Trainz the end of an era?

[EverTrainz]

I'm not being negative or positive. Keeping with the OP, these are the reasons why people are leaving.

I'm not sure that the intent of the OP was to turn this into an argument on why creators are throwing fits and leaving just to poke their nose into these forums months later. I'm sure the intention of this thread was to look at why there are not many creators left (emphasized in post #1, especially in the UK scene), and how more creation could be encouraged. It looks like your first post here mentioned there being nothing keeping creators staying with Trainz. But have you seen the new materials? Do they look anything like the previous materials? Definitely an improvement in visuals, and what pulled me back to Trainz around September, after my frustration with materials looking outdated.

I don't want any trouble but if you are done with Trainz and have given up all hope, what are you going to gain by pointing fingers and causing trouble on these forums?

I wonder what the nationality has to do with it all... Australian fanboys?

... They aren't happy unless they are making some childish comments ...

 

[Barry]

An interesting read. However as my interests were mainly maritime I made drivable barges and ships in Trainz initially and coastal areas by offsetting the couplings fpr the canal barges.

Blender came next and made content in the Blender Game Engine mainly maritime. Again times change and there is talk of changes to the Blender Game Engine so again that seems to be not worth pursuing now. Compexity growing in all directions. I thought OpenRails might be the answer as open source but still no official route editor and 7 years now i think so not worth waiting further.

Considering joining the Trainz bandwagon again over the years but does not appeal and no longer practical.

Originally Trainz started with the idea of integrated transport ships and rail... was it 2002? and that would have appealed if simplifed and using Blender made content in Trainz which is relatativley easy to make... if keeping to basics as never could understand gmax. So at present I have deleted all my Blender made content which I used in the Blender Game Engine which might have exported into Trainz?.

Unfortunately the powers that be in Trainz seemed incapable of understanding that Blender made content whether for Trainz or to used in the Blender Game Engine were one and the same thing and identical and even the mention of Blender years ago was ridiculed by forum members !!.

Barry

 

[pware]

They aren't happy unless they are making some childish comments. That just prove their lack of maturity...and that is one thing this place definitely lacks.

I will agree with you there. Here are two examples, in this thread, of childish comments.

I'm not even going to get into the over all declining of the quality of people in the Trainz community and how some people are more privileged and segregated by how much money they have paid.

For some reason the fanboys here just want to sugar coat the inevitable.

It seems that whenever their arguments turns to water, some posters resort to attacking the community and labeling all opposing views as coming from "fanboys".

 

[BlackDiamond1964]

It seems that whenever their arguments turns to water, some posters resort to attacking the community and labeling all opposing views as coming from "fanboys".

Because that is exactly what you are. No listening to reason, always in attack mode to somebody that has a opinion different from your own. This forum is full of them.

 

[BlackDiamond1964]

I wonder what the nationality has to do with it all... Australian fanboys?

Because I've gone through this before...just ask Zek.

 

[pware]

Scott,

Both you and I are expressing opinions. Our opinions are on opposite side of the discussion and I thought, perhaps wrongly, that I was presenting reasoned arguments. So why do my statements represent some sort of "attack mode"?

 

[BlackDiamond1964]

Scott,

Both you and I are expressing opinions. Our opinions are on opposite side of the discussion and I thought, perhaps wrongly, that I was presenting reasoned arguments. So why do my statements represent some sort of "attack mode"?

I can say the same thing. Why are your buds attacking me with their off topic comments? Why? Because that is what they do...all the time. This is why people leave...my point has been proven, my point has been made.

I'm not here to debate the ins and outs of Trainz or the business model of N3V. I'm here to simply say why people don't stick around by using my own experiences.

 

[pware]

Scott,

I do not have any "buds". Other people are free to put forward their points of view from any directions they like.

True, some people have very strong opinions (on all sides of any question) and they can let their emotions control their reasoning.

Making your point (putting it forward forcefully) and proving it (backing it up with evidence) are not the same thing.

People leave the Trainz community all the time and for a wide variety of reasons, including disillusionment. I have been a member of several Train Historical and Preservation groups in my time and the same thing has happened there. Those groups are still around despite dire predictions from those who left "less than happy".

I was one of the early adopters of Trainz and have seen many come and go in that time. You are obviously a disgruntled leaver but your reasons and experiences will not be the same as everyone else. There are new arrivals coming in, judging from the large number of first time posters who have appeared recently, who can take the place of those who leave. Some of those will go on to become valued content creators, others will leave because Trainz is "not for them". This has always been the case and always will be.

I appreciate your concerns for the future of Trainz but to say that it has no relation to the business model or workings of N3V is missing the point. Without N3V making the money it needs to survive, there would be no Trainz.

 

[BlackDiamond1964]

I do not have any "buds". Other people are free to put forward their points of view from any directions they like.

You may not have buds but other sure do, and we all know who those groups are.

True, some people have very strong opinions (on all sides of any question) and they can let their emotions control their reasoning.

Some of what I'm reading are not opinions, they are attacks.

Making your point (putting it forward forcefully) and proving it (backing it up with evidence) are not the same thing.

I'm not aloud to give actual evidence, we all know the hall monitors here will boot me if I do.

You are obviously a disgruntled leaver but your reasons and experiences will not be the same as everyone else.

Disgruntled? That is a little harsh. My reasons and same experiences have been brought up many times before by other users. Now just like back then, they were attacked for speaking up. It's not like I'm alone in these thoughts.

I appreciate your concerns for the future of Trainz but to say that it has no relation to the business model or workings of N3V is missing the point. Without N3V making the money it needs to survive, there would be no Trainz.

Yes, but when it's becoming more about being a cash grab then being about the sim, it becomes a turn off for a lot of people. The DLStation is a good example of that...they feel it's best to try and make people get so frustration at the slow download speeds the'll run out and buy a first class ticket. I'm sorry I expect more from a company that I'm giving my money to. Add to that the fact that I donated my work to the DLStation, I get nothing in return for my efforts. You can't say that this is a good deal for any content creator. It actually a slap in the face if you ask me.

 

[pware]

You may not have buds but other sure do, and we all know who those groups are.

I hope that this is not a continuation of the "flame war" that erupted in these forums a few days ago. If it is then it explains a great deal to me.

I'm not aloud to give actual evidence, we all know the hall monitors here will boot me if I do.

A strange answer. Is your evidence insulting? Offensive? Will it break the CoC? If it does not breech the CoC then how will it lead to you being "booted" and even if it does, since you are leaving then what would it matter?

... it's becoming more about being a cash grab then being about the sim, it becomes a turn off for a lot of people. The DLStation is a good example of that...they feel it's best to try and make people get so frustration at the slow download speeds the'll run out and buy a first class ticket. I'm sorry I expect more from a company that I'm giving my money to. Add to that the fact that I donated my work to the DLStation, I get nothing in return for my efforts. You can't say that this is a good deal for any content creator. It actually a slap in the face if you ask me.

Regrettably, everything involves money these days. Without it N3V would not survive. As I pointed out in a previous post, they have bills to pay including covering the cost of the storage and bandwidth for the DLS. Why do people think that the $40 (or whatever) they paid for the game will cover the cost of a high(er) speed connection for downloading content for the rest of their life?

 

[dangavel]

They have a team, the Content Repair Group, and you don't need to pay anything. The Charter of the CRG forbids improvements to assets: they are only allowed to fix them.

yes I know they have a repair team, but isn't that a volunteer thing ? , but I was meaning a team of NV3 employees , who are paid to fix essential assets that are part of routes that don't work . Its probably beyond their resources, but if they are going to change the parameters all the time that do need to take some responsibility for fixing the items they render useless, especially since they promote the number of assets available as a feature of the game.

the other option is for Nv3 make more assets themselves and provide them as built ins . if a content creator wanted to sell or give their assets to NV3 when they die or when they decide to retire for the game that would assure continuity.
I can see both sides of this , nV3 are a business , a small one in the grand scheme of things, they have used the content creators to make their game more flexible than others but they also are hoisted on their own petard when they update and the assets become scrambled.

Has anyone ever done a census of how many people make content and why they stop making items? this is something that NV3 should do really for their own sake.

There may be more people making than we think and the number of european and Russian content creators seem to be burgeoning , not decreasing , i'm impressed by what they make ven if its hard to work out their naming systems.

Finally, there are folks who make but never share , this is the saddest aspect , there are no doubt some masterpieces that exist only for one persons pleasure. I can never understand that mentality but I've come across it before in other fields. Exclusivity gives them status, I hope they enjoy their creations , reconsider why they will not share and possibly consider offering their work as payware in the future , better that than it being hidden away or seen only as screenshots .

Its a shame to see so much bickering as unity is strength, together we as a community are better off discussing things reasonably than spending our time arguing and being personal, all I know is, I've been helped a great deal by some great people here ( not so much by NV3 so i do not qualify as an "Australian fanboy " ) and i will be forever grateful to them ( including BD1964 who helped me with some telegraphs poles a few years back)

There are many more nice people here than jerks, I've found in life that if you act like a jerk, then people will treat you like one. Its in everyone's interests to try to get on, lets make better attempts to do so .

 

[dangavel]

. Not to mention that everybody and their mother is only seems to be interested in creating payware anymore, so if you want something with a hint of quality get ready to part with more of your money.
.

well. what do you say then to the release of winter Rollins pass? A masterpiece if ever there was one, quality work throughout . All free and built by a team cooperating together to make one of the best routes ever offered up to the community.

There are also many routes in progress which look extremely interesting , I do not think we are on our last legs just yet.

 

[BuilderBob]

yes I know they have a repair team, but isn't that a volunteer thing ? , but I was meaning a team of NV3 employees , who are paid to fix essential assets that are part of routes that don't work

Most of the content on the DLS was created by volunteers, so there is no reason that a volunteer repair team wouldn't be just as effective. N3V does repair and upgrade assets using their own content creation team, but recently the shift has been to use that resource to assist the user base in content creation, rather than doing the work themselves. IMHO that is a shift that should be encouraged.

Has anyone ever done a census of how many people make content and why they stop making items? this is something that NV3 should do really for their own sake.

There may be more people making than we think and the number of european and Russian content creators seem to be burgeoning , not decreasing , i'm impressed by what they make ven if its hard to work out their naming systems.

N3V keeps track of the DLS uploads, but I don't know in what detail. Obviously the DLS is only part of the content creation.

The most recent figures I have seen indicate that DLS uploads are at a rate at least as good as it's ever been, which puts the lie to some of the comments being thrown around here.

 

[dangavel]

Most of the content on the DLS was created by volunteers, so there is no reason that a volunteer repair team wouldn't be just as effective. N3V does repair and upgrade assets using their own content creation team, but recently the shift has been to use that resource to assist the user base in content creation, rather than doing the work themselves. IMHO that is a shift that should be encouraged

Sorry I cannot agree, I'm sure most content creators would rather be making new items than fixing old ones , especially when they have to do it over and over again I think it's nv3's job to make sure assets work with new updates. I quote Jango " its hard to see ones heavy work being undone " . When hundreds of items need updating , that's a LOT Of work to do, witness the routes that he created that are still languishing in 2012 format because TANE did a number on them .

 

[pcas1986]

... I'm sure most content creators would rather be making new items than fixing old ones

I agree with that but I also support BuilderBob's view. I think his summation is correct.

If there are routes that work in TS12, and potentially could work in TANE, but have faulty dependencies, then the most useful thing to do would be to provide a list of those faulty assets to the CRG via a thread.

The CRG has a mountain of assets to fix but the list of faulty assets is presented in such a way as to make it difficult to determine what is important and what is not.

I'm not a route builder but I have migrated my pet route from TS06 right through to TANE and every step has been difficult. But I chose to migrate the route so I accept that it needs to be fixed.

 

[pware]

I'm sure most content creators would rather be making new items than fixing old ones , especially when they have to do it over and over again I think it's nv3's job to make sure assets work with new updates.

I agree that most creators would rather move on to new material than fix the old, but there is the sheer number of assets that remain to be fixed. I believe that it is down to a few thousand now. I would rather have the N3V staff working on fixing the program instead of fixing faulty DLS assets that may still work perfectly in the version of Trainz they were designed for. I am also sure that some creators would not be happy with N3V doing "anything" with their stuff even if it was to repair it so that it worked on TANE - even though uploading to the DLS gives N3V that right.

But there must come a point where you should be asking how many times can you keep updating older assets to work in newer versions of the software. The arguments on this point filled the forums when TANE was first announced.

Many wanted TANE to make a complete break from all older assets from TS12 and below and start fresh with all new assets. Apart from the long lead time needed before a viable range of new assets were available, there was a lot of sense in that viewpoint. I think that we are now seeing some of the disadvantages of maintaining that compatibility.

Opposing that, of course, is the huge range of existing assets that were immediately available for use and worked.

However, I recently purchased a route from the DLC specifically designed for TANE SP2 and was disappointed to see that it still used billboard trees (no Speedtrees) and non-procedural track.

 

[SailorDan]

Sorry I cannot agree, I'm sure most content creators would rather be making new items than fixing old ones , especially when they have to do it over and over again I think it's nv3's job to make sure assets work with new updates.

You can pretty much tell what upgrading work has been done with an asset by looking at the version number and the change in build number. If you examine assets being uploaded to the DLS where the build number changed you will see that the vast majority are in their second version, and typically are moving from build 2.9 to build 3.5. That reflects the points where major changes in the rules occurred. A sample from recent uploads was :1=76, :2=10, :3=10, :4=1. That's a very small sample, but reflects the general impression. So "over and over again" just isn't what's actually happening.

The vast majority of assets do work with later versions. It just seems that the ones that don't are the ones that are really important for the route!

 

[ldowns]

Rather than continuing to obsolete assets N3V should be looking toward programming that works to automatically include older assets, automatically update older assets.

We frequently see responses to this to the effect that older assets are full of errors that slow down performance. Therefore they must be executed. Shot. Electrocuted. Or whatever. Rather drastic, don't you think?

The point is that those assets worked before. Perhaps they slowed down the system, but not all of us give a "hoot" (to be polite) about performance; we want to build large very detailed routes which often depend upon older assets such as signals because appropriate newer ones are not available. Again, the problem comes down to choices: N3V has consistently been averse to allowing users to make choices in how flexible they want Trainz to be. (Example: the notorious flashing red and green junction arrows when a junction is accessed which cannot be eliminated). A "compatibility mode" which would be acknowledged as lower performance but would accept assets currently sentenced to death would be enough to satisfy many of N3V's critics, based upon the posts in this forum.

--Lamont

 

[SailorDan]

We frequently see responses to this to the effect that older assets are full of errors that slow down performance. Therefore they must be executed. Shot. Electrocuted. Or whatever. Rather drastic, don't you think?

That's not what happens. In most cases assets that are "full of errors that slow down performance" continue to work as before. However they cannot be updated without also fixing those errors, and that's where the complaints come from. There are some exceptions - speedtrees were a special case, and paintshed reskins simply aren't supported any more. But the vast majority of assets continue to work exactly as they did before. The number that actually fail is a very small proportion of the total, and it's usually because the rules that applied at the time the asset was created weren't followed, rather than any change in the rules.

 

[BlackDiamond1964]

Regrettably, everything involves money these days. Without it N3V would not survive. As I pointed out in a previous post, they have bills to pay including covering the cost of the storage and bandwidth for the DLS. Why do people think that the $40 (or whatever) they paid for the game will cover the cost of a high(er) speed connection for downloading content for the rest of their life?

If they had a bigger base they would have to worry as much. This should be their real goal, and not nickle and diming everybody to death. If somebody wants that, they can move to Railworks.

In the end I can look past the a community, N3V indiscretions. I can even look past TANE flaws, What I can't get past is the DLStation. Where else do you get slow speeds like that in this day and age? It's not 1995 anymore. It's time for the DLStation to get an upgrade into the 21 century. It also wouldn't hurt for N3V to give some incentive for those content creators wishing to upload quality content to the DLStation. Maybe have some incentive guide based on downloads numbers of their content?