The Beginning of the End?

Are N3V really likely to close the Forums?

If they did they’d lose the biggest shop windows and source of free advertising they could wish for – in particular the screenshots section.

Screenshots are open to public view without registration being needed and, almost without fail, is the most heavily viewed part of the whole shebang – all day, every day!

Mind you, the DLS was a great attraction as well!
:confused:
 
From a content creator's view the original question is an interesting one and not just relevant to Trainz but the other train sims too. I do wonder at times whether our hobby is approaching something of a crossroads.

The first issue is that depending on which way the wind is blowing I might want to spend time building in either Railworks or Trainz. Up until I got the new laptop however I couldn't use TS2009 or TS2010. These days I'm also far more vulnerable to inertia or distraction. The days of being prepared to sit down in my spare time and devote maybe 3 or 4 months to building a single route seem to have passed me by. There's loads of stuff I would like to build in both RW and Trainz, but making the leap from realisation to delivery has become increasingly difficult as the years go by. Sometimes the idea - or at least getting as far as the Transdem extraction and a bit of track laying (or the equivalent in RW) - is sound but a kind of mental block descends at the thought of all that blank terrain to fill out. So the project ends up deleted and I'm back to poring over maps and scouring Wikipedia for the next great idea.

For the same reason the issue of rivet counting hits a bit of a raw nerve. Producing a route to the level that some expect just makes it an impossible and thankless task which is why, I think, so many people making content in whichever sim have gone payware. Not a course of action I'm really contemplating but a royalty cheque for £1500 (minus tax) in the back packet goes some way to putting the brickbats into perspective.

Ultimately we have been doing this a long time and to some extent while there are higher expectations for the results, the methods haven't changed much since 2001 when we tentatively fired up Surveyor or the MSTS route editor. In some ways it's a shame MSTS2 (second attempt) collapsed as that would I think have transformed everything, with the World Of Rails concept, autogen (or bulk placement) scenery. What we got instead was Kuju's re-imagining of their stab at the first MSTS2 in the shape of Rail Simulator - which morphed into Railworks, not really any different in its approach to what had gone before. Running parallel with that Auran went through several sea changes with the direction of Trainz. First we had the announcement that TRS2006 was the last full version and that "Classics" was the way forward with focused and themed packs. Then they hurriedly backpedalled and TS2009 was rushed out, followed by the elevation of the "Engineer's Edition" addon into TS2010. Now we see a concerted attempt to put the past behind them with TS2012, but this will no doubt still contain all the (IMHO) shortcomings and issues which have plagued the series since its inception.

Ultimately what's needed is something radical and new, to take our hobby forward in the same way as MSTS and TRS usurped the text based sims of the 90's. But in all honesty, I don't see it happening.

Quick word on the forum. Things are certainly more laid back here than at UKTS or TS.com where the slightest deviation from the party line sees an outbreak of green moderator ink all over the place. Also if you look at the RW boards in particular at those places it's the same couple of dozen people churning over the same old discussion. If I could suggest one thing to the sponser and moderators of this forum, it is that they need to organise and tidy up a bit more. Threads along the lines of "Wow I Saw A Train Today...", should not be allowed to linger in anything but Prototype Talk. Quizes or surveys should be moved to Community. Whinging about the DLS seems to have died off a bit but such threads should be quitely moved out of the general areas into the DLS area and preferably merged with existing threads if appropriate. The text speak, gimmie pig or more juvenile threads I can generally weed out and ignore or have a little chuckle over.
 
Hi all,:wave:
I fully agree with mrscsi. What would happen if Auran/N3V stopped the DLS and their support? Well as far as the support goes; the answer would be “Not a lot”, it has not existed for a very long time; now as for DLS going, I for one do not think it would be the end of the world. I will be over the next few weeks, do what a lot of creators seem to be doing, and I will put everything that I ever sent to the DLS on my website for free download. If you look around as I have done lately you find some beautiful stuff to download from creators own websites. I have just downloaded some of pofig, s trees and stuff and they are better than you will find from Auran/N3V.

The other point is if you are worried about not being able to get a particular asset; then why not have a go at building them for yourself?
Blender and G-Max or such; Do I admit have a very steep learning curve, but it is so worth the effort when you see your first efforts actually working in Trainz.

I am thinking of hoisting other Trainz creator’s free assets on my web site. This will be a totally free service and will have full credits to the relevant creator.
If you are interested then PM me or go to my site and go to the Home/contact me page (It drops down from the home button)


Belkenn

http://belkenn.com/

I tend to get criticized for being blunt and direct in my opinions. My wife tells me I need to be more diplomatic, tried that with someone wanting me to create 100 miles TransDem map for them and it just didn't seem to sink in until I discarded her advice and went back to being my normal blunt and direct self:hehe:

I've had people tell me, "users most certainly do have a say in how a product gets developed" and in some cases that might be true. But in the real world, if I stopped by the produce stand, and I told the guy "you know I think you really need to grow your tomatoes this way instead of the way your growing them." I know what his response would be:D

He would tell me to by my tomatoes someplace else. Now of course if I could get every one of his customers (and I do mean everyone) to think the way that I did, he would have a decision to make. Listen to his customers or go out of business.

Now I'm going to impart a lesson hard learned from years of life, you're never going to get everybody to jump on board and demand the same thing. If you can, you always run the risk of the entity that you're trying to dictate to simply saying "screw you" and stop selling and supporting that product and put their time and effort and money into a different endeavor.

Most sane individuals that you're trying to elicit for your cause, are going to realize they're going to run that risk and they're going to remain satisfied with the status quo. This is why labor unions are predominantly in the minority of most workforces. Is rare indeed to see a labor union or a particular trade or skill that consists of 100% of the workforce.

Human nature is what it is, for every union worker you're going to find 10 who just want a job and who are more than happy to do it for less. It's called human nature. And while the intentions of some who seem to be worried about the state of the forums, content creators and Auran/N3V may or may not be pure and well-intentioned, getting 100% of the forum or even a majority of Trainz users to think as one is in my opinion something that is never going to happen…

Matter fact I can assure you it will never happen, because if you got every user of Trainz on your side, I would be the lone dissenting voice…

Why? Because when I find myself in a room full of people all thinking the same way, my understanding of human nature leads me to believe that prudent course of action would be 180° from where the herd is going:hehe:
 
Hi mrscsi,:wave:
I am sorry; but I have tried to get some relevance from your last post. Sorry but you leave me baffled.

Belkenn
 
Hi mrscsi,:wave:
I am sorry; but I have tried to get some relevance from your last post. Sorry but you leave me baffled.

Belkenn

Probably because I was getting caught up the the "group therapy" vibe of the thread and was more or less rambling...:confused:

I CAN and do poke fun at myself as well... (for those who think all I do is make fun of others serious issues)
 
Asset creation has got to be a very complicated affair. It's quite time consuming. Changing standards, and the lack of a single documented set of standards only drive content creator's to distraction! NV3's lack of alacrity in defining a universal set of standards for TS 09 and 10 content has contributed to the apparent apathy on the part of dedicated creators. Also, NV3's rather obtuse claim to other folks creations has driven many to 3rd party sites and and an exodus from the forums.
I think NV3 is the real culprit here!
Regards
 
Asset creation can be very involved. I have just scatched the surface on what I created so far.

I also agree with a previous poster about the Trainz wiki page. It needs to be finished and a bit easier to understand. As I said before the wiki pages reads like stereo instructions! it's a real head scratcher. :eek:
 
My soap box

What does concern me and it may be just me seeing things that are not there is that persons who have 3rd partied alliances with N3V seem to be in many ways above the law. I have observed that, if you have certain signature banners you can get away with over size images, being very rude, bulling and abusive to others and persons who mention their dislike of these person actions get jumped on by the moderators but not the at fault party.

I still can not understand how someone can show renders of up coming content pay item releases and there labelled as screenshots and are not posted in the pay wear sections.

Added to this, is the very grey area, that one part of the COC states that advertising is not allowed but at the same time there are many signal banners that are clearly advertising for a third party including links to 3rd party web sites.

As a retired Solicitor the very fact that you’re not allowed questioning the actions of any moderation or even mentioning in the forums anything about any moderated action, do set of great big alarm bells in the back of my mind. I may even have over stepped the mark by saying this and will stand corrected on that one if I have. Even our worst offenders are allowed their day in court with the opportunity to face there accuser and present a defence.
 
Hi All
I've sorta stayed out of this one, partly because there's been plenty of 'doom' threads before, which always peter out after a few days :)

For content creation, 90% (at a guess) of content is still valid. Sure, the 'goal posts' for 'current' standard (visual, and fancy features that other users want) have moved, but that's only really if you wish to create to the best of the software can offer (aka, push the boundaries). It's not a requirement set by us, although it is very nice to see this content created. As a creator who does try to push boundaries where I can (still learning many areas, as we all are), and try to 'match' the quality done by others where I can as well :) However, I do understand that there is a lot of work to get a project to that sort of level. Hence why I understand many creators seeing it as beyond their abilities. It does annoy me when I see talented creators hold themselves back, but this is their choice, and their content is still up there :)

What has changed is how strict error checking is... However, the majority of errors are more a case of people either not listening to what was said back in the early days, typos (not hard at all :) ), or using undocumented feature/functions. These are easy things to have done, and can be annoying. However, it's something that needs to be fixed, which is happening :)

Of course, there are a few areas that goal posts have moved in lately, mainly due to need so that the game engine can be improved. One is error checking, although this is more just become more strict on old rules, another is alpha channels (this is the biggest 'change' really), and another is steam locomotive physics/sounds (another 'big' change, but actually one that was requested for a number of years!). This will, as always, drive away a few members, however it will also bring in new members (sounds funny, but improvements made elsewhere by the alphas change does entice new members in - namely the ability to have higher quality models!).

There are others who have other reasons, however this has always been the case. As always, looking at the past we see it as much better than current. In reality, it's stayed fairly level for about 5 years now (IMO, some things on the forums have improved). Lately, I've noted an influx of new younger members, many of whom have not really had experience on forums. We haven't really had an influx like this for a few years, and it's likely due to the release of TS2010 (aka, a 'big' release) that this has occurred. TC1/2/3 were fairly small releases, and we didn't see as many new (younger) members join the forums during that time period because of this.

This isn't to say we didn't see new members, just that we saw less new members than before (at least this is what I've noticed personally). New, younger, members generally have less experience with forums (and with communities that include adult/older members), and as such tend to cause a bit of trouble. The majority learn fairly quickly how best to behave on the forums, mainly through example (yes, younger people do often learn by example :) ). There are those that need to be pushed in the right direction, however I feel the majority of the younger members in the community have done well in this area. I know I started out as one (I started as a user when I was about 12 or 13... I've certainly learned a lot on here since then!).

What I'm trying to say is that these forums always sit on the 'edge'. Sometimes they do tip a little further one way, or the other, but they generally tend to balance out. Sometimes mods need to help with this, however most of the time situations tend to sort themselves out.

We also do take into account comments from the community, both regarding the direction Trainz is headed (yes, including content), and with moderation :)

Apologies for the long post, however hopefully it helps answer some thoughts :)
 
Now, first, I apologise for the double post. However, I think I was pretty close to the character limit for the last post. Plus this needs some better explanation on a few things.

First, 3rd party groups that work with us... We attempt to be as fair as possible, and will take action as we feel is needed. Of course, some may not agree with this, however this is normal. There is also a limit as to how much we can take action on, and how strict we will be. Sometimes you may see what appears to be us singling out a user - normally this is based off past record more than anything else, or there may be a situation stemming from elsewhere that you may not have seen (e.g. from a previously removed thread/post). We do try to not single out anyone (either to allow them special treatment, or to be more harsh). That said, we are still human. If I feel I'm becoming to 'involved' with a situation, I will ask one of the other moderators (or one of the Trainz team) to look into it separately for me.

In regards to showing images of payware content in the screenshots forum, this forum is for ALL Trainz screenshots, and renders, etc. As per the COC, there is a more strict screenshot size limit outside of the screenshots than within the screenshots forum. In this case, to allow higher resolution images to be shown, we will allow payware in the screenshots forum. The main limit is showing payware in the freeware forum...


As to advertising... We allow a certain amount of advertising on the forums, since this helps both the community and N3V.

Specifically, the COC states the following:
Flooding the forums and chat with redundant messages, empty messages, advertisements, clearly irrelevant "+1 Post Count" messages, and/or nonsensical messages.

As it says, flooding the forums with...advertisements, etc. This is mainly aimed at spamming the forums, however can also cover repeated posts of the same ad time and again (outside of signatures here, since this appears under all of that user's posts). So far, I've not seen anything that would be considered 'flooding' the forums with advertisements, unless you look specifically within the payware forum section. Even then, there's rarely two posts from the same user with the exact same post (aka double/etc posts), and the majority of these are accidental. Some users do make separate posts for each new item, and this is fine. The only time that we would consider payware adds as being 'flooding the forums' is either if they get continually bumped (unless the bump is for an update on the thread/ a post), or if a person posts multiple of the same post intentionally.

As to questioning/commenting on moderation, I would recommend that you re-read the COC.

Interfering with, criticising and / or publicly commenting about moderation decisions. Messages commenting on or criticizing forum administrative actions will be removed without warning. Any complaints or disagreements regarding forum or chat room moderation should be made by contacting Helpdesk.

COC#19 is intended mainly to prevent flame wars from erupting when we do have to take action on a post (this has happened before). It doesn't mean you can't ask a question, such as yours, to clarify a section of the COC or to discuss how the rules effect the forums. In effect, your question is opening a discussion on the rule itself, not a specific moderator decision, hence doesn't breach the COC a fine line, but one that is fairly easy to steer clear of IMO.

As you say, you are allowed your day in "court". In this case, we do offer a variation o this. "Any complaints or disagreements regarding forum or chat room moderation should be made by contacting Helpdesk." In this case, criticizing a moderator's decision will also come under interfering with the decision, since it will cause other users to start attacking (including attacking other users). This in turn means that we will need to take further action, and the situation gets out of control. From this, we end up with multiple people with infringements, or bans, and who are rather angry and frustrated. On the other hand, by asking that complaints/disagreements go via the helpdesk, these situations are handled privately, and the situation generally won't escalate.

As a note, where a complaint/disagreement comes into the helpdesk regarding a decision I have made as a moderator, I will attempt to be impartial. If I am not able to look at the situation clearly, I will ask another of the Trainz team to look at it for me. In many situations, the punishment will still stand if the infringement is clear, however there are cases where the punishment will be reduced/reversed.

I hope this clears a few things up for you :)
 
Universal law is an action requires a reaction
if you don't want the reaction don't make the action
if you give it you better be able to take it
 
I've been playing with Trainz for about 3 weeks now, and what I find most frustrating is the lack of a "Mod Workshop" on this forum.
 
I've only been using Trainz a few months and love it. Be patient as this forum has members that can help you with most problems. I see you also have T2010 so go to the 2010 sub-forum and make a post of your problems and the people there will help you. Please be polite though as their a great group and should be thanked for their help.

Dave
 
C'mon Bearcat you can do better then that
What's Bearcat got to do with this?

I guess that I'll throw in my 2 cents worth to this debate.
At the moment your 2 cents is worth less than the Australian 2 cents, and their is no Australian 2 cents now, so your post is not worth anything!! :hehe:

In regards to showing images of payware content in the screenshots forum, this forum is for ALL Trainz screenshots, and renders, etc.
I thought the screenshot section was to show off what people have, and thought that if you want advertise your payware stuff via screenshots, that you need to go the payware section.

As per the COC, there is a more strict screenshot size limit outside of the screenshots than within the screenshots forum.
Couldn't fool me, their are many screenshots that are well over the maximum screenshot dimensions in the screenshot section. But at the same time, screenshots can be too small, if they are under say 800 or 640 wide.

The main limit is showing payware in the freeware forum
Their should be no payware whatsoever in the freeware section.

As for advertisments, I get them everytime I open this forum :hehe:

(aka double/etc posts), and the majority of these are accidental.
This is one reason why we should be able to delete our own posts, if not answered yet.

I agree that some valid points are brought up in this thread. For example, I still see signatures that are well over (& I mean way way over) the height limit. I have seen them as high as almost 300 pixels in height. You report the post, and nothing seems to get done.

Isn't their a way for this style of forum (vBulletin) to automatically adjust signatures & screenshots to the required set limit? If it allows different style of text (unlike others) then surely their is a way.

Another thing I seem to note, is that some completely off topics seem to be allowed at times, but other off topics not.
 
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What's Bearcat got to do with this?

I'm only guessing here, but I think that Bearcat is being suspected of posting under another user name, in this very thread. I would further guess that the suspicious poster mentioned signature picture sizes in their post...
 
Zec,

Does the above post violate CoC 14?

14.....
The discussion of race, religion and politics; using expressions or language in messages that are considered foul, vulgar, hateful, bigoted, sexually harassing, racially offensive, or are in any way discriminatory. Whether the discussion or expression falls within this definition will be determined at the discretion of N3V staff and/or N3V appointed forum moderators.

Regards,

Speaking of such. Pod racing is lame! I hate Jedis and I think the Galactic Republic sucks, I'm glad they were replaced with the Galactic Empire. The views of the rebel alliance are heavily flawed.
 
I've only been using Trainz a few months and love it. Be patient as this forum has members that can help you with most problems. I see you also have T2010 so go to the 2010 sub-forum and make a post of your problems and the people there will help you. Please be polite though as their a great group and should be thanked for their help.

Dave

I didn't mean to be disrespectful of anyone. A recurring theme in this thread has been the grooming of more content creators. Take a look at the Total War Center. It's the forum for the Total War series of games. Each game has a section called "Mod Workshop." It has tutorials, walkthroughs, how-to's, and tools. All the information is right there in one place. I think something like that here, would help ease the learning curve, and get more people deeper into the creation process.
 
My wife tells me I need to be more diplomatic...

Hi, dear guy,

:hehe: I'm not your beloved wife... but... have you tried to be more... hypocritical? It helps a lot, I assure you... ;) Above all, bearing in mind we all are customers and guests at this home and not owners...

2. These forums are lacking tolerance and respect to opinions from others. 'Ridiculous' and 'rubbish' are used too often on these forums to reject humble well-intended comments from others. The principles of "Silence is golden" and "Public Forums need some hypocritical human behaviour" when tempted to massacre somebody are often forgotten. :hehe: I myself would sometimes like to
strangle.gif
some posters but... I have my own load of hypocrisy on.

Have a good Monday, if having a good Monday is possible somewhere...

The sensible hypocritical side of Alberte :wave:

===========================================================================================

My euro worth for other dear ones:

What is sometimes a bit -just a little bit because I take it on one of my lightest sides- annoying and disturbing the pleasant going-on of these forums is the presence of uninvited apocryphal mods trying to give lessons of whoknowswhat... There is still this flamboyant
report.gif
icon to report whateveroddthingsyouwanttoreport. The only thing that going public with apocryphal moderating yields is more
brawl.gif
fighting, anger and disruption.

Code:
...and/or N3V appointed forum moderators...

The euro worth side of Alberte :wave:
 
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