Talks to extend Borders Railway to Hawick and Carlisle

Hi there John. I raised this line via a thread here here a while ago giving the news and intention so happy to get back into the subject.

It was closed away back in the days of Dr Beeching's review of passenger rail back in the 1960's and during the time of State control. Originally there was a network of lines in the Borders but that "Waverley Route" was slightly different in that it crossed the country from Edinburgh in a wide angle all the way across to Carlisle over the Border in England. There was a strong campaign against that line being closed and included a sit-on the line at one point and the local MP called by the police to try and encourage them to move to let the passenger train by! What really teed me of about British railways was that there was a move to form a voluntary railway preservation society to have the route yet British Rail totally refused? Considering it would have cost them nothing a really pointless thing and these days with rail back in private hands doing far better than BR did.

Now the lady who led the fight against closure is still around and a good age but she never gave in so well done to her. The re-opened bit to just beyond the nice town of Galashiels - around 32 miles or so is within budget, planning and building times so a pleasant change all round. I intended a repeat thread on progress towards the re-opening so you have beat me on that one but there were comments from some people on towns beyond Galashiels on the deserted bit to Carlisle for them to be included. That old lady has told them to do what she and her friends did for ages!

Beyond the end of the re-opening part the track bed is still completely there and I think the only zilch is a very short tunnel which has a problem but not insurmountable. One wonders if it would be economical to continue eventually south west so I dare say the people in the further towns wil be watching with interest on the September re-opening of what is the longest such project in the whole of Great Britain. Like between Edinburgh and Galashiels there has been population increase and I think that the route will do well and here is a bit of great news in that steam trains will be temporarily included amongst the DMU's! This will be right after re-opening week BUT for 4 weeks there will be a steam train twice a week to add to the excitement. As for me I will wait beyond the day of the opening as it will be crowded. Any further building depends on what those people I mention doing what the others did and fight. That would be great.

Bobby
 
I will watch "my thread" for progress because I'm sure the folks down the line will feel a bit left out without the train service, especially the running with the steam trains. :)

Over here we have New Hampshire and Maine who do what they can to fight any rail progress even though there is enthusiasm for it. Maine's governor went as far as attempting to nearly eliminate the rail budget for the new train to Brunswick Maine. The line to Vermont is partly owned by Maine and New Hampshire now, and has been partly restored in places. The famous Conway Scenic, a preserved railroad interest, runs on the Notch section of the line, however, the rest of the line on either side of this operational section is dormant and has been since the mid-1980s. The state of New Hampshire will not spend a dime on railways and has let other corridors give way to trail interests instead. Let's hope this doesn't happen to this line.

Like the BR the company that once owned the line refused to give up the tracks to anyone else, and went as far as to rip up portions to prevent anyone from operating on it. If this line was restored, it would bring ski traffic in the winter plus all the leaf peeping tourists in the autumn. If the line is expanded to St. Johnsbury Vermont, it would provide a connection to the Montrealer so people can transfer to a Montreal, QB, Canada-bound train which runs up from New York City.

It's interesting how once service is restored other areas want the trains too. This did happen in Maine once the Downeaster service was implemented from Boston to Portland. Even with their governor's budget cut threats, their local government overrode his budget cut and put more money on the rail service. The line has been recently extended to Brunswick and there's talk of going up to the state capitol Augusta and beyond.

John
 
I often feel that you are less fortunate over there regarding rail will especially passenger stuff. We also seem to have perhaps a greater preserved line tradition too? In the north of the kingdom here we have had re-openings that have been tremendously successful. In fact they have included places where the actual passenger expectancy was much higher and broke the target. The Borders Railway will I think be another rail success story for an area that one had a network of almost it's own. Some years ago i took a Boys' Brigade camp to Melrose twice and the old rail station was intact beside the gone line. Even the ballast was still there as a couple of us walked along the trackbed to Galashiels a few miles away. We also crossed a great viaduct south of Melrose (ssh, don't tell anyone we climbed the fence blocking it!).

Now you are able John to read minds and beat my intended thread I will look forward to seeing you on television!

What really surprised both my friend and I was that the then Galashiels Railway station was completely intact. Station Master's office, waiting rooms,. signs, etc. All gone now of course. the opening celebration being given the staeam trips as well as the regular DMU's will of course boost things. Now here is a bit more news.

That lady I mentioned who led the blcking away back on the last day at a level crossing then fought for decades to get ithe line back has been noted. She is 87 now and both her and members of her family have been treated to a train rde on the steam one before the opening. Good for her and deserved. Now what really makes me wonder is whether anyone will do what she and all the others did and got that 30 plus miles back extended further. :hehe:
 
Excellent news! Wonderful to hear about steam operations, I wonder if they could make that a regular thing, every year for a few weeks in summer? It would certainly drive up tourism.
Also, if they can reopen 32 miles of railway in Scotland, they can reopen the Woodhead line between Hadfield and Peniston as well. C'Mon, government!
 
Having recently returned from Scotland via the A7 I was amazed at the work put in to resurrect the line so far its like a brand new railway and so landscaped now with good views from and of the train. While travelling I saw a class 170 presumably on driver training as it was a Sunday. It should certainly add value to any of the towns along the route. and watch house prices rise as a result ! Well done to Scotland to get the project on time, on budget, Maybe there are lessons to be learned !

Nathan Mallard you might want to read this ! re the Woodhead line http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33644335
 
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Can I say to you both nathanmallard and steviez that this re-opening has been a great project. During the building it was within time allotment and within the cost and this in itself makes it unique! When the Stirling - Alloa Branch was also re-opened from decades of being lost the passenger numbers broke the target. The Larkhall Branch was another brought back from the 60's, electrified and attached to the greater Glasgow network. Mind you there were some people in Stonehouse beyond Larkhall a bit sad it didn't go out to them as the old track bed is still there but to be honest the village wouldn't be worth the expense!

That a Scottish Government Minister is even happy to be involved in discussion about a possibility re-continuing the Borders Line down to Hawick and right across to Carlisle is something to note. Makes a pleasant change from the usual guff from the Edinburgh parliament. Along from Edinburgh to just beyond Galashiels at the Tweedale buffers there is a lot more of a population and will be a boost. To one day get the rest of the line back to Carlisle would do the same for Hawick and other Border rural points.

Of course I will be looking forward to my trip when the line re-opens and now timetables are even available so roll on September and this loyal Glaswegian will forget he has to go to Edinburgh to get the Galashiels train but my consolation is I won't have to leave Waverley station just change platforms!!
 
It's truly excellent that we are now finally starting to reverse the mistakes made 50 years ago; the foresight the Scottish government have shown in rebuilding the line is wonderful as it is inevitable that petrol prices will rise eventually and trains will be very much "back in fashion". The UK government can help by cutting ticket prices, it might be more expensive short term but would bring plenty of long term benefits.
Re Woodhead, why build a road tunnel? They are already roads over the Woodhead Pass, and anyway, reinstating the railway line using the old tunnel would presumably be a lot cheaper than digging a new one. The trackbed has been maintained as a cycle path, and most importantly, the tunnel itself is in good condition as the National Grid use it for electricity cables. It's also a lot shorter than the Waverley route, so it's practically a no-brainer. There's also the Beverley-York line which is a bit more local and is ripe for reopening, alas it is a bit more complicated than Woodhead as the trackbed has been built on in many locations and has been neglected in others.
 
rjhowie said:
....and these days with rail back in private hands doing far better than BR did....
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What? With the most expensive and inefficient railway in the developed world receiving twice the public subsidy that British Rail did and siphoning off £2 billion a year for shareholders and middle men. How can you even say this - their punctuality levels are worse than the 70s and with cheapo imported trains that most people hate!

You know that Beeching was appointed by a Tory government, whose Transport minister, Ernest Marple, had family interests in motorway construction. Shamefully, Labour accepted the closure of the Waverley route, but the truth remains that the Tories have always run down our railway industry whenever they have been in office, including closing most of Britain's railway engineering industry in the 1980s.

It has taken Labour and SNP administrations at Holyrood to regenerate Scotland's railways - the Tories would never have done it!

Paul
 
May I remind that Labour planned the rail line from Glasgow Central to Glasgow Airport and it was the SNP government that refused it. I certainly do not reall a great fight by the SNP over the decades re the Borders Line either. I would say that when Margaret Thatcer was around she did not have any great interest in rail but can I point something very obvious out? There will always be an argument for and against private or State ownership although it was private who created it! And regarding the present day can I say that far more people use the train these days that when Nationalised and even during the years of Labour who nationalised it in the first place.

I can agree with you Paulsw2 on aspects of the demises in the Beeching era and being a lifelong rail fan I was partyly saddened. However at the same time there were scores of lines that wre absolutely bare of passengers and I lived beside a couple of them here in Glasgow when I worked qwith BR for a short time. One just could not justify many of them as people had went to buses or had cars and when you knew what stations were getting in even on a Monday morning it was pointless. The one thing that wasn't considered was that populations would move but there again back in the 60's almost understandable. You may well have an ideological thing about private and public but as I state with over 6 million travels a year here is still a damn lot more than in public ownership! There were places that only a handful of people used routes and yet what were we to do? Maybe tell folk not to use the bus or because they could now use a car to leave it?

In one part of GB there is still a State owned railway over in NI and they inherited a system that was decimated by almost three-quarters in 1948 and afterwards so being publicly owned is not some inherent wonderland. From under 900 miles to little over 200, sad, sad. That British railways are coping with more passengers and the challenge that brings than in long years of Labour rule in itself says much. And as for the Borders Line again note that the State railway kicked off any chance of a preservation association. So although decades ago I was initially disappointed at the width of Beeching's axe there were as well far too many lines that were dead and of no further use and an economic nightmare.
 
People who automatically go into blistering thumps at the today railway system in Gt Britain overlook one very obvious and thumping thing. And that is that massive more people are using rail than during the time it was in State hands. Opinion on State or private is a normal political argument of course but the thing has to be based on numbers sing it.It was in the old days of the State system and BR when BR would not even consider the Border Line getting taken into practice by a preservation alternative. Although a life long railway fan and I remember with a touch of sadness the Beeching cuts, much of rail was in a mess and sadly lines that were running with virtually no-one using them. Nowadays some experts have said that perhaps a third of the closures were perhaps negative while the rest were a financial drain on us. Governments don't have money they spend ours!

The re-opening of part of the old Borders route is a tremendous achievement for those who fought for years and especially that now elderly lady who led it. Others further down beyond the present end of the line at Tweedale have made some noises about continuing right across the abandoned bit to Carlisle but that is still very much in the air than definite. Maybe those in Hawick and other points on the full original routes should take up the claymores in the same way as the existing winners. At the same time I must admit that I have wee doubts as there may not be the same numbers wanting to go from Edinburgh to Carlisle as the existing part is one that was more potential aiming with all the new housing. Of all the re-openings here in my northern part of the Kingdom they have all attracted the passengers and as intimated the Borders route is the largest bright back at around 32 miles. After New Year I will train to Edinburgh for a run.

There is one other concerning thing in that the present terminal has been regarded as not fully appropriate and needs more work done.
 
The latest news came as a wee surprise on television the other day.

The Scottish Secretary (from the UK government) has publicly stated that should the Scottish Government strongly consider re-opening the rest of the Borders Railway beyond Tweedbank to it's original destination in Carlisle he would be extremely supportive. Now the Edinburgh government has confirmed that it will see to a feasibility study of that possibility. To date the present re-opening is the longest ever done in Gt Britain and it would be fantastic of the rest of that route came back and we up here in the northern part of the kingdom will yet again lead with the longest brought back!
 
rjhowie said:
The latest news came as a wee surprise on television the other day.

The Scottish Secretary (from the UK government) has publicly stated that should the Scottish Government strongly consider re-opening the rest of the Borders Railway beyond Tweedbank to it's original destination in Carlisle he would be extremely supportive. Now the Edinburgh government has confirmed that it will see to a feasibility study of that possibility. To date the present re-opening is the longest ever done in Gt Britain and it would be fantastic of the rest of that route came back and we up here in the northern part of the kingdom will yet again lead with the longest brought back!
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This is fantastic news!

Now if the Edinburgh government will talk to the US government about reopening some of the sadly closed lines over here it would be awesome. Hehe right.

John
 
Haha, nice try John!

The Borders thing is not yet definite but the fact that the UK government has came out with their feelings via the Secretary of State who is part of the UK government I hope will enourage the Scottish government. That Edinburgh has said they will look at the feasibility and backed from down South is a great encouraging bit of news. As for it's oroginal closure mack during the time of the government and it's sluggish British Rail , it may have been due to low use across what is a pleasant rolling countryside. When they were closing it people protested and blocked the line on the last day of running and the police went and got the local MP to come along and ask them to move.

The fact that this long line up to almost 33 miles was brought back and unlike much that happens these daus was both within the time said and the cost. If that can be done then the rest of the line can be too. Now I am going to make you a wee bit more jealous.

ScotRail has re-opened 4 lines shut during the 60's Dr Beeching cuts and all doing well! Roll on the Borders and you are I am afraid living in the wrong rail country!!

Bobby
 
rjhowie said:
Haha, nice try John!

The Borders thing is not yet definite but the fact that the UK government has came out with their feelings via the Secretary of State who is part of the UK government I hope will enourage the Scottish government. That Edinburgh has said they will look at the feasibility and backed from down South is a great encouraging bit of news. As for it's oroginal closure mack during the time of the government and it's sluggish British Rail , it may have been due to low use across what is a pleasant rolling countryside. When they were closing it people protested and blocked the line on the last day of running and the police went and got the local MP to come along and ask them to move.

The fact that this long line up to almost 33 miles was brought back and unlike much that happens these daus was both within the time said and the cost. If that can be done then the rest of the line can be too. Now I am going to make you a wee bit more jealous.

ScotRail has re-opened 4 lines shut during the 60's Dr Beeching cuts and all doing well! Roll on the Borders and you are I am afraid living in the wrong rail country!!

Bobby
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I am jealous! That is awesome news on the 4 closed lines.

I agree the fact that the government is interested, this means a lot more can be done. Over here we have the individual states and the private rail companies at odds over restoring services. Maine's old Maine Central Mountain Division was closed by Guilford Transportation (Pan Am Railways today). They cut the tracks and would not sell the middle portion of the line to any of the state governments. Recently, Maine was able to do work on their end and Vermont has been busy with portions. Other than that the Conway Scenic runs on a tiny portion in the middle through the White Mountains. There have been studies done, at great cost to everyone, and the need is there but no one has budged much on the project. New Hampshire is as anti-rail as they can be and will barely put a dime into infrastructure costs. If it were a highway, they would be all over it as usual.

John
 
Hello Paul,

That is the supreme question I would think. Some slighly up and down scenery places aling the route and i am sure that a couple of years ago I came across a mention that a fery short tunnel had a small collapse. Not extensive but surmountable. Most the trackbed is there and the main question is to whether there is initiative for say Edinburgh to Carlisle passenger travel as it passes very roughly diagonally across the Borders region to there. Not sure of a potential passenger numbers thing for that. as in practical terms a lot longer and at present Edinburgh to Galashiels and just beyond finishing at Tweedale has attractions.

However other towns further along past the present terminus are keen on the idea and would be an asset heading for the capital of Scotland. The elderly lady who spent decades leading the fight for the present 32 miles has advised the other towns to fight as they did to get it back. One encouraging feature is the success recorded to date which has broen the target and that the local Scottish Government is at least prepared to do research and tap brains is something and now being encouraged publicly by the UK Government through the Secretary of State being enthusiastic on the media is helpful. So for now getting this stage is a breakthrough. Another preparatory basis is that the Stirling-Alloa when it re-opened after it broke figures.

There used to be a whole network of lines in the Borders until the Beeching cuts during the time the government ran the railways. So at present I remain optimistic.

From the centre of the Universe.

Bobby

(oh, ps. That is Glasgow is there is anyone who doesn't dashed well know that)
 
Latest news on the Borders Railway.

Sturgeon the Scottish First Minister was in Hawick further down the Borders and has stated that she is all for a proper assessment on adding another part of the Borders railway past Tweedbank down to where she was. I do hope she is being honest as her usual routine on anything where there is say a query or a problem her normal stuff is to say "we are working on it." And that is after 9 years in power. I will be even happier if a body IS actually formed to add more of the former line and will stop turning the sound down when she is on!

John you are unfortunately not in the right country when it comes to re-opening railways! Four lines re-opened here in the north part of the kingdom and the longest at over 30 miles (just to make you more envious).

Bobby
 
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