Trainz-build numbers below 3.7 are no longer supported....

[Tony_Hilliam]

The thread title would be a good place to start.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss severe customer dissatisfaction as "non-core" issues. Let me assure you we are very much the core of N3V's business.

The thread title is the easiest part to resolve - the additional points raised and the dissatisfaction expressed is much harder. For example, why have you decided that the dissatisfaction has been or will be dismissed or treated as non-core issues? Or why assume that that N3V wishes to ignore or actively remove/disenfranchise "core" elements of the community?

I would love to hear of other companies who can be accused of a lack of communication that also provide regular (more than monthly) updates on development progress, as well as the ability to carry on a discourse with the head of the company on user forums. (And who are also ready to admit when things have been handled badly, or to reverse decisions that are wrong as we have done in the past, and will continue to do in the future).

I post here for several reasons, including but not limited to:
- I read most of what goes on here to take the "pulse" of the community (although be warned, write more than a few paragraphs and I may read only the first few lines)
- I understand that our core audience is vital to the success of the product
- I also understand that misinformation and speculation often lead to incorrect assumptions being made, and those assumptions turn into "facts"

Resolutions to issues will arrive, but not at 9:30pm.

 

[ish6]

I can assure you their intention is not to knock down any sky supports...that said, since we apparently fail to communicate, here is the internal process we are undertaking:

Step 1: Evaluate the key issues being raised (this would be far easier if people didn't keep bringing non-core issues into the discussion)
Step 2: Work out a response
Step 3: Communicate the response
Step 4: Implement steps to rectify anything immediately broken and things that are easy to fix
Step 5: Put in place longer term procedures to avoid further sky-falling events
Step 6: Put in place longer term solutions to provide overall improvements to existing systems

Good Morning Tony, sir ...

We all know change will happen sooner or later --- Change is necessary for the software to get better, but it was, sir, the sudden change without notice. You never gave us time to adopt. I see this as lack of communication, sir! Perhaps it wasn't intentional, but that's how it was proceed! A simple announcement a few months earlier saying, "Hey, Content Creations we're dropping all builds and jumping to 3,7! Tell us how you feel about it?" ... Then everyone from here to kingdom come could have expressed how they feel, and this would have given you the opportunity to convince why the change! --- No harm, no foil, and people would have jump on board at the end, with a big smiley face!

That's all I'm saying on this subject, sir
Have a good day!
Ish

 

[pcas1986]

I think:

1. N3v need to express clearly what "support" means in the context of a release.
a. There is support for fixing bugs in software. Having read all the posts in this thread I don't think the community have a problem with that.
b. There is support in accepting new and updated assets to the DLS. This is somewhat different to most software product suppliers. Whether such support must be tied to support for a given product could be debated. It is obvious that the content creators have been "blind sided" by the recent announcement that only 3.7 is acceptable for uploads. Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but then I didn't have a bunch of updates ready to go with a version of 3.5. In that case I may think differently.

2. N3V really need to consider their position with content creators and by that I mean those who give up their time to provide free (non payware) assets to the DLS. Some kind of statement as to the support, or non support, might be useful. I can recall two major events that have really "cheesed off" (being polite here) CCs. One was the introduction of LOD and, to be fair, Chris and Zec have provided a huge amount of information on that topic although some of that is splattered throughout the forums. Not everything made it into the WiKi although there is a lot there. Try making a spline with LOD to understand our frustration. The second event is this particular topic.

3. If you really want us to bow out and leave it to the professionals then tell us and, I for one, will go looking for something else to occupy my time.

Regards

 

[Zeldaboy14]

I may only be sticking around because I'm temporary owner of the RCW now, and I find this thread interesting, but I may as well add my 2 cents again. Content creators like me like to stick to older build numbers, as it makes it vastly usable for version 2009 and up. With 3.7 uploads only now, it hurts a lot of peoples most latest updates to old stuff, new content, and other such stuff, for the DLS. And I thought that when I bought Trainz 2012 about 2 years back, it was gonna be supported for longer then this. Now I'm forced to update to a build I don't really like. Never once have I liked SP1 HF4. It just wasn't the same, and my PC barley handles it.

 

[jacksonbarno]

All I can say is, listen to your customers. Fury went down the path it did because Auran didn't listen to it's fanbase and instead went ahead with what they thought was going to be wanted. If you publish a schedule, stick to it and don't pull the rug out from under the users. Don't try to muscle content creators into conforming to new standards, and instead, work with them to establish new rules. Communication is critical in this arrangement, don't just brush us off and think you know best.

That said, formal announcements pertaining to the problem are nice, and if a change is in fact implemented, telling the community outright instead of letting them find out the hard way might help to cushion some of the blow. Coming home to find that all of one's hard work has been invalidated because of a stupid, shortsighted change isn't exactly my idea of a good day.

To address your points:


"...that also provide regular (more than monthly) updates on development progress..."

This is generally expected of software companies that have taken in the money of consumers beforehand in order to develop a new product. EA can be accused of the same thing (lack of communication), although they still put forth examples of progression in development of new software.


"the ability to carry on a discourse with the head of the company on user forums."

This is much better here than on another forum where you don't have the opportunity to see it, although a fair amount of that has gone on as well. But on the other hand, this has nothing to do with communication, rather a lack thereof.


"And who are also ready to admit when things have been handled badly, or to reverse decisions that are wrong as we have done in the past, and will continue to do in the future"

As far as this goes, I haven't seen any regard for any "bad decisions" that were made, nor have I seen any of those aforementioned decisions be rolled back.

Don't let this go down the wrong path.

 

[davesnow]

.....write more than a few paragraphs and I may read only the first few lines......

Me, too. I think some people get a kick out of writing a "book" in these forums. I very rarely read more than a few paragraphs.

 

[mezzoprezzo]

Me, too. I think some people get a kick out of writing a "book" in these forums. I very rarely read more than a few paragraphs.

They're also often quite repetitive.


Here we go once again with yet another ...

 

[RRSignal]

Hi Tony,

The primary problem is the dropping of support for TB 3.5 and 3.6. As long as I've been around, a particular Trainz version has been supported (in terms of answering questions, allowing DLS uploads, etc.) up until the end of support date. Now that's changed. It's clearly a contractual violation - since, unlike Microsoft (to which Windwalkr has tried to compare the situation), Microsoft has clearly and unequivocably stated outright that they will only support products patched to the latest version; the Trainz Lifecycle Policy has no such provision. It's far too late to add one for TS12 or even T:ANE at this point, since the product has already been sold with the Lifecycle Policy (in other words, the support agreement) written as it is.

Personally, I might have considered continuing to upload to the DLS if 3.5 builds were allowed, at least I might upload new content. I can mirror content for TS09/10 elsewhere. I would think, however, that allowing 09/10 uploads would appeal to more users and effectively produce a "wider audience" and, perhaps, sell First-Class Tickets, and such content is reasonably modern-enough not to cause many issues. I'm not too concerned about the dropping of 09/10 support (since that WAS a part of the support agreement/Lifecycle Policy) although I see there being a great "you have your cake and eat it too" potential by continuing to allow 09/10 uploads.

I must say, a lot of the info here comes from Windwalkr and a lot of what he's saying is so full of holes, you could drive a train through. A key example being that he doesn't understand that, with relatively rare exception (and I'm taking him at his word at that much) you can validate content to a higher build of Trainz but use a lower Trainz-build so it'll work in lower ones but be error-free in higher ones. Many if not most of us have been building our content that way for years now anyway, and, in the few cases where version differences could become an issue (e.g. loco sounds), it's common practice for many creators to build version-specific items.

 

[Falcus]

Not trying to be inflammatory here at all (Lets see if I can succeed? no sarcasm intended either, at least for the most part).

Dave, Mezzo. Both of you do great work, I enjoy your works immensely. However, being perhaps one of the most long winded book writers on these forums, I would point out 2 things.

1:As one of you already mentioned (In addition to a certain Company head), you don't have to read any of it.

2: Just as much as book writers don't make bones about short posts (particularly in other peoples threads), if you wish to discuss the matter, perhaps lets take it up privately? Feel free to pick my brains anytime about the habit, at least for me and I suspect a few others, there is sometimes a legitimate reason for peoples habits, even if we don't always agree with them or they bother the ever living duck out of us.....

@Tony,
Thanks for your involvement in this thread(?). I too hope for a compromise on the End of Service policy recently announced, or at the very least some kind of "very good reason" for it (Preferably with video, personal commentary, and an easel, don't forget the easel).

-Falcus

 

[JCitron]

Not trying to be inflammatory here at all (Lets see if I can succeed? no sarcasm intended either, at least for the most part).

Dave, Mezzo. Both of you do great work, I enjoy your works immensely. However, being perhaps one of the most long winded book writers on these forums, I would point out 2 things.

1:As one of you already mentioned (In addition to a certain Company head), you don't have to read any of it.

2: Just as much as book writers don't make bones about short posts (particularly in other peoples threads), if you wish to discuss the matter, perhaps lets take it up privately? Feel free to pick my brains anytime about the habit, at least for me and I suspect a few others, there is sometimes a legitimate reason for peoples habits, even if we don't always agree with them or they bother the ever living duck out of us.....

@Tony,
Thanks for your involvement in this thread(?). I too hope for a compromise on the End of Service policy recently announced, or at the very least some kind of "very good reason" for it (Preferably with video, personal commentary, and an easel, don't forget the easel).

-Falcus

In agreement on both accounts. Some things require more than a few words to say, especially when details are required...

From another so-called "book" writer.


John

 

[davesnow]

Not trying to be inflammatory here at all (Lets see if I can succeed? no sarcasm intended either, at least for the most part).

Dave, Mezzo. Both of you do great work, I enjoy your works immensely. However, being perhaps one of the most long winded book writers on these forums, I would point out 2 things.

1:As one of you already mentioned (In addition to a certain Company head), you don't have to read any of it.

I don't.

2: Just as much as book writers don't make bones about short posts (particularly in other peoples threads), if you wish to discuss the matter, perhaps lets take it up privately? Feel free to pick my brains anytime about the habit, at least for me and I suspect a few others, there is sometimes a legitimate reason for peoples habits, even if we don't always agree with them or they bother the ever living duck out of us.....

-Falcus

No thank you.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Falcus]

I don't.

No thank you.

Cheers

Dave

Well, Continue to hijack other peoples threads for your own intolerance of things I guess..... I'm done with this in this thread however.

-Falcus

 

[Vern]

Just to illustrate why users prefer 49922 to 61388...

Having let the SP1 HF4 patch run its 6 hour course over the last couple of evenings, opened up CMP to download a few assets. Casually scrolled the mouse to look at a couple of potential items further down the list. Instant programme freeze and the white mist over the screen. Ctrl-Alt-Del to clear down then reboot and restart to sit looking at the mandatory 20 minute TAD rebuild.

That out the way, decided to abandon asset collection and opened Surveyor to start working on a route project. Decide to spur a couple of sidings off an existing section of straight track and immediately the intermediate spline point drops to a lower level than the two fixed points at either end. Cue much fiddling to get everything on the y axis back in alignment.

That is why I and I'm sure many others dislike working in 61388. Yes you fixed a few things but broke considerably more, so in the nicest possible way, N3V/Tony please consider our appeal for the remaining lifespan of TS12 and assuming a further patch is not on the cards, to allow all registered users regardless of version number to enjoy the ability to upload their work without restriction to the DLS.

 

[gawpo50]

And this is Trainz once T:ANE fails.

As video link has been deleted, no further comment needed

 

[JCitron]

Just to illustrate why users prefer 49922 to 61388...

Having let the SP1 HF4 patch run its 6 hour course over the last couple of evenings, opened up CMP to download a few assets. Casually scrolled the mouse to look at a couple of potential items further down the list. Instant programme freeze and the white mist over the screen. Ctrl-Alt-Del to clear down then reboot and restart to sit looking at the mandatory 20 minute TAD rebuild.

That out the way, decided to abandon asset collection and opened Surveyor to start working on a route project. Decide to spur a couple of sidings off an existing section of straight track and immediately the intermediate spline point drops to a lower level than the two fixed points at either end. Cue much fiddling to get everything on the y axis back in alignment.

That is why I and I'm sure many others dislike working in 61388. Yes you fixed a few things but broke considerably more, so in the nicest possible way, N3V/Tony please consider our appeal for the remaining lifespan of TS12 and assuming a further patch is not on the cards, to allow all registered users regardless of version number to enjoy the ability to upload their work without restriction to the DLS.

I agree, Vern.

The frustrations are sometimes not worth the effort to use the program on some days. The sad part is Trainz has become more of a Geek's toy and less of a railroad enthusiast and model builder's way of enjoying a hobby that they could not otherwise be able to do so. With the ever increasing worries about hardware, software, patches, config files, etc., it's more like work and less of a model train or rail fanning hobby.

It would be nice if Tony does consider our appeal because in the end it would mean more customers in the long run as they will continue to spend money on First Class Tickets, add-ons and other Trainz-related wares here and elsewhere. By forcing an upgrade, it will mean people will have to fix what they have to move on, or be stuck with something that will very soon not be supported. I suppose this sounds like the rest of the crowd that has left that once used TRS2004, then those that left that once used TRS2006, TS2009, TS2010, and so on. In this case, their customer base is getting thinner as more and more people are pushed off the footplate. Eventually who are they going to have for customers? The 'Droid and iPad crowd, a few kids who love Thomas, and some poor hapless soul who thinks that they can get lots of content only to find that there really isn't much new being made anymore because all the good developer had left.

This sounds all to familiar to a company I worked for, and no I'm not going to write a book this time... (snicker) In the end they'll lost out because they simply put all their eggs into one basket and ended up with nothing. By the time they figured that out, it was too little and too late. Sadly, I think we're getting to the too late stage.

John

 

[Vern]

The 'Droid and iPad crowd,

Slightly OT, but here's hoping we never get that business model, if the games SWMBO plays on her iPad are anything to go by (such as Clash of the Clans) where to make any real progress you are constantly having to buy gems or notes to supplement what the "free" version gives you. Surveyor track pack for £40 and when you use it or delete, can't get it back for another go. So in that respect our lives are easier and Trainz is largely ethical.

 

[KenGreen]

I avoid using 61388 as I have had problems in the past. I think this is caused by the fact that I have bought most of the DLCs. On the last occasion i lost all of skipper1945's dependancies because the DRM tried to check my DLCs but the server was down and the dependancies were shared with DLCs. I prefer to use 49922 as I have plenty of sessions created for this version and have confidence that an outside influence will not ruin my pleasure.
i suspect that I am not alone in deciding to wait for TANE and to use TANE as well as 49922 and to abandon 61388.

Ken

 

[Vern]

Stopping the DLC downloading was the first thing I did after the upgrade. Apart from anything else, there is nothing to distinguish the assets in Surveyor so you end up inadvertently using items people haven't got - another disadvantage of 61388.

I guess doing as you suggest Ken and dropping TS12 in favour of TANE, once the proper version is released and stable, is exactly what N3V are hoping for. I suspect that will now be my play, I've got a couple of projects in MSTS I'm playing with which will take me beyond 15th May, at which point a reasoned assessment of, "Where do we go from here?" as regards TS12/TANE et al can take place.

A more drastic solution is to reinstall TS2009 or TS2010 and limit building to the built in assets. That way the route can be uploaded at TS.com or UKTS and so long as a user has the base version of the game, they can run it quite happily without going near the DLS.

 

[clam1952]

Just to illustrate why users prefer 49922 to 61388...

Having let the SP1 HF4 patch run its 6 hour course over the last couple of evenings, opened up CMP to download a few assets. Casually scrolled the mouse to look at a couple of potential items further down the list. Instant programme freeze and the white mist over the screen. Ctrl-Alt-Del to clear down then reboot and restart to sit looking at the mandatory 20 minute TAD rebuild.

That out the way, decided to abandon asset collection and opened Surveyor to start working on a route project. Decide to spur a couple of sidings off an existing section of straight track and immediately the intermediate spline point drops to a lower level than the two fixed points at either end. Cue much fiddling to get everything on the y axis back in alignment.

That is why I and I'm sure many others dislike working in 61388. Yes you fixed a few things but broke considerably more, so in the nicest possible way, N3V/Tony please consider our appeal for the remaining lifespan of TS12 and assuming a further patch is not on the cards, to allow all registered users regardless of version number to enjoy the ability to upload their work without restriction to the DLS.

More or less sums it up, easy way out of CM locking up though just kill TAD and Trainz util with task manager, leave CM, TAD will restart and CM will work again and you can carry on with whatever you are doing, of course next launch you will get the extended very long completely unnecessary in my view validation.
Seems to me that if you attempt to do more than one thing at a time CM will lockup.

If it wasn't for these problems and 61388 worked properly as regards content manager, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many people upset over the non support issue.

@Zeldaboy, totally inappropriate video, suggest you remove it.

 

[oknotsen]

Trying to keep it short and clear

I agree that the way N3V is communicating has, well... lets just say "room for improvement".
It also still surprises me that after the previous few "changes" on Friday, they still think doing that on a Friday is "a good idea". One would expect they evaluated that the last time and never make that mistake again.

I can also understand that "support of TS12" could be explained as "we support only the last patched version" and as a result now move to a minimum of 3.7.

However...

N3V seems to forget there is not yet a Service Pack 1 for most of the language versions. As a result, they can not use 3.7 of the DLS and are stuck at 3.6. This seems to me a valid reason to keep the DLS on 3.6.