Time to face the music.
- Thread starter Ben1337
- Start date
- Status
...for those that like Trainz and visit mezzoprezzo,
It is possible that you may need to explain that..... soon(tm)....
Regards,
Ron
I'm going to guess "post is a pipe dream". And how does the Euphod get dragged into this? All this nonsense has me referring to myself in the "third person"!
ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
Well, first off, each version does provide improvements. However, it doesn't occur to all asset types... Not all built-in content may take advantage of the new features either.
Some examples might help here. Note, these are examples, not complete lists.
TC3 introduced new steam physics and sounds (neither are easily back dated to earlier versions), as well as new functions for steam locomotives (smoke, bogie settings, etc). Also added a setting for the intensity of the 'high beam' (default) headlight on locos.
TS2009 was the 'big' improvement in a sense. It introduced new splines, a new system of LOD for scenery, 5m grid for layouts, new materials for objects. Again, each of these means backdating is not possible...
TS2010 had some 'big' change for content as well. Again, maps had changes, namely the 'layers' system. There is also the seasonal assets functionality, and of course speedtree assets. Note, TS2009 SP4 allows TS2010 routes to work in it, except where content is missing. Note, does not have speedtree functionality.
TS12 had slightly less in the way of content changes, but introduced multiplayer instead of 'content' functions. However, it did still include some improvements. The biggest (outside of the multiplayer) is the new sound engine which supports doppler. This requires that diesel loco sounds (as well as other sounds that are setup for diesel locos) be upgraded, and hence won't directly work in earlier versions (that said, it is only the addition of a few tags). TS12 (and the TS2010 MP beta) introduced 'self shadowing' system (yes, objects with shadows can cast onto themselves), albeit in TS12 with a triangle/index/vertex limit (currently effectively 1333 triangles).
It should, however, be remembered that you really aren't going to see much in the way of improvements to older content simply by adding new functionality. Only content built to take advantage of the new functionality will see these improvements. A good example is the 'tbumpenv' material (TS2009 SP1+ only), which adds a 'sky' reflection onto the model (controlled per pixel across the texture), as well as a normals maps, and a specular map (normals being supported since TRS2004). The addition of these, and some light weathering (personal opinion on the light weathering ) can really bring a model out, although having the model stand out isn't always a good thing, and can mean making more models to go with it so that it blends in...
I would be interested in how you were able to transfer TS12 content to TS2010, since you don't appear to have TS12 registered...
As to content, not all of this was 'freeware', an example being some of the content from JointedRail in TS12. Much of it is also unreleased content, in particular the routes. TS2010 did also include some new routes, although there were also 'upgraded' versions of previously released routes included as well.
It should be noted that we are currently looking for content creators who are interested in having their content included in the next version of Trainz (please see the appropriate announcement).
As to what else was done between TS2010 and TS12? Well, we did make improvements to the performance in Trainz (many of the comments we see are that it either performs the same, or better).
It should be noted that, if the computer is below the minimum requirement, then it is unlikely to run well/correctly. The minimum requirement is the specification that Trainz is expected to run on with all settings on minimum.
As to how well, this can depend entirely on the software side, if the computer meets the system requirements. For example, a very 'bloated' computer (full of temp files, unnecessary processes running, hard drive not defragged regularly, etc) can give very poor performance, whilst a very 'clean' or 'lean' computer (regular cleaning of temp files, very few processes running, regularly defragged hard drives, etc) can give better performance. Dust inside the case (causing overheating) can play a part as well, as can the ambient temperature in the room (a simple pedestal fan to circulate air can make quite a difference - known from experience there ).
Most computers sit somewhere in the middle of the above though, and hence could be said to get 'average' performance for their system specs.
As to giving your old Trainz versions to a friend, we do outline in the End User License Agreement (and on the serial number registration page) that Trainz licenses/serial numbers are non transferable. As such, we don't support transferring serial numbers between accounts. Please remember that you agreed to the EULA when you installed Trainz...
Please excuse the long reply, I wanted to cover much of this to explain how things are going.
Some examples might help here. Note, these are examples, not complete lists.
TC3 introduced new steam physics and sounds (neither are easily back dated to earlier versions), as well as new functions for steam locomotives (smoke, bogie settings, etc). Also added a setting for the intensity of the 'high beam' (default) headlight on locos.
TS2009 was the 'big' improvement in a sense. It introduced new splines, a new system of LOD for scenery, 5m grid for layouts, new materials for objects. Again, each of these means backdating is not possible...
TS2010 had some 'big' change for content as well. Again, maps had changes, namely the 'layers' system. There is also the seasonal assets functionality, and of course speedtree assets. Note, TS2009 SP4 allows TS2010 routes to work in it, except where content is missing. Note, does not have speedtree functionality.
TS12 had slightly less in the way of content changes, but introduced multiplayer instead of 'content' functions. However, it did still include some improvements. The biggest (outside of the multiplayer) is the new sound engine which supports doppler. This requires that diesel loco sounds (as well as other sounds that are setup for diesel locos) be upgraded, and hence won't directly work in earlier versions (that said, it is only the addition of a few tags). TS12 (and the TS2010 MP beta) introduced 'self shadowing' system (yes, objects with shadows can cast onto themselves), albeit in TS12 with a triangle/index/vertex limit (currently effectively 1333 triangles).
It should, however, be remembered that you really aren't going to see much in the way of improvements to older content simply by adding new functionality. Only content built to take advantage of the new functionality will see these improvements. A good example is the 'tbumpenv' material (TS2009 SP1+ only), which adds a 'sky' reflection onto the model (controlled per pixel across the texture), as well as a normals maps, and a specular map (normals being supported since TRS2004). The addition of these, and some light weathering (personal opinion on the light weathering
) can really bring a model out, although having the model stand out isn't always a good thing, and can mean making more models to go with it so that it blends in...I would be interested in how you were able to transfer TS12 content to TS2010, since you don't appear to have TS12 registered...
As to content, not all of this was 'freeware', an example being some of the content from JointedRail in TS12. Much of it is also unreleased content, in particular the routes. TS2010 did also include some new routes, although there were also 'upgraded' versions of previously released routes included as well.
It should be noted that we are currently looking for content creators who are interested in having their content included in the next version of Trainz (please see the appropriate announcement).
As to what else was done between TS2010 and TS12? Well, we did make improvements to the performance in Trainz (many of the comments we see are that it either performs the same, or better).
It should be noted that, if the computer is below the minimum requirement, then it is unlikely to run well/correctly. The minimum requirement is the specification that Trainz is expected to run on with all settings on minimum.
As to how well, this can depend entirely on the software side, if the computer meets the system requirements. For example, a very 'bloated' computer (full of temp files, unnecessary processes running, hard drive not defragged regularly, etc) can give very poor performance, whilst a very 'clean' or 'lean' computer (regular cleaning of temp files, very few processes running, regularly defragged hard drives, etc) can give better performance. Dust inside the case (causing overheating) can play a part as well, as can the ambient temperature in the room (a simple pedestal fan to circulate air can make quite a difference - known from experience there
).Most computers sit somewhere in the middle of the above though, and hence could be said to get 'average' performance for their system specs.
As to giving your old Trainz versions to a friend, we do outline in the End User License Agreement (and on the serial number registration page) that Trainz licenses/serial numbers are non transferable. As such, we don't support transferring serial numbers between accounts. Please remember that you agreed to the EULA when you installed Trainz...
Please excuse the long reply, I wanted to cover much of this to explain how things are going.
amigacooke
Well-known member
Are you sure this is what you meant to say?
Having spent years around the Amiga market place, it is very easy to take big promises with even larger pinches of salt.
People here script using C++ based coding for fun, scripting and modelling for fun... some of the time.
Besides, the engine is almost ready, undertaking beta testing.
Development of the actual game isn't far off.
However... I think it's time to depart...
Wait just a minuet. Now, I am not game developer. But I do know a thing or two about how games are made. And what your saying is that you are ready for beta testing, but you haven't even developed the game yet?
So what are you beta testing? Text files? Google Sketchup models? How do you beta with out a Beta?
Lets look at how a game is made, just find out where you went wrong.
Base Development - At this point the game is just notes on paper. Some fancy art work. Maybe a few early models and renderings. MAYBE even a little code. But not a game.
Development - At this point models are made. Animations are worked on. Levels built. Code written. Engine built. Beers consumed.
Alpha build 0.## - At this stage the game is unplayable to YOU, the player. Heck, it might have not even been announced yet. This is the build that the developers first come up with to test with in the company. Work out as many bugs as they can. And fine tune things. Now the Alpha build will all ways be 0.## with the ## changing as new changes are made.
Beta 1.## - At this point the game takes it first real steps towards being a game. Testing is done. This is usually in house, meaning the studio will hire people to come in and test the game. And no, they don't get to sit there and play it. They might have to do one task over and over again for hours to make sure the code works. Example, a player might have to open and close a door 100 times to make sure the code for opening doors works under any circumstances with out falling off. (See "Making of Halo 3" and you'll see they talk about jumping 1000 times on just one platform to ensure that it wont break until shot at.) Beta testing can also be open or closed to the public. Closed means only a had full of people who sign up or buy some other game with a code to unlock it can play.
2.## - This is the game that the publisher gets from the studio, and not the one that you play. At this point the publisher tests the game, this may be when there is an open beta if there wasn't one in the beta build. At this point the game is done, for the most part. Bugs will need to be fixed, changes still to be made, etc.
3.## - Now the game has gone gold as they say. Its been printed on disks, made available for download, or sent via laser into your skull. But now is when you fork over money and get to play it.
(Most of what I just said, I referenced from different interviews with game developers. And no, I didn't interview them, I watched them in my quest for knowledge.)
Now you must also take this in to consideration. When a studio is testing a game, looking for bugs, they may have 15-30 people doing it. Factor in that they are doing it for 8 hours a day.
8*15=120 hours of game testing.
Now think of this, lets look at a major AAA title Battlefield 3. That game sold 5 million copies in just one week. Now if each person is playing for an average of 4 hours a day your math is this:
4*5000000=20000000 hours of game play in just 4 hour time span. The math gets ridicules when you try to figure out the total number of hours spent in a 24 hour day. But in thats a lot of time for players to find bugs and what not.
Now why do I say that, because its the same for N3V. They only have so many people to test the game that many bugs might get missed. Then when us, the players come into the game we have more time to find every thing.
Lastly, you say that a lot of the threads here are of people complaining. True. But think of how many copies of TRS(Any version) are out there VS the number of complaints on the forum. Not every one who has the game has had a problem.
And one more little thing that erks me. Why if you are so disappointed with a product, would you continue to use it? Why come to the forums for that product and demand change? Seams a little redundant. Then again, as they have said, you are just trying to troll.
Oh well, off to enjoy my registered copy TRS12 with my FTC that I happily paid for so I am quickly download all the fantastic assets I want from such an amazing community.
overkill650
New member
hey ben hows it going. i agree with you lots. BUT, you should understand that N3V/ auran probally has about 10 employees. i found out a month ago that the helpdesk is not 10...not 5...not even 2, but 1, yes 1 freakin guy. Zec. hes a really nice person...but really? one tech support guy for over 1 million copies sold???
thats a big one with me. one other thing, is there shouldnt be a "submit a ticket" thing, but a toll free tech support number. like i dont know much about trainz. but if i did, i would have this in my sig:
"Having problems with Trainz? Gimme a call and I'll let you know what I can do. xxx-xxx-xxxx."
to everybody on the forums: what really happened was auran didnt think they were gonna make a whole lot of money selling trainz...thats why you cant buy it at gamestop or bestbuy or terget or even wal mart.
but now that u guys at auran DID sell that much, dont you think your company should upgrade a little. have a staff of 30-50 employees instead of 10?
other than that, the game is fine. bugs will be bugs...even cars have craploads of issues. ive spent $3000 on restorin g my 34 year old truck and havent even left the under carriage yet...
and ben, as far as the 10 years of same gaming engine/ better graphics goes, you complain that not everybody has a super computer. well neither do i. but i run trainz at MINIMAL settings because i have shallow pockets.
and look at call of duty mw3. i hated it and brought it back, but theyre still using the origianl gaming engine from call of duty mw1. and theat gaming engine was based off of cod 2 & 3. so cod 2 was like what/ 2003? its 2011 now, so a huge company like activision has been using the same engine for 8+ years.
all im saying is that auran is somewhere between the creators of addictinggames .com and ea games, but they definitely need to start lugging the beer bellies around.
thats a big one with me. one other thing, is there shouldnt be a "submit a ticket" thing, but a toll free tech support number. like i dont know much about trainz. but if i did, i would have this in my sig:
"Having problems with Trainz? Gimme a call and I'll let you know what I can do. xxx-xxx-xxxx."
to everybody on the forums: what really happened was auran didnt think they were gonna make a whole lot of money selling trainz...thats why you cant buy it at gamestop or bestbuy or terget or even wal mart.
but now that u guys at auran DID sell that much, dont you think your company should upgrade a little. have a staff of 30-50 employees instead of 10?
other than that, the game is fine. bugs will be bugs...even cars have craploads of issues. ive spent $3000 on restorin g my 34 year old truck and havent even left the under carriage yet...
and ben, as far as the 10 years of same gaming engine/ better graphics goes, you complain that not everybody has a super computer. well neither do i. but i run trainz at MINIMAL settings because i have shallow pockets.
and look at call of duty mw3. i hated it and brought it back, but theyre still using the origianl gaming engine from call of duty mw1. and theat gaming engine was based off of cod 2 & 3. so cod 2 was like what/ 2003? its 2011 now, so a huge company like activision has been using the same engine for 8+ years.
all im saying is that auran is somewhere between the creators of addictinggames .com and ea games, but they definitely need to start lugging the beer bellies around.
Sure, we'd love to. Trainz pays for about 10 of those. Would you like to foot the bill for the other 20-40?
cheers,
chris
ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
Hi Overkill650
Actually, there's two of us on the helpdesk. Myself, and Aron Coert (note, Aron is not on the helpdesk ever day).
To provide a 'toll free' number would be impossible, due to the cost (please remember, we are an Australian company - a toll free number would, at most, be only available during Australian business hours, to Australian customers...).
As to the number of staff, a look at the credits within TS2010 or TS12 should give a fairly good idea of how many people are on the Trainz team... Note, this isn't a full list of our staff, since we do have other projects outside of Trainz (such as the publishing of other games), as well as other staff who are not listed (either joined after that released, or are not involved in Trainz itself).
However, not all staff are tech support, same as not all staff are programmers, artists, etc.
And the helpdesk isn't manned 24/7 (I don't really feel like working 24/7 personally ). To do so would be too costly. Instead, we use a 'ticket' based system so that we can provide support to as many people as possible (although sometimes it can take a little time to reply, especially if we get a large number of tickets, or a few extremely difficult tickets).
As to 1 million copies sold... Thats one million copies of Trainz in approx 10 years. With the majority of those being 'bargain bin' sales from retail shops (such as those listed - yes Trainz is available from retail stores, although as to which stores depends on that countries publisher... In Aus it's available from at least EB Games that I've seen).
That said, those 1 million copies has allowed Trainz (and the Trainz team) to get to where we are today. And hopefully we can continue to expand what we have further as we go along! However, currently, we are relatively small.
As a note, having checked it a few times, to do a 24/7 call center would require us to have at least 15-20 people specifically for the technical support (each call could take between 5 minutes and a few hours!). Since if someone if off sick, you need to have someone on call to take over. Plus you will need multiple people at the same time, since you'll have multiple calls at the same time, which have to be handled in 'real time', rather than one at a time as via ticket/email.
And call based technical support really isn't all it's cracked up to be. Having worked as a computer tech with my dad, phone calls can actually be more frustrating, as the required information is spoken, and cannot be reviewed as required by the tech support person as they go (I regularly go back to earlier replies to double check information, can't do that on the phone!).
Of course, what also happens for those who don't speak English (written tickets can be translated using online translators!). We would need to hire even more people to cover each language, which will increase the cost of such a service.
As above though, it would definitely not be a toll free number. It's more likely to be a quite expensive toll number, so as to actually cover the cost of providing it!
I should also note, the 'Jet' engine actually went from Jet 1 to Jet 2 with TRS2004. It was still 'Jet', but it was a newer version of Jet. Hence, effectively, the game engine is actually about 8 years old (with Trainz 1.0 being about 11 years old, including development - note, these are approximate values, I really only joined Trainz about the time TRS2004 was released, although I had UTC for a while before that ). It has been fairly extensively modified in that time though, with TRS2006/TC3 -> TS2009 being a similar 'leap' to UTC -> TRS2004. Albeit more 'back end' changes than big 'look at me' changes (e.g. industries, which TRS2004 introduced).
Actually, there's two of us on the helpdesk. Myself, and Aron Coert (note, Aron is not on the helpdesk ever day).
To provide a 'toll free' number would be impossible, due to the cost (please remember, we are an Australian company - a toll free number would, at most, be only available during Australian business hours, to Australian customers...).
As to the number of staff, a look at the credits within TS2010 or TS12 should give a fairly good idea of how many people are on the Trainz team... Note, this isn't a full list of our staff, since we do have other projects outside of Trainz (such as the publishing of other games), as well as other staff who are not listed (either joined after that released, or are not involved in Trainz itself).
However, not all staff are tech support, same as not all staff are programmers, artists, etc.
And the helpdesk isn't manned 24/7 (I don't really feel like working 24/7 personally
). To do so would be too costly. Instead, we use a 'ticket' based system so that we can provide support to as many people as possible (although sometimes it can take a little time to reply, especially if we get a large number of tickets, or a few extremely difficult tickets).As to 1 million copies sold... Thats one million copies of Trainz in approx 10 years. With the majority of those being 'bargain bin' sales from retail shops (such as those listed - yes Trainz is available from retail stores, although as to which stores depends on that countries publisher... In Aus it's available from at least EB Games that I've seen).
That said, those 1 million copies has allowed Trainz (and the Trainz team) to get to where we are today. And hopefully we can continue to expand what we have further as we go along! However, currently, we are relatively small.
As a note, having checked it a few times, to do a 24/7 call center would require us to have at least 15-20 people specifically for the technical support (each call could take between 5 minutes and a few hours!). Since if someone if off sick, you need to have someone on call to take over. Plus you will need multiple people at the same time, since you'll have multiple calls at the same time, which have to be handled in 'real time', rather than one at a time as via ticket/email.
And call based technical support really isn't all it's cracked up to be. Having worked as a computer tech with my dad, phone calls can actually be more frustrating, as the required information is spoken, and cannot be reviewed as required by the tech support person as they go (I regularly go back to earlier replies to double check information, can't do that on the phone!).
Of course, what also happens for those who don't speak English (written tickets can be translated using online translators!). We would need to hire even more people to cover each language, which will increase the cost of such a service.
As above though, it would definitely not be a toll free number. It's more likely to be a quite expensive toll number, so as to actually cover the cost of providing it!
I should also note, the 'Jet' engine actually went from Jet 1 to Jet 2 with TRS2004. It was still 'Jet', but it was a newer version of Jet. Hence, effectively, the game engine is actually about 8 years old (with Trainz 1.0 being about 11 years old, including development - note, these are approximate values, I really only joined Trainz about the time TRS2004 was released, although I had UTC for a while before that
). It has been fairly extensively modified in that time though, with TRS2006/TC3 -> TS2009 being a similar 'leap' to UTC -> TRS2004. Albeit more 'back end' changes than big 'look at me' changes (e.g. industries, which TRS2004 introduced).overkill650
New member
some very striking points you made Zec. and thats why i thought there was only you at the helpdesk, aron is barely there. lol heavy workloade on you.
you know i love u guys though. was just making suggestions, as well as trying to calm down the thread.
btw, what other games have you guys done? like have you done anything besides simulators?
you know i love u guys though. was just making suggestions, as well as trying to calm down the thread.
btw, what other games have you guys done? like have you done anything besides simulators?
overkill650
New member
Sure, we'd love to. Trainz pays for about 10 of those. Would you like to foot the bill for the other 20-40?
cheers,
chris
hey chris, i never really knew how many people worked with you guys. especially how my game doesnt come with credits. lol. it just says credits: then blank.
i always thought it was like 10-15 max, because i only see you, zec, aron, and some other guy whose name i cant remeber, on the forums.
overkill650
New member
lol. we havent had an office max here on long island since 1995. all we have is wal mart. target. best buy. gamestop.
ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
You should be able to find the credits in the manual as well.
Please don't take my comments too harshly. We do like feedback, however we do try to make it clear on some things why they are as they are.
As to other games, at the moment we are only really producing the Trainz series.
However, as a publisher, all of the games in the Auran.com shop are published by us in Australia. Not all are sold in retail stores (actually, only items listed as having DVD editions are sold in retail stores). These are developed/produced by other companies, and sold by us in Aus (with other publishers handling other countries).
Please don't take my comments too harshly. We do like feedback, however we do try to make it clear on some things why they are as they are.
As to other games, at the moment we are only really producing the Trainz series.
However, as a publisher, all of the games in the Auran.com shop are published by us in Australia. Not all are sold in retail stores (actually, only items listed as having DVD editions are sold in retail stores). These are developed/produced by other companies, and sold by us in Aus (with other publishers handling other countries).
No, that number is about right. As Zec says, it changes from time to time and it depends on how you count the people, but 10 is a reasonable estimate of the people on the Trainz team. We'd love to have more people, because that would let us improve things across the board (more features, newer content, better documentation, live support, etc.) but in reality our market niche isn't large enough to sustain that kind of operation currently.
Some other big-name companies have bet on the "spend more money to make more money" formula in that past, with some fairly well-known negative results. We're a much smaller company and prefer not to take that kind of risk (indeed, Auran was bitten by that same approach in the past, albeit in a different market space, which makes N3V twice shy.)
chris
You do realize there's one in Bohemia,Stony Brook and Levittown right?
And I've seen trainz at Walmart and Best Buy and since I don't go in the game stop (because that's where the little game nerds hang out) I couldn't tell you.
But yes you have an OfficeMax three of them in fact out on Long Island
Gandalf0444
FVRR member
The only thing that I agree with in this thread 100% is that the Jet engine needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, or a new engine entirely. But with such a small company and not a very large profit margin does make that hard to accomplish..Be awesome if trainz was in the frostbite 2 engine huh?:hehe:
Be awesome if trainz was in the frostbite 2 engine huh?:hehe:
"..no support for DirectX 9 (nor, therefore, Windows XP)."
"We can have 512 megs every hundred metres if we wanted to."
"... has not ruled out the feasibility of releasing mod tools for it."
Yeah, sounds like a perfect fit for our users ;p
chris
mezzoprezzo
Content appreciator
~snip~ ..Be awesome if trainz was in the frostbite 2 engine huh?:hehe:
Now that really wood be cool! (Pun intended)
Having said that, it is probably more likely that N3V will eventually develop the game with an engine to that standard than the OP being successful with their “pipe dream”.
Good luck to Ben1227. I doubt that it will ever happen, but if he/she pulls it off I’ll eat a SpeedTree!
Cheers
Casper
- Status