TS12 SP1 HF4 - Is it worth upgrading?

[ThePoliceman009]

Hello there.

I currently have Trainz 12 Build 49922. As you have seen, I have been quite hesitant over TS12 SP1, as my current signature states. However, with support for earlier versions being dropped by N3V and (soon to be) JointedRail, content is starting to be released for SP1 only, I have been thinking of upgrading. Problem is, I'm not quite sure if it would be worth it, considering all of the hate towards it, and the bugs associated with it. Now before you go on and say "no stay with sp0" or "you should upgrade", I want to know the reasons why I should upgrade or not.

As for what I have, I currently have some Jointed Rail locomotives bought from SimulatorCentral (sigh), and I've been hearing reports that they become built-in content once you update. Is that true? Because it would be a pain in the *** if that were to happen. I also have a TON of content (100,000+) that I can't delete otherwise it might affect an asset or route in some shape or form. Most of the content is from earlier versions (TS2009 and earlier).

So, I want your answer. Is SP1 worth getting, is it a bunch of baloney, or should I just wait for Trainz ANE?

 

[pware]

From your tag line it looks like you have already made up your mind so you would not be swayed by any opinions that disagreed with that! So I will concentrate on some of the claims in your post.

... considering all of the hate towards it, and the bugs associated with it.

Every new version or upgrade of Trainz has generated heat and "hate mail" and that includes Trainz 12 SP0 - there are those who considered it to be inferior to TS10 or TS09. According to some, every new release since Trainz 2004 was a step backwards. These people are far more likely to complain and post rants on the forums that those who, like myself, had no problems.

I want to know the reasons why I should upgrade or not. ... or should I just wait for Trainz ANE?

In your case do not upgrade. Why? You will clearly be unhappy with anything other that your current set up. As for T:ANE, forget it - the better graphics, better physics, additional features and experiences, all of which promises to make most of your current setup look like cr@p, will make you even more miserable. Stay with what you have and know, always avoid the future!

 

[RRSignal]

Here's hopefully more a helpful answer. Based on what I can tell (esp. based on your sig) then there is no point in upgrading. Even that aside, it's probably not worth it at this point: T:ANE will be out in a few months. No point in breaking what's working fine. You might find that, even after T:ANE comes out, you may want to stick with what you have for awhile, in the case of the inevitable teething pains and also the fact that there just isn't a whole lot of content that can take full advantage of it yet.

Bear in mind that the support being dropped has nothing whatsoever to do with your version or service pack. TS12 is good for another two years and then that ends, regardless of what version you are at. By then, the content may or may not have caught up for T:ANE although, of course, hopefully it will have.

Edit: Keep in mind that you can have a SP1/HF4 installation as well as your current, existing one, and migrate at a later date. I doubt there is much point in doing so, especially if you've been buying your content through the SimCentral store - you probably won't be very happy. And, moving content between multiple installations can be time-consuming and annoying. But, it's an option, in any case.

 

[pware]

Here's a helpful answer

Ah, RRSignal, you have spoiled all the fun!

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi

Why not leave your current installation as it is and make a second installation that you can patch up to SP1. That way you can try it out without risking any of your current content.

As to whether it is worth doing, only you can answer that as everybodys opinion will differ in some way. Personally I have had few issues with SP1 once I got used to it.

Regards

Brian

 

[clam1952]

I did the same as Brian, kept a 49922 install and did a clean install and patches to 61388 Sp1 HF4, actually I have two, one with the DLC and one without. Not had any major problems with either of them, that may be due to the fact I do not have any faulty content. What I can't fix, which isn't much gets binned.

 

[ryanstrains]

I would say make a second install for SP1 and figure out what does and doesn't work so if/when you upgrade to TANE, there will be much less of a headache if you do need to repair some content.

 

[Falcus]

I remember one person on this forum already "Upgrading" to Build 61388, and an hour later his next post was "Ooop! Lost too much content, reverting now, be off for a day or two"...... Seriously, unless you're willing to give things a chance, maybe figure out *why* its different or *what* the specific issues are, and do it with an open mind, just stick with what you have...... There were, and still are, alot of little issues when you upgrade from 49922 to 61388... Just the way it is. But some of them are so SIMPLE to fix its ridiculous, but if you don't take the time to figure that out, or just assume its not worth your time, you'll still be stuck where you are anyway.....

That said, I applaud your opening your mind at least enough to ask.... Still, you might get better reception if you didn't couch everything with an attitude that didn't scream "God I really don't want to do this".....

Personally, I've been on 61388 since release. Most "Broken" Content is easily repairable (Like 5 minutes or less for the more complicated things, 2 seconds for alot, and there are tools available to make this cake). There are some things that are gone forever from a 61388 install, but not much that I've found.

Bugs? What bugs? Please list any concerns you have about 61388 Bugs, and Im sure many here will be happy to address them..... I personally know of NO bugs that are specific to 61388 (Not that I KNOW none exist, but I don't currently KNOW of any). I will say that in my experience the CM and TADDAEMON are far more stable in 61388 then they ever were for me in the previous builds or games....

Finally, I personally couldn't be bothered to keep multiple installs. I'd only do it if I was a content creator and I wanted to make sure that content would run in multiple versions.... I have enough trouble tracking down assets once, much less making sure more then one DB is up to date..... Not to mention Disk Space. I already have a 1TB Drive dedicated to my current install, and I have neither the money nor the inclination to get another.....

You're going to do what you want to do, regardless, but good luck anyway,
Falcus

 

[trainz321]

or try making a restore point on your comp. then install the update. if you hate it go back to the restore point easy as that.

~zack

 

[ThePoliceman009]

Alright, well, I can't really do a second install due to the size of my disk, however, the replies here seem to be positive. Maybe when my disk gets cleared up then I can do a second install and see how it goes.

I'm just worried that the DRM is going to make some of the content I have restricted. I sometimes change out horn sounds on locomotives and seeing as I bought some from Simulator Central, that's going to be a problem. And since I have a TON of content in my game (last time I checked it exceeded 150GB !!! ) it could take a loooooong time to fix all of the faulty content.

 

[pware]

<Serious Mode ON>

My understanding of the DRM issue is that it only applies to content from the Trainz DLC. I have Murcheson 2, Settle and Carlisle, Blue Comet, some VR wagons and D Class locos; from the DLC and have had no problems with using or access any of them. I do not have an JR content so cannot give advice or the benefit of any experience there. I have never attempted to alter any of the DLC assets anyway.

While a second install would be a possible solution, like Falcus, I tend to agree that it would only be of use to a content creator.

 

[Vern]

I have gone several times in the last few months from 49922 to 61388, regretted it, uninstalled (often with the loss of WIP) then reinstalled back to 49922.

Main reason? The ghastly mess of CMP 3.7 which freezes at the slightest misplaced mouse click and, despite what the N3V cheerleaders might say, does not suddenly start working again after a few minutes or a few hours.
Secondary - other factors are the inability in Surveyor to trim surplus tiles from a "God" view to check what you're doing, severe difficulty in deleting rulers etc.

Disadvantages in staying with 49922:-
There are already some TS12 assets on the DLS which have been created or upgraded and only work in 61388. In addition some assets which work okay in 49922 show up red in 61388 so there's a danger when you come to run your route in 61388 it might not load everything, or work at all.
To ensure maximum forward compatibility into T:ANE, it's therefore probably best to create routes at least in the latest version of TS12 rather than the older one.

Even when T:ANE does emerge, be it December or if the release over-runs into January/February there are still going to be people working in TS12. My advice would therefore be, if you're using Trainz purely for driving or your use of the DLS and CMP is fairly limited, probably worth upgrading to 61388. Likewise if you want your routes to have maximum compatibility in TS12 and going forward, you need to eliminate assets which are going to appear red in 61388. However if you're a DLS or CMP addict, then it might be worth sticking with 49922, at least for now.

 

[pware]

The ghastly mess of CMP 3.7 which freezes at the slightest misplaced mouse click and, despite what the N3V cheerleaders might say, does not suddenly start working again after a few minutes or a few hours.

Vern, I must be one of the N3V cheerleaders because I have never had that problem.

... other factors are the inability in Surveyor to trim surplus tiles from a "God" view to check what you're doing, severe difficulty in deleting rulers etc.

I don't know what you mean by your first point (the surplus tiles in "God" view) but I did experience the ruler issue until either the SP1 or the HF4 update - since then it has not been an issue.

 

[pfx]

I had delayed installing TS12 SP1 but after buying a new drive, decided there was no harm in doing the installation totally seperately of my existing TS12. So far, I have been fortunate enough not to encounter any problems and everything seems to work fine (touch wood). I've downloaded a massive amount of assets via CM. Otherwise, I haven't made much use of it thus far so my opinion may change at a later date.

 

[Vern]

I don't know what you mean by your first point (the surplus tiles in "God" view) but I did experience the ruler issue until either the SP1 or the HF4 update - since then it has not been an issue

Deleting unwanted "tiles" (or baseboards if you prefer)... In 49922 you can zoom the view right out to an overview of the whole route, RMB click to centre on a tile and then from the terrain menu delete it. In SP1 HF4 you can only delete at the normal working height for placement etc. Not a jobstopper, true but less convenient certainly.

The other right PITA in going from 49922 to 61388 (actually I'm doing it now against my better judgement) is the time it takes, with 49922 >> 57720 and 58414 >>> 61388 breaking down and rebuilding all the ja files in the Built-In folder.

 

[boleyd]

I did not know that 61388 was the nasty thing that forced you to the closer view to delete things. That really is a pain.

I have no problems I can blame on the 61388 release otherwise. I am grabbing DLS stuff all the time with no issues. The Content Manager runs the best of any so far. I have seen where more than one person continues to have CMP issues. Since it is just a big database N3V probably uses Microsoft products to manage it. There may lay some of the problems with broken or out-dated Microsoft stuff. I was having some grief on other things and I found that my Ownership settings had changed, blocking access to a few things. Even now, if I load a new program, I sometime have to go in and change the access permissions. Trainz 61388 upgrade was hit with this. Fortunately had seen it enough to fix it.

 

[22alpha]

If it helps I didn't actually go through the patching process which seems to be where all the not-so-fun stuff is happening. I just grabbed my userdata folder and moved that someplace safe. I removed the old TS12, complete uninstall and then I just installed the 61388 build direct. Once it was in I moved my userdata folder back and did an EDR. I was back up and running within an hour or two.

Mike

* Also I keep TRS on it's own SSD drive. Certainly makes things easier when it comes to moving/upgrading/backing up etc.

 

[RRSignal]

That's basically how I patch these days. It's fast and if the patch glitches, it's little time lost and little time to repeat the process.

 

[Falcus]

Alright, well, I can't really do a second install due to the size of my disk, however, the replies here seem to be positive. Maybe when my disk gets cleared up then I can do a second install and see how it goes.

I'm just worried that the DRM is going to make some of the content I have restricted. I sometimes change out horn sounds on locomotives and seeing as I bought some from Simulator Central, that's going to be a problem. And since I have a TON of content in my game (last time I checked it exceeded 150GB !!! ) it could take a loooooong time to fix all of the faulty content.

Actually N3V In all of its infinite wisdom, WILL Keep DRM content Current with their latest Build.... You're more likely to lose out on it on older builds at some point (Yes, even though the older versions don't do Mothership Checks the way 61388 does. All it would take would be for them to update the build Numbers on it in a few certain ways....). You don't sell $120 worth of DRM Content to someone that just plunked out $60 for you latest version, just or it to not work to the tune of "Sorry, that only works with the previous version".... N3V has a vested interest in keeping their DLContent working the way they want it to (Recent Server hiccups aside, *Glares @ Zec*).

Your installation is only 150MB? Nice, bet it loads up in less then a second.... Mines in the Triple Digits GBs (I let the indexing get up to 113GB before I took a screenshot and stopped it)..... I run CM3.7, and have no issues with it that I didn't have in other installs, except that I have far fewer of them.... I remember TRS'06 - "Open CM, go make a sammich, and come back in time for the Gear Kerchunk sound so you know its ready!" (And no, CM3.7 does not do this). CM3.7 has been nothing but an improvement in my experience. Can you Still Freeze it? Yes, particularly if you have a large TAD and you tell it to do too many things at once when your computer doesn't have enough RAM or Processor Power under the hood to deal with it. But for my part, I have it DLing off the DLS, Installing off FTP Black Pages, and installing 3rd party content (To the tune of up to 10 install windows open at a time) all at the same time. Now, keep in mind I'm running an i5 with 8GB Ram, so when either TAD, CM, or Trainz freezes or crashes, my computer doesnt even sneeze, just goes to Desktop and asks me if I'd like a drink with that..... From what I've seen, 80% of operational issues with CM and TAD, regardless of build, are due to a lack of *SYSTEM RESOURCES*, not the (Admittedly out of date, and cumbersome) programming that went into them. Alot of people that run this Simulator simply do not have enough Ram or Processor Power to accomodate the TADDaemon..... And you will have problems when you do that.....

After that, Follow Alpha22's advice about patching, I've never done it that way, but it makes sense to me. I'll have to remember that for TANE.

Falcus

 

[Vern]

One other advantage of 61388. The non-rail spline pullout has its own straighten tool, negating the need to keep popping next door to the track menu and borrowing that one.