dictated by how much a company pays its investors and how much that leaves to improve the product you're buying.

When it comes to Trainz, how much of what is written on this forum, does the managment at Auran take to heart.

In fact, who comes first? The customer or the stockholder?

I have 2009 but it sits on the shelf. I run 2006.

Just a thought . . .

srude

 

[tankbob]

hiya all

I do think that auran do take into account what is said here just last week they isued vouchers for 50% off an add on pack for 09.we are customers and
without us auran would not prosper but without auran where would we be.
The company are not perfect but show me a software company that is.

cheers bob

 

[johnwhelan]

There are various business models, one is open source there are a couple of open source Train SIMS but to be honest they are still a blip on the radar.

Second is we build everything and sell it to you. Doesn't seem to work in Train SIMS, too expensive.

Third is we build the game engine then let third parties provide the content as Payware. This one isn't too bad but is limited.

The fourth is we build the game engine and encourage others to provide content and lots of other things we haven't got round to doing, with the forums, and DLS. We also allow third party payware which essentially is what Auran have done.

The relationship is not the traditional Business / customer one but it is symbiotic. Auran can't survive without the content creators but we in turn get a lot of support from Auran.

If the product is successful in the market place then the stock holders get a return. If its shoddy then the product isn't successful in the market place and the investors get little return. The additional production cost of a digital download is not that much. Creating the image in the first place costs the money and that's why you need the upfront investment.

Cheerio John

 

[Smileyman]

According to Auran, up to TRS2006 (I think it was), Trainz has never made a profit, and that they were going to change the way they do things.

I never believed them when they said this, even though they said it quite regularly, because I don't believe it would have been possible to get investors for future versions of Trainz based on the profitability of previous versions.
The investors are, after all, only in it to make money from their investments.

There definitely has been a change since then, which Auran have said they needed to make.

So what's changed?

Well, the investors still want to see a return on their investments, so it's not that.
The community still provide most of the content for Trainz, so it's not that either.

The only change that I can see throughout the whole of the Trainz lifespan has been Auran's attitude towards the community.
They've gone from being a very pro-active member of the community to a rare voice on the forums, disassociating themselves from their customers almost completely.

How this is seen as a move towards bigger profits eludes me, but it does answer one of your questions.
Auran does not take a lot that is said on these forums to heart, or indeed into account, although they will say they do if it is brought into question.

I'm not sure who their shareholders or investors are, but after the Fury fallout, you'd think they'd do everything possible to build up Trainz, both their side of the fence and ours.

They don't.

?

Smiley.

 

[leeferr]

According to Auran, up to TRS2006 (I think it was), Trainz has never made a profit, .......

That old ploy sounds familiar. I worked as an Architect for over 30 years and I don't believe that I ever met a contractor that ever admitted to making a profit on a job.

Mike

 

[WindWalkr]

According to Auran, up to TRS2006 (I think it was), Trainz has never made a profit, and that they were going to change the way they do things.

I never believed them when they said this, even though they said it quite regularly, because I don't believe it would have been possible to get investors for future versions of Trainz based on the profitability of previous versions.
The investors are, after all, only in it to make money from their investments.

For any of the recent versions, we cover costs. This means that there are no new 'investors' in the normal sense, and you're right- nobody would be interested in investing in a project that only covers costs. This also means that we have limited options for improving the product, since we have no investment capital to burn on arbitrary improvements. Every change we make must directly benefit the sales of the immediate-next product.

With that in mind, I think we're actually doing a pretty good job of setting ourselves up for the future. A lot of improvements have been made to the core game over the last two versions, including to our content-creation process. Many of these changes have yet to pay off in a big way; when they do we'll be almost "getting something for free".

my 2c,

chris

 

[johnwhelan]

For any of the recent versions, we cover costs. This means that there are no new 'investors' in the normal sense, and you're right- nobody would be interested in investing in a project that only covers costs. This also means that we have limited options for improving the product, since we have no investment capital to burn on arbitrary improvements. Every change we make must directly benefit the sales of the immediate-next product.

With that in mind, I think we're actually doing a pretty good job of setting ourselves up for the future. A lot of improvements have been made to the core game over the last two versions, including to our content-creation process. Many of these changes have yet to pay off in a big way; when they do we'll be almost "getting something for free".

my 2c,

chris

One option might be to simply sell the Auran bit of Trainz to the community.

Cheerio John

 

[Sampug394]

That old ploy sounds familiar. I worked as an Architect for over 30 years and I don't believe that I ever met a contractor that ever admitted to making a profit on a job.

Mike

There's no better way than hearing it from somebody who knows how its done.



(No I'm not an architect.)

 

[WillPac]

I just my first "cannon download, as you have reached your 100MB limit" message, after downloading a whopping 2MB of dependencies, my first download in more than a week.

I am just glad that Auran doesn't make anything "important", like x-ray machines or airplane radar systems. I think the Trainz program itself is great, and creating a program to run on most PCs, which have about about 45,000 possible different configurations, is a challenge that bigger companies than Auran haven't figured out yet either!

However, what makes Trainz so popular is clearly the third-party content, and Auran's necessary add-ons, Download Station and Content Manager Plus (I shudder to think what the "Plus" might mean!), leave most users feeling more than a little derailed. Faulty content, dependencies CMP say are on DLS but aren't, deps that CMP say are unknown but ARE on DLS, creeping download speeds, disconnection problems, etc. have left a lot of users wondering if Auran is a two-man operation run out of someone's garage.

 

[Scitimar]

One option might be to simply sell the Auran bit of Trainz to the community.

Cheerio John

don't see that happening , since seems most "community" members can't afford to buy a half way decent pc to play the game , and certainly can't afford to spend a bit of pocket change on upgrading to a newer version ... chances of any one member or group there of having the cash to buy code ( if it where ever to be sold ) are next to none .

I need more bubbly



ROFL

 

[Smileyman]

For any of the recent versions, we cover costs. This means that there are no new 'investors' in the normal sense, and you're right- nobody would be interested in investing in a project that only covers costs. This also means that we have limited options for improving the product, since we have no investment capital to burn on arbitrary improvements. Every change we make must directly benefit the sales of the immediate-next product.

With that in mind, I think we're actually doing a pretty good job of setting ourselves up for the future.

Chris, if Auran are keeping Trainz going with no new investment, and only being able to spend what they make on further Trainz versions, then I agree, you guys are indeed doing a good job.
A great job even.
TS2010 is the first version of Trainz I've wanted to use for 5 years.

But there's one part of my post that touches on the original topic of this thread.

The only change that I can see throughout the whole of the Trainz lifespan has been Auran's attitude towards the community.
They've gone from being a very pro-active member of the community to a rare voice on the forums, disassociating themselves from their customers almost completely.

If Auran are funding Trainz the way you say, then well done.
I know that takes a lot of aggressive management to keep it in line.
But that just makes it harder to understand how Auran has lost it's place in the community.

If I worked at Auran in any capacity, I'd want to post at least once a day, even if it was just to keep a presence on here.
If I ran Auran, I'd want to do the same, and I'd make sure that all relevant staff were encouraged to do the same.

The amount of times in recent years I've seen misinformation grow into discontent on these forums is poor community administration, and again, it answers the original posters question quite nicely.

You've been around the forums long enough to see the difference in Auran's participation these days, even if you're not allowed to say as much.

Maybe we just went to different business schools, but for me, if it's something that doesn't cost more to do, and it can have a positive impact, then you simply do it.

Smiley.

 

[WindWalkr]

The amount of times in recent years I've seen misinformation grow into discontent on these forums is poor community administration, and again, it answers the original posters question quite nicely.

You mean, like the noise that's going on at the moment? I think that sometimes people want to have their say, and the forums serve that purpose. There's nothing that anyone from Auran could say that would make the posters feel better, and many things that we could say that would likely be over-analyzed by people with one prejudice or another. Much of the time, it's better for us to present the information accurately and then stand back until the debate is over.

You've been around the forums long enough to see the difference in Auran's participation these days, even if you're not allowed to say as much.

I'm not sure that there are any real limits on what I'm "allowed" to say. Sure, we don't have a John Banks on the payroll any more. Is it a loss? Yeah, I guess so. Is it a big loss? Probably not. It's a little unfair to compare the 2002 forums to the 2010 forums- Trainz may still be the best product on the market ( ) but there is a certain upbeat attitude that can only exist when there is no preconception, such as prior to the product launch. Once a product has been released for a few years, each new product is judged relative to the previous product, rather than as a complete product in its own right. I think the forum is very sensitive to this change.

Another opinion I hear from time to time is that we should have more "future of trainz" type posts similar to those previously made by Greg Lane or Tony Hilliam. I'd have to say that I'm very relieved that we're keeping that kind of stuff fairly minimal. While people love to have the company put forward new ideas to drool over, my opinion is that "overpromise and underdeliver" is a really bad strategy in the long term.

chris

 

[Smileyman]

Another opinion I hear from time to time is that we should have more "future of trainz" type posts similar to those previously made by Greg Lane or Tony Hilliam. I'd have to say that I'm very relieved that we're keeping that kind of stuff fairly minimal.

That's something we definitely agree on!

After 2 major "Future of Trainz" posts, which haven't really led to anything (i.e. the proposed product lines never happened in the end), then I'm glad we don't see them any more.

The "Jigsaw" puzzle from way back was great fun, and it really brought the forums together, but the proposed split of Trainz into 2 directions never happened.

But just because we'd all rather do without a CEO banging on about how they're going to rule the world , doesn't mean we wouldn't like to see them talking about Trainz now and again.

Not all silence is golden.

Here's a question for you.
How many of the people that work on Trainz actually use Trainz regularly as a hobby?
Just curious.

Smiley.

 

[meridious]

Much of the time, it's better for us to present the information accurately and then stand back until the debate is over.

In the last year, you are the only one that actually works for Auran that comes here on a regular basis. You give us info and sometimes your knowledge of the inner workings. Many times we disagree with what you tell us but there are those of us who do appreciate you taking the time to do it. I think this is where Smiley is coming from.

 

[wholbr]

Hi There Everybody
Smiley makes some very good points regarding the interaction of a company with its customers. It has been said often enough on these forums in the last couple of days that companies have to make a profit to survive (although if you believe what you read many contributors to these forums seem not to accept that).

Auran is no different to any other company in the above in that it is totally reliant on continuous sales to have any future at all in a profit dominated world. It cannot survive on people who purchased products such as Trainz 2004 or Trainz 2006 or even TC3 unless those people continue to purchase further new or upgraded versions of Trainz into the future.

However with many that does not seem to happen, they remain with the older versions of Trainz although reliant on the download station to keep their version updated and running. They may perhaps purchase payware assets from vendors on the forums but obviously Auran does not make any income out of that. Indeed it seems to me that payware vendors seem to get a great cheap advertising platform from these forums.

However, if (as it seems many of us do) we wish to see good customer service and continuously improving new versions of Trainz into the future then we have to accept that the only way that is going to happen is for Auran to make sufficient profit from all its operations including these forums to satisfy its investors. That means we have to pay through the purchase of new versions of Trainz and perhaps a compulsory and much greater amount for the download station.

As some readers of this may remember one thing which really annoyed me was to read over the last few weeks that customers of Auran were paying for products online and then could either not download them or get them through the post despite weeks of waiting. These customers which at one time included me could not even get any answers to our problems through the so-called customer service despite putting in numerous tickets.

The above proved to me Auran were seriously underinvested and was coming to the point where it simply could not cope on the income it was generating and a breakdown in one way or another could well be just over the horizon. However, we are now reading of new servers coming online which should at least solve the download problems. But the servers have to be paid for and the only way Auran will be able to generate that expenditure is through sales and that means sales of its latest products.

As Smiley states Auran needs to communicate far better with the existing customers through these forums. But perhaps if its customer services personnel can get away from dealing with customer complaints over not being able to obtain downloads or not receiving products through the post them perhaps they will be able to contribute more frequently on the forums.

I have a good example of a product which had a very poor start going on to become a huge success through the company keeping good contact with its customer base and through that its customers keeping faith with the product. Many will remember when the first "speech to text" software came out in the early 90s what a complete disaster it was. Many people purchased various versions only to find that it was completely useless and it was consigned to the drawer within the first few weeks. Many of the early producers soon gave up but one or two did not.

One in particular kept going, each year bringing out new versions of the software each one containing often small but significant improvements that have gradually made the software something really worth having. The company have always kept in contact with their customers through e-mail requesting opinions on the latest versions and produced numerous patches each year to their current version based on feedback through the customer base.

The above has kept me for one feeling that I have a say in what was wanted and therefore I have always purchased each new version as it has come out. Just this morning (6 February) I received an e-mail advertising their latest version and the further improvements they have made. The software is not cheap but I and many others will be buying because our money keeps the improvements going.

Like Trainz speech to text software is a niche market and the above proves that provided a company in a niche market keeps good contact with its customers then they can be successful and their customers kept happy. If further proof of that is wanted I have taken four minutes to dictate this using speech software that included thinking what I was going to say in each paragraph. A good typist would say I could do that in less, but how many of us are good typist.

Bill

 

[crohakon]

I just my first "cannon download, as you have reached your 100MB limit" message, after downloading a whopping 2MB of dependencies, my first download in more than a week.

I am just glad that Auran doesn't make anything "important", like x-ray machines or airplane radar systems. I think the Trainz program itself is great, and creating a program to run on most PCs, which have about about 45,000 possible different configurations, is a challenge that bigger companies than Auran haven't figured out yet either!

However, what makes Trainz so popular is clearly the third-party content, and Auran's necessary add-ons, Download Station and Content Manager Plus (I shudder to think what the "Plus" might mean!), leave most users feeling more than a little derailed. Faulty content, dependencies CMP say are on DLS but aren't, deps that CMP say are unknown but ARE on DLS, creeping download speeds, disconnection problems, etc. have left a lot of users wondering if Auran is a two-man operation run out of someone's garage.

My bet is the latest decision to cut support for 2004/2006 is to lock out sloppy content creators who knowingly or not are failing to follow the standards for content creation. All of these issues you speak of as far as the DLS and content will be improved over time by the choice they made in regards to 2004/2006 content and program support.

 

[meridious]

I mean no disrespect but many of you seem to have missed the point on supporting Auran.
Just because people choose to create for 04 does not mean that we don't support them. There are heaps of us who continue to purchase Trainz from Auran. I have purchased 06 and 09. As for 2010, it's still up in the air whether I get this version or not.

When it comes to content, I mainly make things so that users of older versions can use it as well. I have done some 09 exclusive content in the form of ground textures. I wasn't entirely happy with them but some people liked them enough to download and use them.

TRS2006 for me was a disaster and will never again see my machines. I purchased 09 early and I'm still using it. I'm not entirely happy with it but using it none the less.

So if one looks at it from this point of view......who is not supporting who ?

 

[zatovisualworks]

who is not supporting who ?

Well written, Meri!

Taken back from a closed thread (not on my fault, I swear :hehe:


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The Trainz 1.3 and UTC age was really expensive... and hard to contribute to...:hehe: We were fewer.
====================================================

Some of these unopened and decorating my shelves amongs milliards of books.

It's not me who isn't supporting!


The supporting and contributing side of Alberte :wave:

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.
With great respect to you Meridious as a supporter and content Creator but I think you make my very point in your posting. Yes you have purchased the latest versions of Trainz yourself. But in stating that you create content for the users of 2004 means that they will never upgrade as long as they can get content for that version provided by persons like yourself. They will never provide any of the money needed by Auran to bring forward future versions of Trainz for the higher grade computers that are continuously coming on the market.

It is a hard thing to say but everything has to move on, new funds have to be provided for the ever higher quality demanded by the future first purchasers of Trainz. Within that Auran has to also satisfy its investors with a good return on the money they invest in its parent company.

Think of it this way how long will it be before customers will be demanding a 3D version of Trainz to go along with their newly purchased 3D computers. The finance for that will not be generated from people still using 2004. Future investors will not be prepared to put money into such projects if sales of current versions are unimpressive due to people being un-prepared to upgrade from older versions.

Bill

 

[gremlin1812]

G'Day, Auran had a chance to make money and prevent the current overload of the DLS by allowing 04 & 06 users to access the DLS in game provided they have a FCT but as it is at the moment regardless of an FCT you cannot get near the DLS. So much for the FCT.
Have a nice day
Barrie