Auran at present doesn't allow faulty content to be uploaded to the DLS. If they really wanted to get tough perhaps they could give creators a certain time to correct and update any faulty assets, or Auran will remove them. Probably a good idea really, who enjoys spending a lot of time correcting other's errors?
TC3 Signalling System
- Thread starter Ian_Coleman
- Start date
Apologies if the 'love' was a bit too 'tough' for some here. What I actually mean is that what we should be aiming for is to get everyone using the same version of the game and to move people on from UTC, TRS04 (and I guess TRS06 as well).
This may not work for TC3, but for TS2009 there should be a 'certified' set of assets which either come with the game or are available from a reformed DLS. Assets which are not TS09 certified (ie. are considered not to work in TS09) should be removed from the DLS. And only assets and layouts which feature the TS09 build number should be uploadable to the DLS.
This does not preclude people transferring their old assets and layouts from 04 and 06 into the new version of the game (backward compatibility is promised, after all). But if they want to share their stuff with anyone else (through the DLS) then they should have to comply with the TS09 standard, for which purpose they will need to buy the game first.
Hopefully, TS09 will be so good that everyone rushes to abandon the old obsolete versions of Trainz in any case (well, we can dream!) :hehe:
This may not work for TC3, but for TS2009 there should be a 'certified' set of assets which either come with the game or are available from a reformed DLS. Assets which are not TS09 certified (ie. are considered not to work in TS09) should be removed from the DLS. And only assets and layouts which feature the TS09 build number should be uploadable to the DLS.
This does not preclude people transferring their old assets and layouts from 04 and 06 into the new version of the game (backward compatibility is promised, after all). But if they want to share their stuff with anyone else (through the DLS) then they should have to comply with the TS09 standard, for which purpose they will need to buy the game first.
Hopefully, TS09 will be so good that everyone rushes to abandon the old obsolete versions of Trainz in any case (well, we can dream!) :hehe:
Not at all - you can transfer your layout from 06 to TC3 and then upload it as a TC3 layout making full use of the more advanced features to be found there, particularly the signalling.
The thing is that people will need TC3 to be able to download your layout and use it - but that's precisely the inducement needed to move people on, particularly from TRS04.
I have one layout that is at a fairly advanced stage and another (using DEM) that's coming along.
I don't want to upload either of them in TRS06 as I think this represents the past, not the future of Trainz. The first layout looks like a candidate for uploading in TC3 and the other, perhaps for TS09.
Obviously, like everyone else, I'm waiting to see how good TC3 is (though I'm hopeful bearing in mind the quality of the team working on it).
If all early versions were removed from the DLS I would not spend another cent buying a new version after wasting money on 2006, for a crappy unreliable game.
I will stay with 2004 and just download as much content as I could before they dump it.
Smacks of mircrosoft with constant replacement versions instead of upgrades.
LONG LIVE 2004
Mike
I will stay with 2004 and just download as much content as I could before they dump it.
Smacks of mircrosoft with constant replacement versions instead of upgrades.
LONG LIVE 2004
Mike
johnwhelan
Well-known member
If all early versions were removed from the DLS I would not spend another cent buying a new version after wasting money on 2006, for a crappy unreliable game.
I will stay with 2004 and just download as much content as I could before they dump it.
Smacks of mircrosoft with constant replacement versions instead of upgrades.
LONG LIVE 2004
Mike
If you actually look at some of the TRS2004 content that's where you'll see crap. There are a large number of items that have major errors in the config.txt file, I've see missing texture files etc. A fair chunk is to put it bluntly broken. When TRS2004 basically gets to something it doesn't understand and gives up on the rest of the features that were supposed to be present.
At least one TRS2004 content creator when contacted about errors in the item said it "runs in the game" so what if it doesn't follow the content creator's guidelines. The so what is having something that a computer program can understand and thus give it's best performance.
Oh and don't try to put too many load points on for pallets of bricks etc. or use too many scripts TRS2004 isn't that stable in those circumstances, nor is it simple to ron under Vista. You don't want Vista? What happens when your hardware breaks down? Getting XP on a new machine is getting more and more difficult.
Cheerio John
According to Auran, and their posts over at the Dev site, the DS is going to get a real good clean, and any faulty content will be fixed by the Author, fail in that it will be fixed by Auran, and if neither is possible, then the asset will be kicked off the DS.
Any routes that use these faulty assets will be treated to the same process, and again, if it's not possible to fix the route without those faulty assets, then the route will suffer the same fate, and be kicked off.
This also applies to dependencies of dependencies, etc.
Although it's a lot of hard work, I applaud them for this stance, and welcome it 100%.
Also, from what I understand, a lot of the simple errors like incorrect asset type in the config will result in the asset being rejected for upload.
Excellent!
No more routes marked as session, or sessions marked as buildings!
If the standards are moving on, then we should be glad of it, and accept that there are going to be casualties along the way.
If Auran concentrate too much on backwards compatibility, then this sim is never going to be able to move on.
Oh, and you'll get the new signalling features if you buy the new product.
That's the way it goes.
Smiley.
Any routes that use these faulty assets will be treated to the same process, and again, if it's not possible to fix the route without those faulty assets, then the route will suffer the same fate, and be kicked off.
This also applies to dependencies of dependencies, etc.
Although it's a lot of hard work, I applaud them for this stance, and welcome it 100%.
Also, from what I understand, a lot of the simple errors like incorrect asset type in the config will result in the asset being rejected for upload.
Excellent!
No more routes marked as session, or sessions marked as buildings!
If the standards are moving on, then we should be glad of it, and accept that there are going to be casualties along the way.
If Auran concentrate too much on backwards compatibility, then this sim is never going to be able to move on.
Oh, and you'll get the new signalling features if you buy the new product.
That's the way it goes.
Smiley.
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the alterations to the Trainz programming over the years has possibly produced many of the so called errors.... It depends on how trainz is programmed. Unfortunately the current attitude towards freeware content, seems different to what it was a few years ago and I imagine with all the negative comments on these forums there will be quite a few less freeware content producers and possibly more payware, or people making use of other sites to make their content available as a free service to others............ If I should start making content again I will not be putting it on the DS again. Barry
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Not at all - you can transfer your layout from 06 to TC3 and then upload it as a TC3 layout making full use of the more advanced features to be found there, particularly the signalling.
The thing is that people will need TC3 to be able to download your layout and use it - but that's precisely the inducement needed to move people on, particularly from TRS04.
Yes but for others to use it they will have to understand the process to import default content across from 06 to TC3 which I'm not sure I do myself.
And now that TRS2009 etc. have been announced, as I said earlier on Trainz Classics is essentially a deviation from the main Trainz development path. It's on a par with the West Somerset add on. Some new ideas but essentially a standalone route/rolling stock pack based on the TRS game engine. Forget TC3 as a platform, 06 to 09 will be the upgrade though I assume that 09 will be based in part on the advances we are hoping are in TC3.
The point is, 06 is still the official full version of Trainz. Yes Auran were woffling a couple of months ago about 04 and 06 users being "former" customers but they seem to have changed that view since the announcement of 09 and X. I think they realised forcing users over to TC with its limited built in content and other issues was probably going to be commercial suicide.
By all means clean up the DLS, but I think they could be heading for a tech support nightmare. People will be pulling routes and content or having same deleted, maybe starting to use third party sites such as UKTS or Train-sim.com to upload. However downloaders will then have the battle to find the missing assets. Some will be default "broken" 06 content which has not made it into 09. Some will be third party items that have been pulled or deleted from the DLS and may/may not be available elsewhere. If this comes to pass, it may be that the TRS community will have to embrace the concept of route packs - i.e. containing all the third party assets (not sure about any default 06 content) in the cdp when uploaded.
And the whole point is, we are not talking about items people have created in five minutes. We are talking about labours of love, painstakingly put together over long weeks, even months (rule of thumb for a route is 1 - 2 hours per km) which may be arbitrarily trashed.
If you're going to have backward compatability then that needs to extend to everything.
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How far back ? Surely not to Pre 1.3
. A line needs to drawn in the sand .. see the this quoteIf the standards are moving on, then we should be glad of it, and accept that there are going to be casualties along the way.
If Auran concentrate too much on backwards compatibility, then this sim is never going to be able to move on.
.
Smiley.
You can't have your cake and eat it too .
Sci
Quite the opposite to what I'm thinking.
I stopped creating models and Rules/Driver commands for Trainz a long time ago because:
- CMP is a pain
- No working Exporter for the versions of Max I use
- Lack of support from anyone wearing an Auran badge
- Dwindling community spirit
- DLS a mess and very unreliable
Auran have addressed most of these already with the Dev site, releasing beta versions of the exporters, communication both ways via the dev forums, and the promise of a clean, working DLS with a stable and non-intrusive CMP to work along with it.
If they push forward the same way they've started, and prove to us it's not just marketing, then most of the things that have stopped me contributing to Trainz for the past 2 years will be gone, and I can enjoy the hobby again.
Well, if they fix the DS the way they say they're going to, then I'll have no problem with uploading to the DS.
However, if they don't, then I'll also be using my website to distribute them, but I can assure you that I have no intention of charging money for any of it.
I don't see how you can see there will be more payware.
Less freeware maybe, but not more payware.
Although the rest of this post is slightly off-topic, I'm going to say it anyway, because the topic of backwards compatibility has been touched on.
Maybe Auran should start a new thread, or even a poll, on what people want to see from backwards compatibility.
Anyway,
Auran need to decide whether to allow those people dragging their heels regarding compatibility to hold the progression of the sim up.
We've already heard that within the new version of Trainz, you'll be able to choose whether to use the standard 10m grid or the new 5m grid, so I imagine that Trainz routes going back to at least TRS2004 will be able to be loaded into the new sims, and then people can convert the route to the 5m grid and tweak the landscape to take advantage of this finer grid.
I also assume that the textures used will be carried over, and set initially to the 10m grid square (unless you've used faulty textures).
The way I see it is that it makes sense to allow routes created in TRS2004/TRS2006/TC1,2,3 to be loaded into TRS2009/X, loading them into the standard 10m grid baseboard to start with, but I think it's really too much to expect them to allow all the faulty content to be loaded too, and I would hope that importing one of these routes into TRS2009/X would automatically delete any references to faulty content in the route, so that the imported route is ready to be saved in TRS2009/X without any errors or faults carried over.
So, in short, you'd definitely get all your landscaping and ground painting carried over, and any objects that met the new criteria for content would also be carried over.
Let's not forget that if you're using TRS2004, you could use TrainzObjectz to replace any assets that were known to be faulty, with safe ones before importing to TRS2009/X, and you could do the same with TrainzMap if you were using TRS2006, although I think to a lesser extent.
Or you could do it by hand.
What's the point of releasing a route that people using the new version of Trainz will not be able to use because you've allowed faulty content to be referenced.
As for spending months on routes only to be told that some of it may not be carried over, if nothing else, it shows that a new standard needs to be set now so that subsequent versions of Trainz are future-proof in this regard.
As long as you don't need to start the route from scratch, and only need to pay attention to some areas, then I think that's a small price to pay for a standard that will allow the Trainz franchise to move on.
Discuss. lol :hehe:
Smiley.
Snipped ... Much that I agree with
Discuss. lol :hehe:
Smiley.
Discuss huh :hehe: ... Somehow I get the feeling that only the critics ( :wave: ) see change as a good thing .... it's nice to actually feel positive about Auran and the way things seem to be headed ... gawd ,, I'm on the other side of the fence,,lmao
Sci
Okay maybe not back to 1. 3/UTC or even for that matter 004. But TRS006 is still the current full working version of Trainz and that needs to be taken into account.
If a line is to be drawn then maybe Auran need to be looking at TRS2009 being the last version with guaranteed backward compatibility with 006 etc. TRS-X will then become the new version which will require developers to make a fresh start. That gives third party creators two years (maybe) to finish their creations, upload them for others to share etc. If as Smiley suggests, the basic terrain and track can be imported into X then that is a bonus. I would say some form of a built in object changer is a must for 009 and X - I do miss Trainz Objectz working in 006 as opposed to 004.
From another point of view, I know my MSTS1 routes won't work/import to MSTS2 when it comes out but then MSTS2 is a completely new sim, using different code and written by a whole new group of people. TRS on the other hand is essentially the same code and graphics we started out with in 2001 and it looks like TRS2009 despite the enhancements will still essentially be the same game engine - the Emperor's New Clothes (again) as it is disparagingly referred to in some quarters. TRS-X maybe might be something a bit different.
That still leaves the issue of how Auran manage 006 and earlier stuff on the DLS post X, but other download sites have stuff going back to 2002 for MSTS etc. so I'm sure there must be some scope to support the legacy users even if the content isn't going to work in X. Maybe the legacy stuff will be restricted to those with a FCT (so Auran are guaranteed some revenue) or access to both the 009/X and legacy servers commands a slightly higher subscription. It will be interesting to see if Auran also regard the TC series as "legacy" once 009/X come out...
At this point in time, Auran have a golden opportunity to seize the hearts and minds of the greater train-simming fraternity. KRS is still struggling to establish itself and technically somewhat complex. MSTS2 still largely unknown but strong suspicions MS are biting off more than they can chew with "World of Rails." World of Subways although graphically looking awesome appears to be based on standalone routes with no sandbox for the user element. Purging the DLS is the last thing Auran would want to do in these favourable circumstances with the risk of alienating many existing users and potential new recruits.
If a line is to be drawn then maybe Auran need to be looking at TRS2009 being the last version with guaranteed backward compatibility with 006 etc. TRS-X will then become the new version which will require developers to make a fresh start. That gives third party creators two years (maybe) to finish their creations, upload them for others to share etc. If as Smiley suggests, the basic terrain and track can be imported into X then that is a bonus. I would say some form of a built in object changer is a must for 009 and X - I do miss Trainz Objectz working in 006 as opposed to 004.
From another point of view, I know my MSTS1 routes won't work/import to MSTS2 when it comes out but then MSTS2 is a completely new sim, using different code and written by a whole new group of people. TRS on the other hand is essentially the same code and graphics we started out with in 2001 and it looks like TRS2009 despite the enhancements will still essentially be the same game engine - the Emperor's New Clothes (again) as it is disparagingly referred to in some quarters. TRS-X maybe might be something a bit different.
That still leaves the issue of how Auran manage 006 and earlier stuff on the DLS post X, but other download sites have stuff going back to 2002 for MSTS etc. so I'm sure there must be some scope to support the legacy users even if the content isn't going to work in X. Maybe the legacy stuff will be restricted to those with a FCT (so Auran are guaranteed some revenue) or access to both the 009/X and legacy servers commands a slightly higher subscription. It will be interesting to see if Auran also regard the TC series as "legacy" once 009/X come out...
At this point in time, Auran have a golden opportunity to seize the hearts and minds of the greater train-simming fraternity. KRS is still struggling to establish itself and technically somewhat complex. MSTS2 still largely unknown but strong suspicions MS are biting off more than they can chew with "World of Rails." World of Subways although graphically looking awesome appears to be based on standalone routes with no sandbox for the user element. Purging the DLS is the last thing Auran would want to do in these favourable circumstances with the risk of alienating many existing users and potential new recruits.
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johnwhelan
Well-known member
Auran basically does the programming to create the game engine, we create the content. TC is the latest and most current game engine and you can load in the TRS2006 content.
TRS2006 is not the "current" most up to date code.
Cheerio John
Unfortunately I know nothing about programming but notice the reference to the outdated game engine of trainz.... How do we know what the future potential of the game engine can be.... or to undertand what it could be capable of or limited to is beyond my knowledge........... But the coding keeps getting changed in dribs and drabs to improve the speed or frame rates etc. When trainz first started, Surveyor if I remember correctly used to grind to a halt when a route reached 10 miles or so..... Can game engines be altered in patches or does everthing have to be rewritten taking a year or more and then how do we know what the result would be...or perhaps by then outdated by new technology..... Anyway leave all that to the younger generation for future years... Best to make use of what is being offered in the short term within a year or so is OK for me anyway. Barry
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ianwoodmore
Active member
Backwards Compatability
Most of the broken assets are fixable, so you would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, and the majority of assets are marked trainzbuild TRS04 or UTC not later versions.
While allowing you to import what you like into TC from earlier versions was good, CMP still reported all the available assets, including those that are not downloadable from DLS because it can't find them. The biggest blunder was chopping out the TRS06 builtins. Yes, some were faulty but they are fixable and I did fix them. Yes, some can be imported but not the locked ones. So, many layouts and sessions cannot run in TC1 and TC2 and you have to maintain more than one version of Trainz on your computer. Now I know there are 1 terabyte hard drives these days, and I'm going to need one very soon if we don't have a separate TAD or local folder that's accessible from all versions of Trainz from TRS04 onwards. What I don't need and many don't have space for is duplicated local folders with tens of gigabytes of assets in each.
I've fixed nearly 17,000 or somewhere between 15% and 20% of the assets on my computer which includes many from external websites that are also shown as faulty in CMP. Some of these are on TARL. Unfortunately some seem to have disappeared in the move of TARL to its new website. However, it is my intent to upload all the fixits progressively. I estimate it will take me best part of a year to complete the uploads.
This does not eliminate the faults on DLS. In most cases replacing the config.txt with a purged and correct version will overcome many problems. But there are errors in image sizes as well as types of images.
SO, do not under any circumstances purge all the old assets off DLS whether they are faulty or not. You will lose the Trainz legacy and most of your creators too. Creators hate correcting their earlier work as they are more interested in pushing the boundaries of the new functionality. This is important to the longterm success of the game. So don't waste this precious resource. I'm not one of them unfortunately.
Fixing the faults has for the most part been done to a level where it no longer brings CMP into disrepute. It's nauseous boring work which you shouldn't waste time repeating. It has taken me and others of the Fixit Brgade many thousands of hours of work. What we need now is a strategy that allows the DLS and TARL to overcome this situation in the most civilised way while retaining the majority of the assets currently on DLS. Also bear in mind that the DLS is probably less than half of the total assets created. The rest are on external websites.
Most of the broken assets are fixable, so you would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, and the majority of assets are marked trainzbuild TRS04 or UTC not later versions.
While allowing you to import what you like into TC from earlier versions was good, CMP still reported all the available assets, including those that are not downloadable from DLS because it can't find them. The biggest blunder was chopping out the TRS06 builtins. Yes, some were faulty but they are fixable and I did fix them. Yes, some can be imported but not the locked ones. So, many layouts and sessions cannot run in TC1 and TC2 and you have to maintain more than one version of Trainz on your computer. Now I know there are 1 terabyte hard drives these days, and I'm going to need one very soon if we don't have a separate TAD or local folder that's accessible from all versions of Trainz from TRS04 onwards. What I don't need and many don't have space for is duplicated local folders with tens of gigabytes of assets in each.
I've fixed nearly 17,000 or somewhere between 15% and 20% of the assets on my computer which includes many from external websites that are also shown as faulty in CMP. Some of these are on TARL. Unfortunately some seem to have disappeared in the move of TARL to its new website. However, it is my intent to upload all the fixits progressively. I estimate it will take me best part of a year to complete the uploads.
This does not eliminate the faults on DLS. In most cases replacing the config.txt with a purged and correct version will overcome many problems. But there are errors in image sizes as well as types of images.
SO, do not under any circumstances purge all the old assets off DLS whether they are faulty or not. You will lose the Trainz legacy and most of your creators too. Creators hate correcting their earlier work as they are more interested in pushing the boundaries of the new functionality. This is important to the longterm success of the game. So don't waste this precious resource. I'm not one of them unfortunately.
Fixing the faults has for the most part been done to a level where it no longer brings CMP into disrepute. It's nauseous boring work which you shouldn't waste time repeating. It has taken me and others of the Fixit Brgade many thousands of hours of work. What we need now is a strategy that allows the DLS and TARL to overcome this situation in the most civilised way while retaining the majority of the assets currently on DLS. Also bear in mind that the DLS is probably less than half of the total assets created. The rest are on external websites.
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I didn't say it was John.
It is the most current up to date full version of the game. Yes the content of 006 can be imported into TC but it is not a process supported or condoned by Auran nor is it necessarily something the average user could achieve. While I may import TRS006 into TC3 when it arrives for my own personal use, I would not develop for Trainz in TC3 on the expectation that someone wanting to run my route will then have to faff about transferring content. I will continue to develop my routes in TRS2006 until TRS2009 arrives, unless it is a project that would be suited to the limited content of TC3 + DLS items.
However coming back to the original post, I would not expect the TC3 signalling improvements to be ported back to TRS2006 - in any event I'm reasonably happy with the 006 signalling (a damn sight better than KRS!!).
TRS2006 is still on sale in a wide variety of outlets (including Auran's own shop) which IMHO makes it far from dead or superceded.
I maintain, I think we will see 006 to 009 become the main and supported upgrade path - TC is a diversion which is well worth supporting and may be a basis for 009, but it's not canon.
Backwards....schmackwards.
Really, what does it matter if 2009 has any back wards compatibility at all? There is so much content that is badly made (most of it mine), it is bound to gunk up the gears.
I also fixed thousands of pieces of content when I moved everything over to 2006, but I fear most users did not bother, and I'm confident most again won't bother for 2009. I believe there is a percentage of 2004 stalwarts that remained with 2004 to AVOID having to fix content.
I'm for a level playing field....give us a platform that is so innovative and capable that the holdouts will have to embrace it. Let's start over and build new content capable of using the new 2009 features. If a creator wants to update his or her creations, then that's swell, if not, let them fade into the halls of Trainz Past. They should not weep, for there will always be those that lurk in the dark corners playing UTC, 2004, 2006, TC, and even the original CE for all I know! The feasting halls may fill with revelers, and the torches may shine bright upon the LCDs filled with 2009, but in the twisting catacombs and dank cellars the 2004 resistance will carry on.
Let us wipe clean the slate, give us features and documentation and exporters, fulfill our thirst for one platform at the cutting edge of Train Sim technology, and let the artisans fill the market square with state of the art goods for our perusal.
Really, what does it matter if 2009 has any back wards compatibility at all? There is so much content that is badly made (most of it mine), it is bound to gunk up the gears.
I also fixed thousands of pieces of content when I moved everything over to 2006, but I fear most users did not bother, and I'm confident most again won't bother for 2009. I believe there is a percentage of 2004 stalwarts that remained with 2004 to AVOID having to fix content.
I'm for a level playing field....give us a platform that is so innovative and capable that the holdouts will have to embrace it. Let's start over and build new content capable of using the new 2009 features. If a creator wants to update his or her creations, then that's swell, if not, let them fade into the halls of Trainz Past. They should not weep, for there will always be those that lurk in the dark corners playing UTC, 2004, 2006, TC, and even the original CE for all I know! The feasting halls may fill with revelers, and the torches may shine bright upon the LCDs filled with 2009, but in the twisting catacombs and dank cellars the 2004 resistance will carry on.
Let us wipe clean the slate, give us features and documentation and exporters, fulfill our thirst for one platform at the cutting edge of Train Sim technology, and let the artisans fill the market square with state of the art goods for our perusal.
ijzersmidt
New member
Pure poetry Ed ... pure poetry and I support your opinion.