West Coast Railways Banned Again from UK Rail Network.

[edh6]

There is no shortage of private and volunteer run heritage railways throughout the UK where these locomotives can be seen running throughout the year. In many people's eyes it is time that these heritage services should be confined to those railways. Is it not time to stop a minority of people playing “choo choos” on the mainline and “old codgers” reliving their youth to the inconvenience and safety detriment of all others wishing to get to work or carry out their daily business via Britain's railways.

Once again you seem to be confusing the WCRC with all steam locomotives and their operators... I think some people might take offence at the "old codgers" bit too, here's a couple of photos of Flying Scotsman's crew, they don't look very old to me!

 

[BLACKWATCH]

the inconvenience of all others wishing to get to work or carry out their daily business via Britain's railways./QUOTE]

Who don't happen to give a 'flying one', for the inconvenience of all others wishing to get to work or carry out their daily business by road, when the crossing gates are closed for up to 7 miutes at a time, 4 or 5 times an hour, causing rush hour tail backs of up to a mile & a half.
This makes a journey into a LOCAL place of work only 4 miles away, take over 30 minutes EVERY morning.

 

[amigacooke]

Just look on any of the numerous UK rail forums where there is plenty of comment to be seen.

Bill

Indeed, but most of it about subjects other than WCR, presumably because steam workings are such a tiny part of the modern network.

 

[nathanmallard]

To further my first point, I'm not sure wholbr realises how lucky we are to have regular steam excursions over our national network, I reckon some in the US would kill to see a see a streamlined PRR K4 hurtling down the NEC at 90mph, as that is effectively the equivalent to what we have here.

 

[rjhowie]

Hhhm, I think edh6 is maybe stretching things a wee bit.

I know here in Gt Britain the railways are under increasing pressure from constantly increasing passengers but I hardly think that steam excursions are so many to cause a problem. And as for the public having a great antipathy towards the excursions is pushing the boat out a tad as well. Britain is perhaps one of the top countries with railway preservation societies which have vast numbers going to them so a little exaggeration is going on. Rail is very much part of the country and was invented here and it helped change the nation in a very practical; way in every sense so why not the occasional steam trip. If these excursions were running every day all overevery line I could see the point but the negative feeling is a bit over the top!

 

[clam1952]

Hhhm, I think edh6 is maybe stretching things a wee bit.

Don't think edh6 will very happy with your comment

Once again you seem to be confusing the WCRC with all steam locomotives and their operators... I think some people might take offence at the "old codgers" bit too, here's a couple of photos of Flying Scotsman's crew, they don't look very old to me!

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.

Would you like to tell that to the NRM, who have just spent 4.2 million pounds on the the

Flying Scotsman so it can run on the ECML once again? Or the A1 Locomotive Trust, or Jeremy Hosking, or Pete Waterman? I think it's you that's living in the past here, the steam ban was lifted in the 70s and may it never return. In fact, a new age of steam is dawning....Patriot, P2, B17, G5 etc...

The National Railway Museum is a taxpayer funded organisation and has spent it is thought between 6 and 7 million pounds on the entire Flying Scotsman Project with approximately 5 million of that coming from the public purse. So, I would certainly like to have told the NRM (had I been given the opportunity to do so), not to spend my hard earned money on this project.

The NRM should not have started this financial fiasco unless they could demonstrate they had public support for doing so especially from regular rail commuters and business users who really pay through very high ticket prices for the railways here in the uk along with the taxpayer. If Waterman and co, wish to indulge their privileged whims, let them put their locomotives on the many heritage lines that there are in the UK and not on the rail infrastructure provided by the taxpayers and regular rail users.

To further my first point, I'm not sure wholbr realises how lucky we are to have regular steam excursions over our national network, I reckon some in the US would kill to see a see a streamlined PRR K4 hurtling down the NEC at 90mph, as that is effectively the equivalent to what we have here.

Natham,As I stated in an earlier posting in this thread, a recent survey carried out by the office of road and rail found that over 25% of regular rail users in the Southeast region and more than 15% of rail users in other regions are very dissatisfied with the service they are receiving from the rail companies in terms of punctuality, overcrowding, cleanliness, ticket prices and even the often encountered problem of their trains not actually running at all. I would also point out, that when banning West Coast Railways from the mainline for the second time in February this year, Network Rail cited WCR Heritage services causing delays to other train services as one of the reasons for implementing the ban.

We have at present a government running a very large deficit on the public finances and looking for anyway it can to reduce that deficit. It has taken from the mid 1980s until today to put Britain's railways back at the centre of the country's transport infrastructure with constantly growing passenger numbers in all regions. The foregoing has come about by high priced taxpayer funding of development in the rail industry which is still continuing at present.

However, should passenger numbers start to fall through dissatisfaction with the services provided then have no doubt that this government or any other would immediately cut the Public funding of the railways as an aid to balancing government expenditure.

Further to the above, only last week it was announced that there is to be a large increase in the amount of public money to be invested in the road infrastructure. Many in the road transport took the foregoing as a warning to the railways that their funding was very much not “sacrosanct” with the road hauliers for the first time in many years seemingly having the “government's ear”.

Yes, many heritage trains run on a weekend but not all. However, Britain is a 7-day working society with many commuters having to get to work on a weekend as much as they do on weekdays in present times. Network Rail must have had complaints from many rail users along with the main train operating companies to have included the delays caused by West Coast Railways heritage services as one of the reasons for the February ban.

In all the foregoing it has to be asked, does Britain want a modern railway running first class services for it's passengers which is very much part of Britain's growing transport infrastructure and economic growth. The answer to the foregoing must be a definite yes and therefore Network Rail and the office of road and rail need to concentrate solely on creating the above if Britain's railways are to remain at the centre of that infrastructure and growth.

So, let's have an end to Britain's main rail lines being used by clowns playing Choo Choo's on them with these “old tin kettles” and indulging old codgers in reliving their youth in the ancient carriages attached. That can all be carried out on Britain's many heritage Lines with no inconvenience or safety concerns to anyone.

West Coast Railways are very much “not out of the woods” yet as many seem to think. They have still to face along with the driver of the locomotive involved in the Wotton Bassett spad a criminal court case which with any luck will see them off the rails and out of business permanently. At least that will be one less crowd playing choo choos on our railways to worry about.

Bll

 

[BLACKWATCH]

Britain is a 7-day working society with many commuters having to get to work on a weekend as much as they do on weekdays in present times

If people worked locally, or moved to where they managed to obtain work in their highly paid careers, they would put less stress on our railways & roads, therefore
saving the taxpayer from having to invest so much cash into the systems.
They would also be better off, due to not having to pay the exhorbitant rail ticket & petrol prices.

 

[amigacooke]

Bill this is obvious nonsense, it's like trying to suggest you can solve the traffic problems in the south east by banning the London to Brighton veteran car run.

Presumably when BR banned steam locomotives from the main line an era of unprecedented efficiency and customer satisfaction followed. Yeah, right. This particular hobby horse of yours is the reddest of red herrings.

 

[wholbr]

Bill this is obvious nonsense, it's like trying to suggest you can solve the traffic problems in the south east by banning the London to Brighton veteran car run.

Presumably when BR banned steam locomotives from the main line an era of unprecedented efficiency and customer satisfaction followed. Yeah, right. This particular hobby horse of yours is the reddest of red herrings.

Oh, come on amigacooke you can usually do better than the above posting. Stop and think about it how many employees hours have been spent by Network Rail looking into the matters that led to the two bans on West Coast Railways. Each banning order meant that at least 6 separate investigations had to be carried out before the bannings could be imposed.

Alongside the above, Network Rail and the office of road and rail have been working with the Health and Safety Executive for the last twelve months in bringing forward the prosecution of West Coast Railways and the driver involved in the Wotton Bassett spad in which the case is expected in court in early May this year.

The above total of man hours involved in the investigations and prosecution preliminaries probably runs into many hundreds of hours by Network Rail employees and the office of road and rail. This at a time when the above two offices should have been concentrating on cost overruns in various rail projects especially the electrification of the Great Western mainline which is running 2 years late and billions over budget.

All the above cost has come about because of a clown company wishing to play Choo Choo's on Britain's mainline rail infrastructure to the severe detriment of the industry and high cost to the taxpayer.

It should also not have passed the notice of anyone that the two separate bodies responsible for controlling Britain's road and rail infrastructure have now been combined into one, namely the office of road and rail. it would seem that within the new body the road transport lobby has much more influence on government thinking than previous, Hence the sudden unexpected large investment in the UK road infrastructure.

Doubtless the road transport lobby has been making much of the above debacles in the rail industry within the new office and with the Secretary of State for transport. Of course what has happened with West Coast Railways has had a huge influence on thinking in regard to rail and future investment in it especially when it has been wasted in the way that it has been.

Amigacooke, to take your analogy in regard to The veteran London to Brighton car run Further, you do not get problems with veteran vehicles running on Britain's motorways. Also, having worked in the road transport industry virtually all my working life I would have to say never underestimate the power of the road transport lobby in the UK, so never give them ammunition to work with.

Anyway, it is Saturday night so back to the football forum for me
Bill

 

[johnwhelan]

If people worked locally, or moved to where they managed to obtain work in their highly paid careers, they would put less stress on our railways & roads, therefore
saving the taxpayer from having to invest so much cash into the systems.
They would also be better off, due to not having to pay the exhorbitant rail ticket & petrol prices.

Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way. If one company sets up shop then smaller companies arrive to support it. Fish and chip shops so that women can work etc. Once one company has set up then it becomes easier for a second company to set up. The service industries it needs are already there.

The term for this is called clustering. The banks cluster in London, one reason is people go to London to complex banking, if one bank can't service them the one next door can. The problem with clustering is that it leads to places such as London and it has side effects. For example air quality in London and today more people are killed by air pollution from traffic than car accidents. One of the worst problems is diesel emissions, the size of the particles emitted is particularly troublesome.

If we can move traffic off the highways and onto electric rail this is good, especially the trucks. There is a problem in the UK of capacity on the rail system, one solution might be to upgrade the system to allow double stacked containers and double height carriages. There is certainly the demand for service, both from existing rail companies and heritage steam systems and no one is going to suggest that land can be brought up cheaply to put in new lines.

It sounds expensive, tax payers money, so what the cost of doing nothing is much higher. I lived in the industrial north in my childhood, my lungs have never recovered fully from the smoke from the cotton mill a hundred yards down the road. Polluter pays? Too many people have died, they weren't important, certainly not enough to spend tax payers money. Oh they were tax payers as well? Never mind we don't have to pay their pensions. The life expectancy in the north is still well below the south.

The UK needs to expand the rail network to be able to run both passenger and freight, it needs to take a look at the cost of health and safety where it seems private companies can make a fortune by writing reports. More deaths would be prevented and the quality of life for many would be improved by spending the money on reducing pollution than writing more paper reports.

Cheerio John

 

[weevil]

I think we should also ban cyclists from using the public roads, not Mrs Brown peddling furiously to get to her job at the chip shop , but all those lycra clad ponces blocking up the roads for everyone else. We should also ban groups of walkers and riders on horseback. Come to think of it it might be an idea to ban people going out for a drive on a Sunday. Clearly if you're not using the road infrastructure to get to some gainful place of employment or transporting critical supplies you're part of the problem.

Stuart

P.S. John, my wife has somehow managed to get herself a job as a laboratory pharmacist. Do you think I should be worried? Maybe I should insist she looks for something in a chip shop?

 

[amigacooke]

All the above cost has come about because of a clown company wishing to play Choo Choo's on Britain's mainline rail infrastructure to the severe detriment of the industry and high cost to the taxpayer.

Except to the most cockeyed, it is obvious the problem is the company not the method of traction. Your prejudice is obvious for all to see.

A story of delay and frustrations from commuters, but oddly enough steam traction doesn't seem to be a factor

http://www.theargus.co.uk/business/14212984.Poor_train_service_fuels_MPs__fury_at_rail_summit/

 

[johnwhelan]

I think we should also ban cyclists from using the public roads, not Mrs Brown peddling furiously to get to her job at the chip shop , but all those lycra clad ponces blocking up the roads for everyone else. We should also ban groups of walkers and riders on horseback. Come to think of it it might be an idea to ban people going out for a drive on a Sunday. Clearly if you're not using the road infrastructure to get to some gainful place of employment or transporting critical supplies you're part of the problem.

Stuart

P.S. John, my wife has somehow managed to get herself a job as a laboratory pharmacist. Do you think I should be worried? Maybe I should insist she looks for something in a chip shop?

I can make out a stong case for banning cows based on global warming and methane. Horses I'd need to do some more research but given enough money I could make a case out either way. Locally some of our paths now have a speed limit of 25km/h to protect pedestrians who share the paths through parkland.

It does seem to be the case that old fogies wanting to go shopping get blamed for the lack of seats during rush hour, depends on your definiton of critical supplies.

I have a degree in Chemistry, in 1971 the average life expectancy of an industrial chemist was 55. I drifted off into computers shortly after I found that out. Well over 10% of my class have now died by the way, and those are the ones I know about.

Now what was the question again about your wife's work? I'm sure with the new health and safety regulations.....

Cheerio John

 

[wholbr]

Except to the most cockeyed, it is obvious the problem is the company not the method of traction. Your prejudice is obvious for all to see.

A story of delay and frustrations from commuters, but oddly enough steam traction doesn't seem to be a factor

http://www.theargus.co.uk/business/14212984.Poor_train_service_fuels_MPs__fury_at_rail_summit/

Amigacooke, How can you believe I am biased when I have never stated that Heritage consists should be completely banned from the UK network anywhere in this thread. what I do believe is that they should be restricted from operating on Britain's main Lines. in the foregoing I would include the West Coast Mainline, Great Western Mainline And East Coast Mainline along with the main commuter routes especially in the southeast (by example Portsmouth to London etc).

When the initial ban on west Coast Railways was imposed in March last year following the Wootton Bassett spad which happened on the Great Western mainline, it was suggested by the train operating company First Great Western that they would be prepared to take over heritage operations in the west of England.

They suggested that the branch Lines into Looe, Newquay and St Ives would be excellent venues to operate these services which would be crewed by their own employees following training. For some reason the foregoing seems to have gone off the agenda of first Great Western, but their statement was widely reported at the time by the local Media and met with a good reception.

In the above I would certainly subscribe to as it would without doubt increase tourism in Cornwall and thereby employment in this beautiful but the deprived county.I would even go further than just letting them operate on the branch lines. The whole railway Infrastructure to the west of Plymouth gets far less usage than the rest of the Great Western region and therefore that section could have scheduled heritage services running on them throughout the whole year.

I believe that other areas could also benefit from a Similar arrangement (by example North Wales) another deprived area which already has the ffestiniog narrow gauge railway which would benefit from other heritage services feeding into it which would be a steam nerds dream.

I believe it has to be recognised that heritage services operating on on the UK's mainlines I outlined in the first paragraph have brought forward performance and safety problems when operating within the tight service parameters necessary for operation on those lines. The above plan originally outline by first Great Western would solve those problems and benefit the employment and commercial problems of some of Britain's most deprived regions.

Bill.

 

[wholbr]

The UK needs to expand the rail network to be able to run both passenger and freight, it needs to take a look at the cost of health and safety where it seems private companies can make a fortune by writing reports. More deaths would be prevented and the quality of life for many would be improved by spending the money on reducing pollution than writing more paper reports.

Cheerio John

John, As regards industrial safety, the legislation surrounding it has not changed since 1975 which in the period since that time has brought about an 80% reduction in workplace accidents, and that on the back of a continually growing workforce . However, what has changed in that period is the “claims culture” that now infests so many developed Western societies.

I would be the first to agree that industrial safety is now continually saturated with myself and many others producing reports and other documents and working very long hours in the process. The problem is that if any report is not documented down to the last detail then some smart ass claim solicitor will take that document apart in any court hearing.

By example, When I first started out in industrial safety in 1985, a risk assessment normally ran to no more than two to three pages. Today, the average risk assessment in the road transport industry normally runs eight to twelve pages. Much of that paperwork is nothing more than stating the bl***ing obvious. However. if it is not in their then “look out for disaster if anything happens”.

Employers now spend huge amounts of money on securing workplace safety. Very often their own safety representatives will bring in the safety regime for a Distribution centre or other such workplace. It usually progresses that my company are then called in as an independent outside body to carry out a safety audit which attempts to find any flaws in that safety regime which could put the company at risk of a claim.

Here in the UK in 1975 the Health and Safety at Work Act brought forward a wonderful piece of legislation and it still is. What has changed is the world and mindset that surrounds it which is costing all of us in all walks of life an absolute fortune.

in the above I only speak of industrial safety and not public safety legislation such as the organisation of events etc. That my company has never involved itself in as it is an even a larger minefield.

Sorry to be off Topic everybody, but just thought I would advise John to the best of my ability and experience. Now back to the choo choos

Bill

 

[BLACKWATCH]

Now back to the choo choos

Bill

Don't forget the deedahs, there are a lot of old heritage diesels out there, they also "clog up the lines for commuters". :wave:

 

[johnwhelan]

John, As regards industrial safety, the legislation surrounding it has not changed since 1975 which in the period since that time has brought about an 80% reduction in workplace accidents, and that on the back of a continually growing workforce . However, what has changed in that period is the “claims culture” that now infests so many developed Western societies.

I would be the first to agree that industrial safety is now continually saturated with myself and many others producing reports and other documents and working very long hours in the process. The problem is that if any report is not documented down to the last detail then some smart ass claim solicitor will take that document apart in any court hearing.

By example, When I first started out in industrial safety in 1985, a risk assessment normally ran to no more than two to three pages. Today, the average risk assessment in the road transport industry normally runs eight to twelve pages. Much of that paperwork is nothing more than stating the bl***ing obvious. However. if it is not in their then “look out for disaster if anything happens”.

Employers now spend huge amounts of money on securing workplace safety. Very often their own safety representatives will bring in the safety regime for a Distribution centre or other such workplace. It usually progresses that my company are then called in as an independent outside body to carry out a safety audit which attempts to find any flaws in that safety regime which could put the company at risk of a claim.

Here in the UK in 1975 the Health and Safety at Work Act brought forward a wonderful piece of legislation and it still is. What has changed is the world and mindset that surrounds it which is costing all of us in all walks of life an absolute fortune.

in the above I only speak of industrial safety and not public safety legislation such as the organisation of events etc. That my company has never involved itself in as it is an even a larger minefield.

Sorry to be off Topic everybody, but just thought I would advise John to the best of my ability and experience. Now back to the choo choos

Bill

But the point is diminishing returns, currently air pollution from vehicles kills and causes far more injury than accidents do, yet very little is done to reduce this in any meaningful way.

From a tax payer’s point of view thirty years of health care before dying of emphysema is expensive, never mind the quality of life issues for the individual. I know half a dozen motorcylists who managed to kill themselves and I always thought they were the lucky ones, I’ve seen a broken femur mean two years in hospital.

Railway connection - we need more traffic on the rails and off the roads unless its electric trucks.

Cheerio John

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.

But the point is diminishing returns, currently air pollution from vehicles kills and causes far more injury than accidents do, yet very little is done to reduce this in any meaningful way.

From a tax payer’s point of view thirty years of health care before dying of emphysema is expensive, never mind the quality of life issues for the individual. I know half a dozen motorcylists who managed to kill themselves and I always thought they were the lucky ones, I’ve seen a broken femur mean two years in hospital.

Railway connection - we need more traffic on the rails and off the roads unless its electric trucks.

Cheerio John

We will in the period that can be foreseen need trucks for delivery especially in town and city centres. Electric only powered, not out their at the moment as far as I am aware, but hybrid ( Diesel + electric) are being developed. They will use only electric power in towns but use diesel to charge the batteries out of towns in country areas. However, I have only seen them up to seven and a Half ton at present.

Bill

 

[wholbr]

Hi BLACKWATCH and Everybody.

Don't forget the deedahs, there are a lot of old heritage diesels out there, they also "clog up the lines for commuters". :wave:

Now you are talking BLACKWATCH. I love the old diesels, they are much better than those old smokey steamy things that go choo-choo. If my train up to London on on Tuesday is delayed by a good old heritage diesel I will not complain as i will put my head out the window and revel in those wonderful diesel fumes, aaahh the aroma of it.

I will complain if it is held up by one of those funny engines that go choo-choo, chuf-chuf as they are dirty smelly things that should not be on the mainline. Ban them I say ban them :hehe:

Bill