What's going on here then? - BR 9F Evening Star & Black Prince

Paulsw2

Ambling on the slow line
Maybe someone at N3V could bother us with some form of announcement or explanation? What is this?

https://store.trainzportal.com/collections/dlc/products/br-9f-evening-star-black-prince

Does it include the maroon Mk1s? I have no interest in paying $25 for two museum locos that have zero usefulness on a working railway. However, I will pay this for the maroon mk1s (assuming they do not replicate the errors of the recently reissued blue and grey mk1s). Also assuming that I will actually own these coaches rather than just renting them. Maybe someone could clarify?

Regarding the 9F, is this one also going onto the shelf like the class 47? Trainz risks becoming a mausoleum of niche models!

Paul
 
Apparently it does include the maroon mk1s. Why? What have maroon mk1 coaches of the 1950s and 60s (though these look like the 60s versions) got to do with two museum freight locomotives of the 2000s? (Actually, the same question applies elsewhere - what have blue and grey Mk1 coaches got to do with A1 Pacific Tornado?)

This packaging makes no sense - now I have to acquire two pointless locomotives I have no use for in order to acquire coaches that I do. Ridiculous!
 
Maybe someone at N3V could bother us with some form of announcement or explanation?
Paul,

I think you may have missed your target here. The "complaint" should have been directed at the package creator, not the distributor. That creator, by the way, has over 700 assets built-in, on the DLS or Packaged in DLC. Since I don't have this package I cannot comment on the quality of the work and your posts above make no mention of that so I will assume that you have no complaints there.

I am not casting any aspersions on your knowledge of 9Fs and British railways of the 1950s and 60s but neither would I expect N3V to have that same level of knowledge. In fact, by extension, should N3V have a detailed knowledge of the rolling stock of every railroad, world wide, in every era? After all, they accept packages for inclusion in DLC from everywhere and everyone. Otherwise this type of "historical mistake" will be repeated (and probably has) in other DLC packages.

Now I, like most other Trainz users (I am fairly certain), would not be able to tell the difference between a "9F" and any other British loco, of any era. All I want to do is run trains from a chosen region in a chosen era with "suitable" rolling stock. I am not a rivet counter.

In the recent past there have been posts and/or threads in these forums complaining about the lack of high quality British content in DLC or DLS or both - I don't recall which. Several responses pointed to the shortage of content creators who are willing to create British content for a variety of reasons. Your posts add another reason for this shortage - if you create anything British it will be criticized for what many of us would regard as "minor issues".

Opinions on the content of DLC packages are always welcome so others can be informed. But we are each free to make up our own minds as to what we want to download, historically accurate or not. Its a game, not real life.

My thoughts
Peter
 
Hi Paul
Announcements are coming, however we wanted to have them out a little before a full announcement in the next newsletter, rather than rushing them out to meet a newsletter. This DLC is currently TrainzPlus Gold exclusive, and like other official N3V DLCs, will remain so for at least a while.

We've focused on two versions of the 9F that are more well known with passenger use (one in-service, and one for present day preservation), and included appropriate MK1 versions for the Evening Star (aka 'in service') variant we have represented. We have had help from several members of the UK Trainz community on this package, including going over both locomotive versions to ensure they represent them for their respective time periods, and to give the entire pack (including consists for Evening Star) a polish to ensure that they the best they can be.

As to going on the shelf, none of our locos or rolling stock have gone 'on the shelf'... But considering we aren't a team of dozens of artists/creators, there's only so much we can do at any one time ;) We have plans to make use of the models we have already made, covering various time periods and liveries, but each of them will take time to get to. And of course, each of the packages we make in-house will be primarily focused on Trainz Plus or Trainz Plus Gold releases first, but may become builtin content later (or included in a platinum edition, or equivalent); or sometimes may become available for individual purchase later on.

Regards
 
Thanks for the response Zec. I'm disappointed about various elements of this approach but I won't labour the point. I am surprised they're only available to Gold members as they are presented in the Content Store priced at $24.99 so I assumed they could be purchased by the whole community? (are they not available free to Gold members?) I have Plus membership now, so will I be able to buy them in the future? And if I buy them, will I own them? (ie. will they be retained in my install even if I cancel my subscription?)

It is disappointing these maroon Mk1s will not be usable in any sessions to upload to the DLS (as they will appear as missing dependencies for all but the small minority of Gold members).
 
I am surprised they're only available to Gold members as they are presented in the Content Store priced at $24.99 so I assumed they could be purchased by the whole community?
Some DLC is released as a "Preview" that is only available (free) to Gold members for a set initial period - usually a few weeks - before it can be purchased by the rest of the community. After that they are still available free to Gold members.
 
It won't be long before I'm a 25 year Coal member. That should be worth at least a free caboose with my name on it.........grrrrrr.
 
That should be worth at least a free caboose with my name on it
JimDep.jpg
 
Some DLC is released as a "Preview" that is only available (free) to Gold members for a set initial period - usually a few weeks - before it can be purchased by the rest of the community. After that they are still available free to Gold members.
Yes, that's what I had assumed, however in the DLC store it says, "This item is only available if you own a Trainz Plus Gold membership" which seems rather final. It would be odd as this would mean the models are only available free (to Gold members) so N3V can earn no revenue from them. I think I've said before, but it would be useful to know what the Trainz Product Lifecycle is so we have some sense of when (if ever) models will become available to buy.
 
Yes, that's what I had assumed, however in the DLC store it says, "This item is only available if you own a Trainz Plus Gold membership" which seems rather final. It would be odd as this would mean the models are only available free (to Gold members) so N3V can earn no revenue from them. I think I've said before, but it would be useful to know what the Trainz Product Lifecycle is so we have some sense of when (if ever) models will become available to buy.
Just because Trainz Plus Gold subscribers don't pay twice to access DLC packs doesn't mean we are earning no revenue from them.

As with several other DLC packs, the Trainz Plus Gold subscription has the perk of accessing new DLC packs early and some exclusive DLC content. For 3rd party DLC packs, this is the 2 week previewpass. For N3V made content, this isn't a set timeframe, and as such will vary between DLC packs, such as until they are included in a future release (ie the BR Class 11 in green will be included in the Trainz Model Railroad 2 edition when fully released) or bundled with a platinum edition, or similar; however we are discussing other options for individual DLC packs for the future as well as we don't intend to rule any options out. As it stands now though, some DLC packs are exclusive to Trainz Plus Gold, some are exclusive to Trainz Plus Standard and Gold, and this is shown in the store and on the Trainz Plus website ( https://info.trainzsimulator.com/trainz-plus#contentcomingsoon I will note, this needs some updates now that the 9Fs are released lol).

To say we earn no revenue from them is not true, the DLCs are a part of what we offer as part of the Trainz Plus Gold subscription, which we earn revenue from. As such those DLCs do early money for us, via their inclusion in the subscriptions. This is the same for content creators who's content is available on the Trainz Store; they also earn revenue from the use of their DLCs accessed via subscriptions (either an old 'silver' subscription, or a Trainz Plus Gold subscription).

We understand that the subscriptions aren't for everyone, however they are very popular, and we do intend to continue to offer the benefits to those who have active subscriptions that we advertise, be it early access to new features, early access to new content, or exclusive content.

Regards
 
Thanks for the response Zec. I quite understand how the offer of free DLC may enhance the attractiveness of Gold membership and therefore increase N3V's subscription income. What I can't quite get my mind round is why the DLC Store is offering these models for sale at $24.99 when clearly they are not for sale - the pack cannot be bought as only Gold members have access to it, for free. Are they for sale or not?

A Product Lifecycle that offers DLC first to Gold members (for free) and then Plus members (to pay) and then to everyone else (to pay) is also fine (and very much in line with where modern games and software is heading). But it would be helpful if you spelled out what the timeline looks like across the lifecycle. How long will non-Gold members have to wait before they can buy the DLC in question?

I can't justify a Gold subscription just to obtain 6 Mk1 maroon coaches. But I am willing to pay for them (I have a Plus subscription if that helps). Can you clarify how long I (and others) will have to wait before they are available to non-Gold members?
 
An example: "BR HST - Inter-City 125 & Midland Pullman" and "British Model Railway" are not available for purchase since November, 2022. Almost 2 years...
That seems a hell of a long time, I'm not one to talk as I never buy anything other than new game versions and FCT's as I'm too busy building my own creations to allow me time to drive other routes , but that seems an excessive wait, I suppose its to motivate folks to keep paying for their Gold subs, give them up and you cant use stuff you are used to having around.
 
Hi Paul
Announcements are coming, however we wanted to have them out a little before a full announcement in the next newsletter, rather than rushing them out to meet a newsletter. This DLC is currently TrainzPlus Gold exclusive, and like other official N3V DLCs, will remain so for at least a while.

We've focused on two versions of the 9F that are more well known with passenger use (one in-service, and one for present day preservation), and included appropriate MK1 versions for the Evening Star (aka 'in service') variant we have represented. We have had help from several members of the UK Trainz community on this package, including going over both locomotive versions to ensure they represent them for their respective time periods, and to give the entire pack (including consists for Evening Star) a polish to ensure that they the best they can be.

As to going on the shelf, none of our locos or rolling stock have gone 'on the shelf'... But considering we aren't a team of dozens of artists/creators, there's only so much we can do at any one time ;) We have plans to make use of the models we have already made, covering various time periods and liveries, but each of them will take time to get to. And of course, each of the packages we make in-house will be primarily focused on Trainz Plus or Trainz Plus Gold releases first, but may become builtin content later (or included in a platinum edition, or equivalent); or sometimes may become available for individual purchase later on.

Regards
As a matter of academic interest, the "9F" was British Railways highest rating for a freight locomotive and would therefore never see service hauling passenger stock. The only use a 9F + coaches would serve is for a preservation company on their private trackwork, or if BR gave permission to operate a special train on BR tracks. In the latter scenario, a diesel would be coupled at the rear just in case of a power failure up front, The diesel would then move the consist as directed by BR to avoid disruption of their regular services. The above comments are based on my observations of the ECML between 1958 and 1968.
 
An example: "BR HST - Inter-City 125 & Midland Pullman" and "British Model Railway" are not available for purchase since November, 2022. Almost 2 years...
Thanks for that. I wasn't aware they still weren't available to buy yet. That's worrying. Does the same apply to the Tornado and Mk1 coaches pack? I think that part of the concern here is that N3V don't really 'do' product lifecycle management and, because it's such a small team, without necessarily meaning to, they don't get round to sorting stuff out for years. So models tend to get stuck in whatever state they're initially issued in and are not progressed through a consistent development timescale in how they're offered to the community.
It's not very often you have to plead with a retailer to sell you something. :)
I did laugh at this, but you've put your finger on the fundamental point. Increasingly, software vendors are not behaving like retailers but rentiers, ie. they don't want to sell you their software, they want you to rent if from them for a subscription. That way they get a guaranteed income and don't necessarily have to do very much in the way of product development apart from keeping the architecture functioning and the lights on, very much like your average landlord. Show me someone who prefers to be a tenant rather than an owner occupier! :p
 
As a matter of academic interest, the "9F" was British Railways highest rating for a freight locomotive and would therefore never see service hauling passenger stock. The only use a 9F + coaches would serve is for a preservation company on their private trackwork, or if BR gave permission to operate a special train on BR tracks. In the latter scenario, a diesel would be coupled at the rear just in case of a power failure up front, The diesel would then move the consist as directed by BR to avoid disruption of their regular services. The above comments are based on my observations of the ECML between 1958 and 1968.
I think that 9F's were used as relief locos for passenger work and turned out to be very free running and fast (I seem to recall they performed some heroics on the Somerset and Dorset line for example) but were then banned from this work when it came to the attention of senior management who thought it impermissible that a 10-coupled freight engine could be run in this way (possibly a bit like Network Rail today who I believe have also banned them on the grounds their wheel sets will 'damage' turnouts and crossings?)
 
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As of today, here is the list of the DLCs only available for Standard or Gold members and their release dates:

17.11.2022 • BR HST - Inter-City 125 & Midland Pullman
17.11.2022 • British Model Railway
06.12.2022 • Amtrak Superliners
21.12.2022 • LNER Peppercorn Class A1 60163 Tornado
22.12.2022 • Datsun Junction Model Railroad
31.03.2023 • Budd RDC-1
31.05.2023 • Model Trainz: New Haven Industrial Park
18.10.2023 • The Wattz & Voltz Interurban
06.08.2024 • BR Class 11 Black & Green
04.10.2024 • BR 9F Evening Star & Black Prince
 
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