TRS2010 vs. TRS2012?

[pdkoester]

End this silly debate, and get the trainz discussion back on track. You only need online for activation and downloading/uploading/purchasing. Once all that is done, it will work with the internet removed. IT WILL NOT stop working, it will not remove your DLC. Think about it. If I download from RRMods/JointedRail/etc. and install their content, it doesn't go away anytime the internet is not available. So....


Like I said, if you have older hardware, get TS2010, boxed version. Otherwise, TS12 (2012) if you want the latest with content that most creators are making things for, and higher details.

Paul

 

[RRSignal]

End this silly debate, and get the trainz discussion back on track. You only need online for activation and downloading/uploading/purchasing. Once all that is done, it will work with the internet removed. IT WILL NOT stop working, it will not remove your DLC. Think about it. If I download from RRMods/JointedRail/etc. and install their content, it doesn't go away anytime the internet is not available. So....l

That's NOT what Chris is saying. And "only" needing internet for activation (which Chris did NOT claim) is a big deal for those of us who don't have internet on our gaming computers. Not to mention those of us who want to be able to use our purchase down the road when N3V is yet another company or out of business. You might not care about flushing your money, but some of us do.

 

[rumour3]

My take on TS12 v TS10 is as follows. 12 sorted a few issues, and in particular problems with semi transparent objects not displaying correctly, that made it worth the upgrade. When first released, TS12 performed better than previous versions so I was happy enough to get rid of older versions and keep developing my main project in TS12 only. SP1 has been a bit of a rocky road for me- at first, it killed performance on my machine, and I suffered from the pop up and stutter problems discussed elsewhere. Hot fix 3 seems to have cured the pop up problems, to the point where I'm happy to start using it again, but I still feel that the program isn't running as smoothly as the pre SP1 install.

I don't buy much DLC but I must admit that I'm not keen on heavy handed DRM so I can understand at least some of RRSignal's concerns about the changes introduced through SP1. Anything that requires 'occasional' reactivation to keep using the product (DLC) makes me feel slightly uncomfortable. My personal view is that the new DRM system goes beyond what I think was appropriate for a Service Pack 'upgrade', and may have been better kept for a future paid-for release, with the rules set out before I choose to buy.

I've so far avoided buying alternatives, mostly because of having to sign up for Steam, ( I bought the original version of Rail Simulator but didn't like not being able to create stuff, and also didn't particularly like having to keep the disc in the drive).

I have freely given quite a few models to the Trainz community over the years, and I understand and respect the rights of creators to not have their work copied/adapted/ruined without permission, but I think that any system that requires periodic check in to prevent loss of use is a fairly major shift of the rules that goes beyond a service pack upgrade. As an iPad user, it smacks of the iOS 'upgrade' that took away Google maps.

I realise that N3V is entitled to take the product any way it wishes, and that, on balance, TS12 will probably turn out to be the best version so far- if the SP1 issues can finally be ironed out. My personal view is that N3V need to know the views of users about DRM systems, and that there is currently an opportunity to influence things to get a sensible balance.

Regards

R3

 

[haddock56]

I'll throw in my own two cents, having bought both Trainz 2010 and TS 2012. When I first bought Trainz 2010, I admittedly liked it a lot. Runs good, the graphics were great, still a provision for the older content that I know many people still like. When I bought Trainz 12, I have to admit I kinda fell for the Mojave Subdivision and a few of the included content that was a surprise to me. However a script error soon threw the whole game into a bit of a tailspin, and I was only half able to correct this. I have not run through any of the hotfixes (lost the game disk when I cleaned my room, must've thrown it away by mistake) so I cannot account for those upgrades. Bottom line: If you want a solid performance with minimal things acting up and don't mind editing those assets where the CMP does not recognize the Trainz build number (dl'ing a build 3.4 asset into CMP v3.2) then Trainz 2010 is a good choice. If you feel up to the challenge of Trainz 12, then go for it, just be prepared for a good challenge and a course in content fixing.

 

[WindWalkr]

"that's not to say it won't change in future."

Nobody, and I mean nobody, can say with certainly what will happen in the future. The best they can do is make predictions based on the knowledge available to them at the time.

When I purchased my DLC, I didn't need to connect to the internet AT ALL, not even for an occasional authorization. I wouldn't have bought it if it did. As I run Trainz strictly offline, how do I get around that?

You have two choices:

1. If you prefer things how they were previously, then don't patch.
2. Stop running Trainz strictly offline. For a long time now, being online has been the preferred usage scenario for Trainz. Many of our game features assume that you will have at least an intermittent, if not a permanent, internet connection.

kind regards,

chris

 

[WindWalkr]

Somebody who has to be hospitalised for an extended period (say 2 months) with no chance to connect to the internet .........

Would this person find that when they did get back on line, that continued use of in-game DLC would not be re-authorised ?

Of course not. They've paid for the content, why would it be taken it away?

chris

 

[WindWalkr]

(lost the game disk when I cleaned my room, must've thrown it away by mistake)

You have a registered serial number on your PA account so it might be worth chatting to helpdesk to see if anything can be done about this.

chris

 

[Lots_Trains]

Nobody, and I mean nobody, can say with certainly what will happen in the future. The best they can do is make predictions based on the knowledge available to them at the time.

Yeah but Chris you have stated many times on here, that you would prefer Trainz to be a sub scription thing, now you may not be the power that decides this, as it would probably already be in place, but its kinda inevtiable isn't it.


With the content locked up tighter than tight now, its a bit pointless buying stuff through N3V, I was looking at getting JR loco pack, but I want to run my own scripts in them not the ones supplied as I have whole lot of different requirements.
It just can't happen now can it, bit of pointless waste of money isn't it. Do you think JR are specially gonna mod loco for me I don't think so.


Another scenario for the future, if you go your favoured subscription route, and you company goes belly up. I have mega project I've been working on for 10 years on a Trainz platform the requires continual update from your servers, I guess my decade
of toil and work would be down the drain, do I really want to invest all my work in bet that you are going to keep your company alive, bit scary I think

My advice to anyone is u wanna do a mega project beware.

Cheers

Lots

 

[WindWalkr]

Yeah but Chris you have stated many times on here, that you would prefer Trainz to be a sub scription thing

Have I? I don't really remember saying that, though I don't specifically disagree. Reasonably priced subscription models tend to work well for both users and developers. It's an encouragement for the developer to keep users engaged, it typically means that everybody uses the same version of the game, and it means that the user can control how much they spend- if the game has less value to them than what they're spending, then they can stop playing. On the developer's side, it evens out cashflow and helps determine how much money is reasonable to commit at any given time. It encourages frequent releases to the customers, rather than occasional monolithic releases.

The main downside is that if the entire game is covered by a monthly subscription, someone who stops playing can't simply pick it up for a single day "for old times sake"- they need to commit to playing "seriously." Obviously you could consider a model where this isn't true, but the subscriptions that I've seen in the past have always been a per-month thing.

I must say that this makes more sense for games where community involvement is paramount. It makes less sense for play-through-once-then-put-away games. Trainz is possibly somewhere in between for most people.

I was looking at getting JR loco pack, but I want to run my own scripts in them not the ones supplied as I have whole lot of different requirements.
It just can't happen now can it, bit of pointless waste of money isn't it. Do you think JR are specially gonna mod loco for me I don't think so.

You do realise that you can build your own loco config that aliases their meshes, right? You can even legally redistribute it, as long as you're not copying significant portions of their files.

Another scenario for the future, if you go your favoured subscription route, and you company goes belly up. I have mega project I've been working on for 10 years on a Trainz platform the requires continual update from your servers, I guess my decade
of toil and work would be down the drain, do I really want to invest all my work in bet that you are going to keep your company alive, bit scary I think

My advice to anyone is u wanna do a mega project beware.

Or what about if we go the subscription route, and Trainz becomes ten times more popular, and suddenly your mega project has better graphics and massive user exposure and you become a rock god.

Or what about if we don't go the subscription route?


If we're pulling arbitrary futures out of a hat, these seem just as feasible as your suggestion?

chris

 

[pcas1986]

All I wanted to know was whether TRS2010 or 12 was better lol.

I still have TS04 installed - it reminds of how far we have come. I liked TS06 when it came out. I liked TS09 when it came out. I liked TS10 when it came out and I keep that one installed as well for testing my content. Its a good version, and if you went with it then I expect you would like it as well. Highly recommended.

But TS12 is also a great version and my preferred. Sure, the SP1 and the hot fixes have caused lots of problems but the major thing for me is that it demonstrates that N3V are committed to this product and so I fully expect future versions to be even better.

If you are unsure, just buy the TS10 version. And keep your TS04 as well.

Cheers

 

[Lots_Trains]

Have I? I don't really remember saying that,

You have said it a couple of times in the past my friend, way back, it stuck in my mind because I hated the idea.

You do realise that you can build your own loco config that aliases their meshes, right?

Nah didn't realise that. Still can't use them if you go belly up, mind you they are only gonna be stopgap use. But I'm only on TS10, don't like 12.

Or what about if we go the subscription route, and Trainz becomes ten times more popular, and suddenly your mega project has better graphics and massive user exposure and you become a rock god.

I just couldn't risk it if you went the subscription route, I'll be playing Trainz long after you go belly up. As for better graphics, it will always depend how much you break in the process or added features that ruin the game.


As for massive exposure, rock god, not interested in that stuff, I'm happy just playing my Trainz in my little hobbit hole, that kinda thing just dosn't do it for me, I'll never release my stuff.

Or what about if we don't go the subscription route?

Every release you don't is a release I would consider buying, it would depend on

1st on added features, if there is a must have feature I would consider it if not I'll stay where I am.

2nd on content accessabiltiy, if I decide I don't want the added features the only reason I would then buy it would be for content to pull back down to an earlier version, you can do that in 5 min, its not hard. If its locked up and or dependant
contact with your servers, no point, you have always got that belly up feature added.

Cheers

Lots

 

[NorfolkSouthern9708]

Alright so I think I'm buying TRS2010 tonight. Thanks guys!

 

[norfolksouthern37]

You do realise that you can build your own loco config that aliases their meshes, right? You can even legally redistribute it, as long as you're not copying significant portions of their files.

you'd better clarify this before there is a flood of JR payware being redistributed without permission. i disagree that its okay that anyone can use my meshes and re-distribute them on a whim.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

With the content locked up tighter than tight now, its a bit pointless buying stuff through N3V, I was looking at getting JR loco pack, but I want to run my own scripts in them not the ones supplied as I have whole lot of different requirements.
It just can't happen now can it, bit of pointless waste of money isn't it. Do you think JR are specially gonna mod loco for me I don't think so.

that depends on a lot of things.

 

[WindWalkr]

you'd better clarify this before there is a flood of JR payware being redistributed without permission. i disagree that its okay that anyone can use my meshes and re-distribute them on a whim.

I'm not really sure what you'd like me to clarify here?

* Redistribution of somebody else's content is illegal.
* Aliasing is legal.
* Redistributing of your own content which merely aliases somebody else's content is legal.

chris

 

[Lots_Trains]

you'd better clarify this before there is a flood of JR payware being redistributed without permission. i disagree that its okay that anyone can use my meshes and re-distribute them on a whim.

No one can distribute your content with this system you are safer than safe, you are on a win win, if I did a config and made a loco aliasing to your mesh, and put it onto the DLS the people who want to use it still have to buy your pack
with the mesh in it, you win more dollars. No one can get your mesh!!

that depends on a lot of things.

I know it does, but its irrellvent really if I use an alias. I can use Pevs attachment maker if I want an extra att point somewhere but its easy enough to hook into one of yours for the bits I want, plus there is a whole lot of enhancements to menus that I use and some other things that would useless to anyone else so why would you go through the drama of creating a special download for me that has have a special checking routine on a server for it to remain active, bit of a no brainer really you can't run a buisness running after everyones little wants.

Cheers

Lots

 

[norfolksouthern37]

I'm not really sure what you'd like me to clarify here?

* Redistribution of somebody else's content is illegal.
* Aliasing is legal.
* Redistributing of your own content which merely aliases somebody else's content is legal.

chris

you just did... that is all i wanted. i realize that is correct, but you previous post might have given someone the wrong idea. you left it open ended and i could just see someone trying to say you told them it was okay to distribute payware.

 

[RRSignal]

You have two choices:

1. If you prefer things how they were previously, then don't patch.

Why should I not get the bugfixes/defect repairs other users get?

2. Stop running Trainz strictly offline. For a long time now, being online has been the preferred usage scenario for Trainz. Many of our game features assume that you will have at least an intermittent, if not a permanent, internet connection.

This is not an option at all. The performance and security benefits are like night and day, and we all know Trainz needs them. Plus, there are many situations in which internet availability is either not possible or not desirable.

Moreover, there was no requirement that an internet connection was needed when I purchased either the program or any of the DLC (again, I saved records.) For that matter, there still isn't a requirement listed even for the SP1 patch itself as of 6/10/2013. I, and I'm sure many folks, would not have purchased TS12 and/or the DLC if even an "occasional" internet connection or some kind of authorization was needed.

 

[WindWalkr]

Why should I not get the bugfixes/defect repairs other users get?

The fixes and updates are available to you, free of charge. If you choose not to install them, that's your choice. We have never and most likely will never allow users to 'pick and choose' which parts of the game they update. That simply isn't practical for a product as intertwined as Trainz. We release the patches, and you evaluate whether or not you wish to install them.

...there was no requirement that an internet connection was needed when I purchased either the program or any of the DLC (again, I saved records.)

There is none now. We haven't magically gone and retroactively changed what you bought. IF you choose to upgrade to SP1, then you will be required to adopt the new way of doing things. IF you don't want to adopt the new way, then don't upgrade. It's that simple.


kind regards,

chris

 

[bwfeldsee]

There is none now. We haven't magically gone and retroactively changed what you bought. IF you choose to upgrade to SP1, then you will be required to adopt the new way of doing things. IF you don't want to adopt the new way, then don't upgrade. It's that simple.


kind regards,

chris

Sorry but it isn't that simple. Tell me to mind my own business if you like because I'm still on good old fashioned TRS2006 but it's a bit like buying a car, no strings attached, then being told at your first service that you can't have the work done unless you have a GPS tracking system installed. It is ethically quite wrong to sell something and then move the goalposts concerning future upgrades.

It's also doesn't make sense commercially as you are alienating part of your future business. As a TRS 2006 user I should be a prime target for a sale of the all singing, all dancing TS2012 with SP1. Well, there's not a chance you'll sell me one with all this argument going on.

Alan