The DLS Process needs fixing.......

[DaveL]

Greetings,

"I come to disrupt not placate" ....Attila the Hun ?

We, the users of Trainz and N3V really need to come to an agreement about the large number of missing dependencies associated with assets on the DLS. I for one, am really upset about the amount of time I have to spend looking for missing deps. And when I find a missing dep, guess what ? It has missing deps also !! And most of the time what is missing is not on the DLS at all !

The easy solution is;

All submissions to the DLS must include any/all dependent assets in their entirety.
If all the deps are not included, the submission must be refused. This alone would be a quantum step in the right direction.

The hard solution is;

The restriction of all payware to the N3V store only, no exceptions. And the implementation of a method that would not permit any asset to be used in the game, that was not obtained from either the DLS or the N3V store. Iam aware this will upset some people, but sometimes change is painful.

Respectfully,

Dave Leland
(DaveL)

 

[pcas1986]

...
The easy solution is;

All submissions to the DLS must include any/all dependent assets in their entirety.
...

So you want those uploading routes to also upload all dependencies used in their route but made by others? That could easily be gigabytes of unnecessary data.

How does that make it easier?

 

[DaveL]

Well, let me see......Route maker uploads the whole thing, deps included. Then the DLS sorts it all out and adds to the DLS items it does not already contain, if there errors, the DLS fires off a request for correction by the dep creator.

When you or I got to the DLS to download, it (the DLS) checks what we already have and only downloads what is needed.......

DaveL

 

[pdkoester]

I thought it already does that, am I not clear?

 

[pcas1986]

I thought it already does that, am I not clear?

The upload from with Content Manager apparently can do that but I've never used that method. I save to a CDP and then upload. I'm curious about what CM does in a situation when a route has 100's of dependencies.

Let me add that I have some sympathy for the main complaint as it can be frustrating. But I disagree with the proposed solution. The problems are generally caused by asset builders using assets that are not on the DLS or DLC/payware. I've been guilty of that.

There really should be a utility that a creator can run to analyse their asset and determine if the dependencies are on the DLS. TrainzUtil doesn't seem to do it.


Edit: CM already downloads (most) dependencies but I believe it has a problem with products used by industries and traincars.

 

[pcas1986]

Well, let me see......Route maker uploads the whole thing, deps included. Then the DLS sorts it all out and adds to the DLS items it does not already contain, if there errors, the DLS fires off a request for correction by the dep creator.

When you or I got to the DLS to download, it (the DLS) checks what we already have and only downloads what is needed.......

DaveL

I just created a cdp for one of my routes and it was 1.4mb. I then created a cdp for the route and all its dependencies and the file size is 848mb. Your solution is impractical.

 

[Vern]

There is also the issue of licensing. Some people do not upload assets to the DLS as they object to, 1. Relinquishing most of their intellectual property rights, 2. N3V can decide to use the item in commercial content with no obligation to pay a royalty and in some instances materials used may have been sourced from sites which do not permit commercial re-use, 3. Any Tom Dick or Bort85 can take your work, make a few changes, upload it as their own and N3V don't particularly give a hoot. That said, I am firmly in agreement the DLS should only accept routes for upload that use either built in content, items from the DLS or assets from official and available DLC.

 

[shaneturner12]

To be honest with you, the method is unworkable. Some assets that are used in DLS routes/sessions are payware, which for obvious reasons cannot be uploaded to the Download Station, and that's both N3V payware and JR/other people's payware as well.

What would be better in my opinion is a text file in the asset telling people where to get the missing content.

Shane

 

[Vern]

Not suggesting assets from DLC should be uploaded, as with TS2014 these are referenced from the player's install, so they would need to own them (or buy the route that has the assets). Quite right though Shane, information is the key and a responsible route builder should be noting what he/she has used and the first line of the readme should be: This route requires assets from other than built in or DLS, if that's the case.

 

[shaneturner12]

Makes sense, Vern. I was not specifically commenting on your post, although I should have quoted the OP's post to make things clearer.

I noticed that someone mentioned TrainzUtil further up. From memory, if you use the -a switch with the searchbycategory parameter. Details can be got for that using <trainz install folder>/bin/trainzutil.exe help at the command prompt (replace <trainz install folder> with your actual Trainz install path). In addition to this, trainzutil status <KUID> can be used, and looking for a capital D in the resulting output will tell you if it's a Download Station asset or not (a lower case D means it's not) - replace <KUID> with the actual KUID/KUID2.

Shane

 

[DaveL]

Shane,

Do you --really-- believe that asset creators would pay any attention to "You must include a text file with the location of every dep that you have used" ??
If you do, I have a very pretty golden colored bridge I will gladly sell to you.

Paul,

I see what you mean, but at least if you uploaded the 848meg file, everyone that downloaded it would have All the deps.
Now, I look at the 1.4mb route and think,"Ah, a small route", download it and spend untold hours tracking down the deps that make the route look soooo good.

Ya know, I would even settle for a place to go that would take a KUID and tell me where to get it.

Dave

 

[shaneturner12]

They would do if they wanted people to download their assets and actually use them. Most people will simply delete assets that have unknown dependencies.

Also, both Content Manager and the web-based upload system will not allow uploading of assets that are not yours.

Shane

 

[DaveL]

Shane,

Sorry, I was not aware of that restriction......I do not create and/or upload to the DLS.

Dave

 

[shaneturner12]

No problem - I believe the only exception to that restriction is if you are uploading fixed versions of assets that you have claimed under the DLS Cleanup project.

Shane

 

[wreeder]

Dave has a valid point. This is a problem that chases away new users. Just look at the threads in this forum. But on the other hand routes designed for multiplayer have the requirement that all assets be builtin or on the DLS and look how few of those routes are available. I'm like Dave, a former Razorback driver. I love driver sessions on smallish routes that take one hour or less to finish. Spotting cars and switching is fun to me. Driving a loco for hours only changing the throttle setting is as boring as watching paint dry. Outside of the Razorback Railway, I download very few sessions because of the missing dependencies problem. I want to spend my Trainz time having fun. Hunting down assets is not fun to me.

William

 

[shaneturner12]

I agree that he has a valid point as well, but it's not something that's going to go away whilst we have creators that will not/are unable to upload assets to the Download Station due to various reasons (licensing being one of the major reasons which is understandable), as well as the fact that some people will use payware regardless of whether their route/session is for the Download Station or for a third-party site.

Shane

 

[dragonharh]

Never mined I'm not going to bother say anything.

 

[DaveL]

Aww, c'mon on in Dragon......the water is barely warm !!

Dave

 

[wreeder]

I agree but Railworks/TS14 has many creators too and yet I can download a session from the Steam Workshop and not be troubled with the problem of missing assets. It just works. Maybe N3V should spend more time figuring out how to make Trainz a better experience for new users than stopping it from raining in tunnels. I want Trainz to survive and in order for that to happen we need to attract new users. Telling a new user that to use almost any route or session on the DLS is going to require them to go to dozens of websites where many of those sites require a login account is not realistic.

Maybe I have a different viewpoint so let me try to explain better. To me a session is like this: Take a loco, collect up some cars from the yard, drive down the mainline spotting those cars and picking up loaded cars along the way. Return to the yard. Notice that this could be done with all built-in content. But here is what sessions tend to be: Take the session creator's favorite loco that he got at Trainzitalia, pick up the string of cars that came from TPR, RRmods and USTrainz, drive down the mainline on track that came from a Russian Trainz site, dropping off cars at industries that came from Trainz Luvr which may or may not be online anymore. But first you have to find all those assets yourself. That isn't fun to me.

So to me it is what I do in a session that is important and not what I do it with. Am I to believe that all that 3rd party website content is needed to make the session realistic? Is the session an exact reproduction of one day on that railroad where those exact cars were moved? Or is the session just a series of choices the creator made without regard to the end user? Is the 3rd party website content so much better than what is on the DLS that I will be thankful for being force to download it? That is not my experience. Often after failing to find all the missing assets for a session I just delete everything I just downloaded.

Part of my job is building websites. There is a rule in web design that says don't make it hard to use the site by requiring a certain browser or plugin to view the site. Should not the same be true with Trainz routes and sessions? The bottom line for me is that if you want people to download and run your session or route, don't make it hard for them to do it.

William

 

[shaneturner12]

William - I agree with you, but unfortunately any attempts to restrict users who upload to the Download Station to only use content that's either built-in or on the Download Station isn't going to work, and may even harm payware providers in the process, as well as those who, due to licensing issues, cannot upload to the Download Station.

Another issue though is when people fail to patch their Trainz versions and then wonder why there's missing dependencies that others say are built-in.

Shane