What do ya think?

Since there isn't a section for fantasy railroads, I guess this is the best place to put this.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zcBzmHSZPCJI.k5gphSkibRfk

I'm not going to explain everything, as I always seem to leave something out. I leave it to y'all to ask questions.

This is a rather rough outline of a fantasy narrow gauge railroad (2ft 3in) that goes fro Clarksville to about Oark. When I originally mapped this, it was planned to go all the way to Oark, but as there really isn't any practical way of getting into Oark or near it without having to walk, I decided to cut the line short and end it at the site of a small abandoned picnic area. (The old stone picnic tables are still there to this day!) I'm not really sure what the grades are along the line, but they are fairly steep. Also, I think I should explain "Home to Clarksville-Oark Line" and why it ends in the middle of an empty field. That field is just outside my house and is owned by my parents. Honestly, having to drive 30 minutes every morning and evening down the mountain would be hecktic, and a bit pointless when you can build a house in that same field. (But that's just me.) Anyways, questions? Suggestions? Just want to know what y'all think.

EDIT: Map has changed. Switchback above Horsehead has been removed, switchbacks have been added to the "Home to Clarksville-Oark Line", and the line somewhat follows Highway 103 north of Yarborough's Gap, along with a few other minor changes. (Thanks Falcus, you seem to have a better eye for terrain than I do.) Still up for questions and suggestions, though.
 
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That line to your house would be a god awful bear.... The grades are going to be redonculous. It seems to gain (Hard to know for sure, not seeing a distance Scale anywhere on this freakin thing. Hate the new G-Maps) something like 1000 feet in I would guess less then a few miles? If you were gonna put a switch back anywhere, that would be where I would suggest it.... Least likely place you're going to have a load to boot. After that though, your line to your house is ok under the guise of pure fantasy, but I hope you're rich in your fantasy because even running a Shay on Switch Backs, you're gonna eat tons of Water and fuel every day going back and forth over that.

On that note, I would probably suggest 3ft 6Inch for this. Gets you the most bang for your buck as far as haulage over distance is concerned. The issues with 2ft Gauges is that the wheels are so small that it takes you forever to get anywhere. This looks to be something on the order of 10-20 miles from one end to the other? If thats the case, in 2ft gauge you're looking at "See you next Tuesday Honey!" as you putter down your mountain..... 2Ft guage is best for doing crazy things in very very short spaces (Not to say people didn't do it anyway, but this is your fantasy, do you want to be home every night or not?).

Clarksville:
Is this a historic Rail line? Or a "I won the lotto guys!" Fantasy? If its the former, move into the city and find a nice old Rustic Clapboard Station to drop in downtown somewhere with a street on the former R.O.W. where it used to run further East.... If its the latter, well, do whatever you want, up to and including Neon Light "Eat at Joe's!" signs and put em anywhere....

Horse-Head Lake Campground.... That looks like an AWESOME Spot for at least a Wye and a siding or a runaround. Short Excursions to scenic areas are milk and honey to touristy railroads. After that lakes are good for Lumber (Logs float remember).

North of Horsehead Lake....
-Switch backs.... They seem like a good idea now.... HOOO BOY are you gonna get tired of seeing the approaches to that stretch though when you get there.... Expensive Steel Bridge Horse Tracks were even preferred over Switchbacks....
-My suggestion would be to use the walls of that Canyon North of the Lake to gain altitude. Thats what a Narrow gauge line would do.... LOTS of opportunities for awesome bridges/trestles too. Them Switchbacks! Makes me Cringe lookin at em!

Yarbough Gap.
I would seriously investigate the path of HWY 103 North of that gap vs your proposed Route. It might make more sense to follow the road then to blaze your own trail, and lots of opportunities for Road Side Tracking Camera Positions. Might also give you an excellent opportunity for over and under passes, and as railroaders we like seeing meets of any kind right? Trees and shrubs do get boring after awhile and this is fantasy ya?

Next. Why not run it to Oark? You'll have to cross that crick a bunch, but so what? It looks like you're pretty much at the highest point of that little canyon there already, after that all you gotta do is keep going forward.... theres a nice little (I'm guessing) Swampy maybe(?) area there between Wa****a Creek and 103..... Perfect spot for little trestles and things I'd bet.... After that just follow 103 up to just before the meet with the 215, and turn right into Oark. Seems pretty straight forward the whole way being ~1000 Feet (Yea, this Topo Map isn't great with 200 Ft increments, but whatever).

You could also put a Wye out there where 103 meets 215 and go straight out to Yale..... That whole path along the Mulberry river seems pretty flat from what I'm seeing (I'm sure their would be some grading, but there is a reason why Railroads followed rivers anywhere they could).... After that you could keep going West to Cass and say you meet up with NS there or something? If you could get that as a DEM I would have a field day with it.... lol.

-Falcus
P.S. I think you could arguably call this a "Protolanced" route if you do in fact use DEM.
 
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The grades are going to be redonculous. ...

If you download the map as a KMZ you can import it into Google Earth and look at an elevation profile. Here's what the grades look like (below), which btw, max out at 23.9 to -33.4 percent! :eek:

Fantasy_RR.jpg
 
That line to your house would be a god awful bear.... The grades are going to be redonculous. It seems to gain (Hard to know for sure, not seeing a distance Scale anywhere on this freakin thing. Hate the new G-Maps) something like 1000 feet in I would guess less then a few miles? If you were gonna put a switch back anywhere, that would be where I would suggest it.... Least likely place you're going to have a load to boot. After that though, your line to your house is ok under the guise of pure fantasy, but I hope you're rich in your fantasy because even running a Shay on Switch Backs, you're gonna eat tons of Water and fuel every day going back and forth over that.

I measured the section that looked like it had the steepest clime (the app has a ruler tool) and took a fairly good estimation of the gain in elevation. The grade was something like 12% to 14%. Redonculous be correct. lol As for how rich I am, well... :o

On that note, I would probably suggest 3ft 6Inch for this. Gets you the most bang for your buck as far as haulage over distance is concerned. The issues with 2ft Gauges is that the wheels are so small that it takes you forever to get anywhere. This looks to be something on the order of 10-20 miles from one end to the other? If thats the case, in 2ft gauge you're looking at "See you next Tuesday Honey!" as you putter down your mountain..... 2Ft guage is best for doing crazy things in very very short spaces (Not to say people didn't do it anyway, but this is your fantasy, do you want to be home every night or not?).

Bigger wheels? Maybe? *shrug* I chose 2ft 3in because... Well let me explain it like this. Part of this fantasy involves a custom steam locomotive design, which is a modified version of Talyllyn's "Edward Thomas". Plus, since the gauge is halfway between 2ft and 2ft 6in, I would only have to regauge a preexisting locomotive or rail car by three inches, instead of six inches. I have considered 3ft gauge, but that gauge is everywhere! Kind of takes away from the uniqueness (but that's just me). (BTW, it's 22 miles long.)

Clarksville:
Is this a historic Rail line? Or a "I won the lotto guys!" Fantasy? If its the former, move into the city and find a nice old Rustic Clapboard Station to drop in downtown somewhere with a street on the former R.O.W. where it used to run further East.... If its the latter, well, do whatever you want, up to and including Neon Light "Eat at Joe's!" signs and put em anywhere....

This is a "I won the lotto guys!" fantasy. There has been a line in the area that went from Combs to Cass. It would probably make more sense to lay track where that line went, but most of the right-of-way has been turned into dirt roads, which have a surprising amount of ATV traffic.

Neon lights? I like it! lol

Horse-Head Lake Campground.... That looks like an AWESOME Spot for at least a Wye and a siding or a runaround. Short Excursions to scenic areas are milk and honey to touristy railroads. After that lakes are good for Lumber (Logs float remember).

That actually would make more sense to stop at Horsehead (which I had never even thought of). The only problem is, well, Horsehead Lake isn't exactly what most would call a "beautiful lake". It's a fairly nice looking lake, but not exactly someplace you would want to end the line at.

How did you know about the backup logging-- wait, never mind.

North of Horsehead Lake....
-Switch backs.... They seem like a good idea now.... HOOO BOY are you gonna get tired of seeing the approaches to that stretch though when you get there.... Expensive Steel Bridge Horse Tracks were even preferred over Switchbacks....
-My suggestion would be to use the walls of that Canyon North of the Lake to gain altitude. Thats what a Narrow gauge line would do.... LOTS of opportunities for awesome bridges/trestles too. Them Switchbacks! Makes me Cringe lookin at em!

Yeah, I'm not even sure why I even switched (no pun intended) to using a switchback. You're right, bridges/trestles would make more sense.

Yarbough Gap.
I would seriously investigate the path of HWY 103 North of that gap vs your proposed Route. It might make more sense to follow the road then to blaze your own trail, and lots of opportunities for Road Side Tracking Camera Positions. Might also give you an excellent opportunity for over and under passes, and as railroaders we like seeing meets of any kind right? Trees and shrubs do get boring after awhile and this is fantasy ya?

Well, it takes looking at the surrounding area from 103 to understand why I didn't choose following 103 in the first place. There's not a lot of space between the road and the properties along the road. Plus when you go down the hill, there's a shear drop on one side of the road and a cliff on the other. (Hard to tell from a bird's eye view.) But I suppose there could be a few places the line could criss-cross 103.

Next. Why not run it to Oark? You'll have to cross that crick a bunch, but so what? It looks like you're pretty much at the highest point of that little canyon there already, after that all you gotta do is keep going forward.... theres a nice little (I'm guessing) Swampy maybe(?) area there between Wa****a Creek and 103..... Perfect spot for little trestles and things I'd bet.... After that just follow 103 up to just before the meet with the 215, and turn right into Oark. Seems pretty straight forward the whole way being ~1000 Feet (Yea, this Topo Map isn't great with 200 Ft increments, but whatever).

The area between the crick and 103 is mostly forest and open field, actually.

It's not so much getting to Oark, it's more of getting into Oark. The original plan was to end the line near or at the Oark General Store (which, BTW, is the oldest continually operating store, now a restaurant, in Arkansas, so it gets a lot of tourism). But since there's hardly any practical way of getting into Oark without people having to walk a considerable distance, I decided to shorten the line.

You could also put a Wye out there where 103 meets 215 and go straight out to Yale..... That whole path along the Mulberry river seems pretty flat from what I'm seeing (I'm sure their would be some grading, but there is a reason why Railroads followed rivers anywhere they could).... After that you could keep going West to Cass and say you meet up with NS there or something? If you could get that as a DEM I would have a field day with it.... lol.

I have actually seriously considered that because of the large amounts of tourism in that direction, but there's a problem with following the Mulberry River. Legally, no one can build anything within a certain distance of the river. There are quite a few places that I would be infringing on the legal distance. And I might be able to get away with crossing the river once, maybe twice, but not the number of times I would have to cross the river.

NS? What'chu talking about, son? It's all UP out here! :p But on a more serious note, I think I'd have to go a lot further than Cass to run across another railroad. lol

P.S. I think you could arguably call this a "Protolanced" route if you do in fact use DEM.

DEM is a serious consideration. But for now, I think I'll sadly have to settle for "potential future protolanced railroad" for now. lol

P.S. Your feedback has really helped me out with this! Thanks!
 
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Nothing a few tunnels, spirals and bridges wont fix. ;) Back in the old days, if they want to get a track there, they did it, what they did to get it there is sometimes a feat of engineering. I like the idea of designing a track on a map like that, because the real challenge is how to turn it into reality and make it work. Good luck, it looks like an interesting area.
 
I whole heartedly agree with Iannz.

As for all the stuff you said about "Can't be done for this or that reason", didn't'chu just say you won the Lotto? Buy out some of them houses! Grease a City Official in Oark and drop a station accross the street from that old store (The store will love you for it) I come from Seattle where we voted DOWN not one, but TWO big fancy corporate/billionaire Stadiums and guess what we got? 2 new big fancy stadiums.... Cross that river as often as you need! If you're gonna win the Lotto, shoot for the stars man! XD

After that, I could say that, yes, ok you can go for 2 ft gauge if you want... It is YOUR fantasy, so you should ultimately do what you want regardless.... But before you get started laying track, create a new layout, plink down 5 Baseboards (If I remember the Conversion correctly that should be just *2* miles), and lay track from one end to tother.... Drop a building on either end. Now drop a train down on one end and drive to tother.... Now multiply that by 10 and multiply it again by 5 (Since you're definitely going to be having lots of twisty awesome looking track work that will require slower then Max Speeds), and thats about how long it should take you to go from one end of your route to tother.... I suggest using one of those Talyllyn locomotives.

If that doesn't do it for you, I did some research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talyllyn_Railway
The Talyllyn railway is 7 & 1/4 Miles long....

http://www.talyllyn.co.uk/groups
[h=3]Round trip[/h] Tywyn Wharf - Nant Gwernol - Tywyn Wharf
Duration: 2 hours 30 minutes
[h=3]Extended single[/h] Tywyn Wharf - Nant Gwernol - Abergynolwyn
Duration: 1 hour 50 minutes
[h=3]Single[/h] Tywyn Wharf - Abergynolwyn or reverse
Duration: 1 hour 25 minutes
It takes them almost an Hour and a Half to go less then 8 miles one way..... well just round some of the decimals out, so we get 7.25 miles divided by 1.5 hours comes out to about 4.8 miles an hour.... We'll round that up to 5, and you're looking at 4 hours just to go from one end of your line to tother..... Probably longer. Okay, its a tourist line, but tourists usually don't all want to buy a whole day trip pass for one event, and even more rarely want to pay out for an overnighter for something they're gonna see twice.... Like I say, its your fantasy route, do what you want, but the speed is gonna kill the sales, and more importantly you.... 3ft gauge was popular for a reason, namely it worked very very well in the U.S. because of the distances involved between stops. And if you want to ever haul more then whiny tourists (Believe me, I know, been there done that), speed will definitely become a consideration.

Finally, Horsehead Lake, just to clarify. Most touristy railroads offer differing packages to draw in customers wanting different experiences. If you do go with 2ft Gauge for instance, you could probably make the run from Clarksville to Horsehead Lake and back with a brief 15 minute stop in about 4 hours or so (Or 2.5 or so if you went with 3ft Gauge, longer if you wanted to give people more time to look around). Remember, a BIG part of touristy stuff is PACKING your seats. More runs = More revenue *if you can get the tourists*. Talyllyn's charm isn't the Rail Gauge, its the calm quiet atmosphere with beautiful scenic vistas, only train nuts like us care about the Gauge its running on, lol. Having a higher speed, and multiple stops gives you lots of options along this line, if you're looking for anything like realistic operations anyway. Make a stop at those Picnic Tables too for a Run-by opportunity, or even as a slightly bigger Touristy package with a 1 hour stop for a Lunch or something. The sky's the limit!

Cheers,
Falcus
 
Nothing a few tunnels, spirals and bridges wont fix. ;) Back in the old days, if they want to get a track there, they did it, what they did to get it there is sometimes a feat of engineering. I like the idea of designing a track on a map like that, because the real challenge is how to turn it into reality and make it work. Good luck, it looks like an interesting area.

Thanks, man! :) I agree, it is amazing how some railroads are able to traverse their terrain.
 
I whole heartedly agree with Iannz.

As for all the stuff you said about "Can't be done for this or that reason", didn't'chu just say you won the Lotto? Buy out some of them houses! Grease a City Official in Oark and drop a station accross the street from that old store (The store will love you for it) I come from Seattle where we voted DOWN not one, but TWO big fancy corporate/billionaire Stadiums and guess what we got? 2 new big fancy stadiums.... Cross that river as often as you need! If you're gonna win the Lotto, shoot for the stars man! XD

Must be an awfully big lotto! I mean this is my fantasy, but good grief, what kind of lotto have I won?! The Fort Knox Sweepstakes? lol

Aw, come on! I'm too honest to grease Oark city officials. Plus there are none! :hehe: And come on now, we don't want to reinforce the stereotype that railroads are greedy enough to pay their way through everything, now do we? Railroads are here (should be, at least) to help communities, not railroad them. :)

After that, I could say that, yes, ok you can go for 2 ft gauge if you want... It is YOUR fantasy, so you should ultimately do what you want regardless.... But before you get started laying track, create a new layout, plink down 5 Baseboards (If I remember the Conversion correctly that should be just *2* miles), and lay track from one end to tother.... Drop a building on either end. Now drop a train down on one end and drive to tother.... Now multiply that by 10 and multiply it again by 5 (Since you're definitely going to be having lots of twisty awesome looking track work that will require slower then Max Speeds), and thats about how long it should take you to go from one end of your route to tother.... I suggest using one of those Talyllyn locomotives.

If that doesn't do it for you, I did some research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talyllyn_Railway
The Talyllyn railway is 7 & 1/4 Miles long....

http://www.talyllyn.co.uk/groups

It takes them almost an Hour and a Half to go less then 8 miles one way..... well just round some of the decimals out, so we get 7.25 miles divided by 1.5 hours comes out to about 4.8 miles an hour.... We'll round that up to 5, and you're looking at 4 hours just to go from one end of your line to tother..... Probably longer. Okay, its a tourist line, but tourists usually don't all want to buy a whole day trip pass for one event, and even more rarely want to pay out for an overnighter for something they're gonna see twice.... Like I say, its your fantasy route, do what you want, but the speed is gonna kill the sales, and more importantly you.... 3ft gauge was popular for a reason, namely it worked very very well in the U.S. because of the distances involved between stops. And if you want to ever haul more then whiny tourists (Believe me, I know, been there done that), speed will definitely become a consideration.

It takes that long? (Dang.)

I see what you're saying about the gauge, and you're more than likely right. But I do have one more question about 2ft 3in gauge verses 3ft gauge. I'm not sure how sharp of curves 3ft gauge can handle. I know that it mostly depends on the locomotive and rolling stock, but I'm still concerned. Most of the curves are fairly gentle, but there are a few places where I'm unsure about. More specifically, the hairpin at Horsehead and the curves following 103. (I updated the map, BTW.) I'm not very proficient in measuring the sharpness of curves yet. (Which I probably should have learned how to do before I mapped this. Oh well.) You might be able to better measure the curves if you opened the map in Google Earth and used the ruler tool since that's kinda hard to do in Google Maps.

Finally, Horsehead Lake, just to clarify. Most touristy railroads offer differing packages to draw in customers wanting different experiences. If you do go with 2ft Gauge for instance, you could probably make the run from Clarksville to Horsehead Lake and back with a brief 15 minute stop in about 4 hours or so (Or 2.5 or so if you went with 3ft Gauge, longer if you wanted to give people more time to look around). Remember, a BIG part of touristy stuff is PACKING your seats. More runs = More revenue *if you can get the tourists*. Talyllyn's charm isn't the Rail Gauge, its the calm quiet atmosphere with beautiful scenic vistas, only train nuts like us care about the Gauge its running on, lol. Having a higher speed, and multiple stops gives you lots of options along this line, if you're looking for anything like realistic operations anyway. Make a stop at those Picnic Tables too for a Run-by opportunity, or even as a slightly bigger Touristy package with a 1 hour stop for a Lunch or something. The sky's the limit!

Cheers,
Falcus

Ah, I see what you're saying about Horsehead. Gotcha.

I'll put all of this into serious consideration.
 
You said it already. Depends on your locomotives & Rolling stock. Any Gauge railroad can do things like 90 degree turns, if they have locomotives that can apply power to trucks and wheels that can make that corner, and pull any rolling stock equipped with similar though unpowered trucks through said corner..... If you're looking for traditional, probably 20 degrees or so at any kind of speed is getting to be a bit much, but I'll let you in on a little secret.... Trainz doesn't really care about Curve Degree. At least not yet..... They have a tool to measure it (Which isn't very effective if you ask me, but I'll admit it might be in part user Error), but with the way they did the Surveyor with Splines and what not, they pretty much had to build into the physics the ability for locomotives to take stupid crazy corners compared to real life. Ultimately I would probably suggest to choose your curvature Operations based on the grades you end up putting into this thing, as really the Grades are the bigger factor in limiting speed in the sim. If you're already doing a 10mph crawl up a 10% grade with a Geared locomotive (Shay or Climax probably), crazy corner's matter less. But if you keep your R.O.W. down to less then say 3%, you probably want to try to not go too crazy on the corners...

Though, another little secret? Have a look at the Terrain Tools in Surveyor.... See the big down arrow tool? Or the "Get Height" and "Set Height To" Tools? You can always "Flatten" the geography a bit to suit your needs. This IS your Fantasy after all.... And I dare say you're gonna have to do some of that regardless, just as any real railroad would if they were legitimately going to build there, up to and including making room for appropriate curves.

-Falcus
 
That depends on what you're shooting for. This is a fantasy route. You could run 4x Main-lines right up each of those canyons if you wanted to.....

However, that said, if near to prototype is what you're shooting for, and you know you're narrowgauging it, then it will almost certainly be single mainline. You have to remember that the Railroads tended to balance "Practical Need/Profitability" against "Cost". Along those lines, why would you need mono-directional mainlines? You're not gonna be running more then a few trains a day over this line yes? Single mainline can effectively handle a couple dozen trains depending on the distances involved with nothing more then a few well placed Sidings.....

-Falcus
 
If you are lazy and don't want to fight AI issues, a double-track mainline is the best. If you want prototype, well a single-track is more common.

John
 
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