Hi guys, I guess this is a UK thing, I am hoping a UK railway guru can put me right. When up is north and down is south that does not work on these railways. Am I right in supposing that someone took the decision to make London the zenith point in Britain? Therefore creating havoc to any one who has ever read a map? I stand totally open to suggestion! Best Wishes.
Up line, Down Line?
- Thread starter Zapata935
- Start date
JackClare1995
Member
"Up" is generally considered to be towards London, with "Down" being away from London. However, in the case of regional lines not travelling into London, a train travelling away from a major station is considered Down and towards a major station is Up. For example, a train travelling between Manchester Piccadilly and Leeds will be considered Down as it leaves Manchester Piccadilly until around Huddersfield, and will then change to an Up train on the approach to Leeds 
It's not a widespread thing for the general public to know, though. Hope that helped
Edit: The train could even be considered as Up into Huddersfield and Down out of Huddersfield, changing again to an Up train into Leeds
Jack
It's not a widespread thing for the general public to know, though. Hope that helped
Edit: The train could even be considered as Up into Huddersfield and Down out of Huddersfield, changing again to an Up train into Leeds
Jack
JackClare1995
Member
Hi there
I think I may have got it wrong last night, confusing Up and Down trains with Up and Down lines.
The "Up" is referring to a train travelling towards its base, and a "Down" is referring to a train travelling away from its base.
An "Up" line is one which heads into a major station, and a "Down" line is one which heads away from a major station.
So a train travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds, based in Manchester Piccadilly, would be a down train travelling on down lines out of Manchester and then travelling on up lines into Leeds (but it's still a down train as it's heading away from its base, Manchester)
God, I'm terrible at explaining things, I do apologise
:hehe:
Jack
I think I may have got it wrong last night, confusing Up and Down trains with Up and Down lines.
The "Up" is referring to a train travelling towards its base, and a "Down" is referring to a train travelling away from its base.
An "Up" line is one which heads into a major station, and a "Down" line is one which heads away from a major station.
So a train travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds, based in Manchester Piccadilly, would be a down train travelling on down lines out of Manchester and then travelling on up lines into Leeds (but it's still a down train as it's heading away from its base, Manchester)
God, I'm terrible at explaining things, I do apologise
:hehe:Jack
As a general rule of thumb, in England, any line running towards London is referred to as the 'up' line. In Scotland, any line running towards Edinburgh is the 'up' line (with the exception of the WCML and ECML where the 'up' line is towards London).
There are some regional exceptions but this is the simplest way of explaining it.
There are some regional exceptions but this is the simplest way of explaining it.
ray_whiley
Active member
On a branch line in the UK, up would be towards the junction with the main line, down from that junction to the terminus.
For example, the West Norfolk Railway (GER) was a branch from the King's Lynn to Hunstanton line from a junction at Heacham. In the working timetable, trains from Heacham to Wells were down, those from Wells to Heacham up. On the KL to H, trains to KL were up, trains to H were down. From KL, trains to London were up, trains from London were down.
On the WNR, single platform stations were on the down side if they were on the left of trains travelling to Wells. Platforms on the left side of trains travelling to Heacham were on the up side.
Ray
For example, the West Norfolk Railway (GER) was a branch from the King's Lynn to Hunstanton line from a junction at Heacham. In the working timetable, trains from Heacham to Wells were down, those from Wells to Heacham up. On the KL to H, trains to KL were up, trains to H were down. From KL, trains to London were up, trains from London were down.
On the WNR, single platform stations were on the down side if they were on the left of trains travelling to Wells. Platforms on the left side of trains travelling to Heacham were on the up side.
Ray
mezzoprezzo
Content appreciator
Grand Old "Duke of York" is confused.
.
When they were only half way up, they were neither up nor down!
Check out this Fowler.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23689245@N08/9320657949/
.
When they were only half way up, they were neither up nor down!
Check out this Fowler.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23689245@N08/9320657949/
PortlandBill
Member
Up and Down refer to the Working timetable. Down trains are listed DOWN the page from the principal station to the last destination station. Up trains go opposite to down trains. So London to Glasgow trains would go down to Glasgow and Up to London. Sheffield to Manchester trains go down from Sheffield and Up to Manchester.
Holy Shemoly, I would be completely bamboozeled by all this up and down nonsense as a driver! if I turned up at a MPD and was told to drive a train, from and to, that is all the information you would need. Is this not an early case of Victorian political correctness, gone wrong! By the way if I had a choice of train stations as the zenith point in the UK, it would be Thurso, can't get more up than that! Best Wishes.
stagecoach
75377
United Kingdom[edit source]
In British practice, railway directions are usually described as up and down, with up being towards a major location. This convention is applied not only to the trains and the tracks, but also to items of lineside equipment and to areas near a track. Since British trains run on the left, the up side of a line is on the left when proceeding in the up direction. The names originate from the early railways, where trains would run up the hills to the mines, and down to the ports.
On most of the network, up is the direction towards London. In most of Scotland, with the exception of the West and East Coast Main Lines, up is towards Edinburgh. The Valley Lines network around Cardiff has its own peculiar usage, relating to the original meaning of traveling up and down the valley. On the former Midland Railway up was towards Derby. Mileposts normally increase in the down direction
On the London Underground geographic direction naming generally prevails (e.g. Eastbound, Westbound), except for the Circle Line where the directions are often referred to as clockwise and anticlockwise.
Individual tracks will have their own names, such as Up Main or Down Loop. Trains running towards London are normally referred to as Up trains, and those away from London as Down. Hence the Down Night Riviera runs to Penzance and the Up Flying Scotsman to Kings Cross.
Other directions commonly used are London and Country. The London end of a station is the end where trains to London depart. The country end is the opposite end, where trains to the country depart. This usage is problematic where more than one route to London exists (e.g. at Exeter St Davids).
see also
http://railway-technical.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/why-up-and-down.html
In British practice, railway directions are usually described as up and down, with up being towards a major location. This convention is applied not only to the trains and the tracks, but also to items of lineside equipment and to areas near a track. Since British trains run on the left, the up side of a line is on the left when proceeding in the up direction. The names originate from the early railways, where trains would run up the hills to the mines, and down to the ports.
On most of the network, up is the direction towards London. In most of Scotland, with the exception of the West and East Coast Main Lines, up is towards Edinburgh. The Valley Lines network around Cardiff has its own peculiar usage, relating to the original meaning of traveling up and down the valley. On the former Midland Railway up was towards Derby. Mileposts normally increase in the down direction
On the London Underground geographic direction naming generally prevails (e.g. Eastbound, Westbound), except for the Circle Line where the directions are often referred to as clockwise and anticlockwise.
Individual tracks will have their own names, such as Up Main or Down Loop. Trains running towards London are normally referred to as Up trains, and those away from London as Down. Hence the Down Night Riviera runs to Penzance and the Up Flying Scotsman to Kings Cross.
Other directions commonly used are London and Country. The London end of a station is the end where trains to London depart. The country end is the opposite end, where trains to the country depart. This usage is problematic where more than one route to London exists (e.g. at Exeter St Davids).
see also
http://railway-technical.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/why-up-and-down.html
In the Boston area our MBTA uses inbound and outbound to designate trains going towards Boston on the commuter lines and those going towards downtown on the transit lines. I used that designation on my fictional Gloucester Terminal passenger service. It works okay until you go around a loop and what was an inbound station becomes outbound or vice versa and that can get a bit confusing.
John
John
Up = Towards Hub/Terminus/Major Station
Down = away from hub/terminus/major station. Outbound basically
In Victoria Australia, a train that is traveling towards Melbourne/Spencer St Station/Southern Cross Station/Flinders St Station = Up
A train traveling away from Melbourne/Spencer St Station/Southern Cross Station/Flinders St Station = down
Jamie
Down = away from hub/terminus/major station. Outbound basically
In Victoria Australia, a train that is traveling towards Melbourne/Spencer St Station/Southern Cross Station/Flinders St Station = Up
A train traveling away from Melbourne/Spencer St Station/Southern Cross Station/Flinders St Station = down
Jamie
Hi everyone.
As Ray Whiley already has seen my work I am currently modelling the former 7.8 mile GER branch between the Fenland towns of March and Wisbech on my copy of Trainz2012. Until 1972, four years after the prototype was closed to passenger services, the line was originally double track and the 'Up' and 'Down' terminology was used frequently by BR staff working trains along the line. The 'Down' left-side rails ran north from March to Wisbech, with the 'Up' right-side rails ran from Wisbech back to March. In 1972 however, the line was singled after passenger withdrawal and the loss of Wisbech East Station (on Victoria Road) with the lifting of the 'Down' track to Wisbech and the former 'Up' line was then re-signalled for bi-directional use as daily freight services were still running.
The terminology is no longer used now as Network Rail re-classified the branch to Wisbech as an extended siding, following the ending of the daily freight in 2000 and the branch finally closing to all traffic in 2003 due to the poor condition it is now in.
Railfuture UK is petitioning to get the branch re-opened to commuter services along with a new station built at Wisbech. The former station site is now covered by a modern housing estate - 'Larksfield' along Victoria Road.
Many regards to all.
Andy (who travelled on the last passenger train from Wisbech in July 1984.. an WAMRAC/RDS Wisbech-York-Scarborough special excursion)
As Ray Whiley already has seen my work I am currently modelling the former 7.8 mile GER branch between the Fenland towns of March and Wisbech on my copy of Trainz2012. Until 1972, four years after the prototype was closed to passenger services, the line was originally double track and the 'Up' and 'Down' terminology was used frequently by BR staff working trains along the line. The 'Down' left-side rails ran north from March to Wisbech, with the 'Up' right-side rails ran from Wisbech back to March. In 1972 however, the line was singled after passenger withdrawal and the loss of Wisbech East Station (on Victoria Road) with the lifting of the 'Down' track to Wisbech and the former 'Up' line was then re-signalled for bi-directional use as daily freight services were still running.
The terminology is no longer used now as Network Rail re-classified the branch to Wisbech as an extended siding, following the ending of the daily freight in 2000 and the branch finally closing to all traffic in 2003 due to the poor condition it is now in.
Railfuture UK is petitioning to get the branch re-opened to commuter services along with a new station built at Wisbech. The former station site is now covered by a modern housing estate - 'Larksfield' along Victoria Road.
Many regards to all.
Andy (who travelled on the last passenger train from Wisbech in July 1984.. an WAMRAC/RDS Wisbech-York-Scarborough special excursion)
Wisbech Branch - Network Rail PDF (Large images 718x989)
* Bump. Taken the Network Rail PDF images off here, resized them down to the usual 800x600 and posted them instead to my own forum thread 'Wisbech Line WIP'
** This is one of my railway books I'm using to recreate the former railway to my home town.
* Bump. Taken the Network Rail PDF images off here, resized them down to the usual 800x600 and posted them instead to my own forum thread 'Wisbech Line WIP'
** This is one of my railway books I'm using to recreate the former railway to my home town.
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mezzoprezzo
Content appreciator
Looks like only the one railway line on the Wisbech book front cover image.
Much simpler.
I guess there was no need for a definition of Up line/Down line in the old days of single tracks between stations.
Could there have been a definition of Up train or Down train when the token was exchanged?
Much simpler.
I guess there was no need for a definition of Up line/Down line in the old days of single tracks between stations.
Could there have been a definition of Up train or Down train when the token was exchanged?
Yep. Front cover of the book is of course the 1883-1966 Wisbech & Upwell Tramway which ran road and canal side for about 5 miles from Wisbech East to the Norfolk villages of Outwell and Upwell. I've been trying to obtain the tram engine itself from the DLS but for some reason it won't properly commit to my CM as one of the tram dependencies decides to show as faulty.
Other railways featured in the book include the 1866-1959/1964 M&GN branch from Peterborough to Sutton Bridge via Wisbech North Station (formerly on Harecroft Road); the M&GN Quay Harbour branch from Wisbech North Goods Yard (Leverington Road) to a terminus in the Old Market; the W&U Tramway; and the 1866-1966 GER Harbour Branch running from Wisbech East Station to the Port of Wisbech (part of this branch ran along the eastern side of Wisbech Town Park).
Wisbech ' Capital of the Fens', although just a small market town in North-East Cambridgeshire and which straddles the county of Norfolk, once boasted two important and busy railway branch lines and two short harbour branch lines (GER & M&GNR), on either side of the River Nene.
* Wisbech, as most people may not know this, has a working port on the tidal River Nene and is capable of accepting medium-sized ships off-loading either brick or timber cargo (with the timber coming from Scandinavia or from Russia) - Wisbech Port generally receives one ship a week.
Andy
Other railways featured in the book include the 1866-1959/1964 M&GN branch from Peterborough to Sutton Bridge via Wisbech North Station (formerly on Harecroft Road); the M&GN Quay Harbour branch from Wisbech North Goods Yard (Leverington Road) to a terminus in the Old Market; the W&U Tramway; and the 1866-1966 GER Harbour Branch running from Wisbech East Station to the Port of Wisbech (part of this branch ran along the eastern side of Wisbech Town Park).
Wisbech ' Capital of the Fens', although just a small market town in North-East Cambridgeshire and which straddles the county of Norfolk, once boasted two important and busy railway branch lines and two short harbour branch lines (GER & M&GNR), on either side of the River Nene.
* Wisbech, as most people may not know this, has a working port on the tidal River Nene and is capable of accepting medium-sized ships off-loading either brick or timber cargo (with the timber coming from Scandinavia or from Russia) - Wisbech Port generally receives one ship a week.
Andy
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G'day mezzopresso,
...even so, Sir, on single lines of railway common practise was to refer to trains running away from the aforementioned major terminus to be called "Down" trains, whilst those returning in the opposite direction 'remained' "Up" trains...
Jerker {}
...even so, Sir, on single lines of railway common practise was to refer to trains running away from the aforementioned major terminus to be called "Down" trains, whilst those returning in the opposite direction 'remained' "Up" trains...
Jerker {
}
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G'day Zapata935,
...as far as drivers are concerned, there is NEVER any confusion. As a former driver of some 25 years standing (well most of them sitting - to tell the truth), I can tell you that drivers are not paid for what they 'physically' do - they are paid for what they are trained to KNOW and they just "know" in which direction they are travelling...
Jerker {}
...as far as drivers are concerned, there is NEVER any confusion. As a former driver of some 25 years standing (well most of them sitting - to tell the truth), I can tell you that drivers are not paid for what they 'physically' do - they are paid for what they are trained to KNOW and they just "know" in which direction they are travelling...
Jerker {
}