steam replaceing diesel

[dpfan1]

I like steam power myself, but even I think returning to steam won't happen. Sorry but the problem is cost. Sure steam is swell and all but when maintenance comes into play a more modern diesel electric from General Electric or Electro Motive Diesel would just be better for handling more modern passenger and freight trains. Some railroads like Burlington Northern Santa Fe are trying new fuel sources to power diesels. Now, don't get me wrong. Steam is great power, but the conversion from steam to diesel was what the railroads saw as an answer to bring costs down, 'cause when the Interstate Highway System was created the railroads started losing dough (money). They couldn't keep up with the changing affect on the railroads. If diesels didn't came around, steam locomotives would have bankrupted the railroads. Sure, I'd love to see Pere Marquette 1225 take a freight train for CSX Transportation, but the world is at a faster pace than it was 50 or 60 years ago. So, it's best that they keep taking excursions and besides that...steam locomotives require more serving facilities like water and coaling towers. Diesels only need refueling hubs so they can pick up fuel and go. Many diesels can pull one or two trains without refueling, so diesels are better to that degree. But, we can't change history. Mankind wants to move forward, not backwards so dieselization was in a sense a good thing.

if ns could revive the 1218 and 611 back to steam.

 

[mikeman]

I can safely say that NS will NEVER bring 1218 and 611 back online. Thats a NEVER with a Capital N...E...V...E...R.

 

[dpfan1]

I can safely say that NS will NEVER bring 1218 and 611 back online. Thats a NEVER with a Capital N...E...V...E...R.

hey mikeman strasburg 475 is the only N&W steamer running besides if NS revive their steam program the 1218 and 611 would be restored at strasburg. heck strasburg tracks can hold the 1218.

 

[whistlehead]

Can I just add a point in here?

Steam locos will not return to power.

Unless...

Let's take a think about something. Methane as a greenhouse gas is 15 times worse than Carbon Dioxde. But what happens if you burn it? It turns into just that. Steam loco... burning... I think you can tell where this is going.
Take a dairy farm. Collect the cowpats and feed them into one of those machine things (Sorry, don't know what they're called) that removes the methane and turns it into fertilizer. This already happens on quite a lot of dairy farms. Normally the gases are just released into the air. Instead, feed the said gases into a compressor, and compress them into liquid. There you go, fuel.

On the other hand, it could also be used perfectly easily in a diesel, so my argument is, therefore, rendered pointless. Oh well. :hehe:

Chris :wave:

 

[dpfan1]

Can I just add a point in here?

Steam locos will not return to power.

Unless...

Let's take a think about something. Methane as a greenhouse gas is 15 times worse than Carbon Dioxde. But what happens if you burn it? It turns into just that. Steam loco... burning... I think you can tell where this is going.
Take a dairy farm. Collect the cowpats and feed them into one of those machine things (Sorry, don't know what they're called) that removes the methane and turns it into fertilizer. This already happens on quite a lot of dairy farms. Normally the gases are just released into the air. Instead, feed the said gases into a compressor, and compress them into liquid. There you go, fuel.

On the other hand, it could also be used perfectly easily in a diesel, so my argument is, therefore, rendered pointless. Oh well. :hehe:

Chris :wave:

strasburg steamer burn antricite all steam locmotive should burn antricite clean burning coal.

 

[simulatortrain]

strasburg steamer burn antricite all steam locmotive should burn antricite clean burning coal.

No. Just no. How could they ever burn anthracite in those fireboxes? The 0-4-0C is the only one that can and it doesn't run.

Once again, they're called locomotives.

 

[Klinger]

Ok, I'm not going to waste my time reading this thread before replying, its 10 minutes of my life better spent modeling.

Why steam replaced diesel.

Its actually more complex then most think. I read a great artical explaining more in depth why steam was phased out. All locomotives, diesel or steam, have thousands and thousands of different parts to make them run. These parts are not always supplied by the manufacturer, most are bought by the manufacturer and used on some/all of their products, depending on the tolerances of the part. One of the reason steam locomotives started losing their popularity, in the 1950's many companies stopped making parts for steam locomotives. This was because the Interstate was coming online, and diesel locomotives share some common parts with diesel power trucks. (grated, there is a size difference, but the parts still work off the same principle)

Now, railroads had several choices here. They could abandon steam and move to diesel, they could make the parts themselves (VERY expensive), they could find a way to rebuild the parts (which can lead to disaster if not done properly), or they could find new sources of parts.

With older locomotives, parts were actually easier to find then newer locomotives. Many locomotives in the 1950's dated back to the 1910's and 1920's, because the depression and WWII prevented the acquisition of new equipment, so railroads made due with what they had. However, the small amount of new equipment that was floating around, it was nearly impossible to find parts for since the parts were no longer made. There also were not many wrecked or worn out locomotives sitting around to cannibalize for parts. So railroads were forced to retire these locomotives early because they could not be repaired cheaply (because they needed to make the parts themselves)

So that left them with 2 choices, use the outdated locomotives, or buy diesels. The diesels could pull far more then the locomotives that dated back to the teens and twenty's, so new diesels were ordered. This gradually put steam locomotives out of work as the mainlines kept being dieselized, and steam got put back into yard work.

Slowly, new diesel switchers were bought, because everything that could be cannibalized had already been cannibalized, so no parts could be rebuilt and placed back into service.

Besides the fact of supply and demand, steam is more costly to maintain, it takes a highly skilled crew, and depending on the enviorment, requires more fuel. However this is not always the case, as a good crew could run a steam locomotive more efficiently then a diesel easily. The argument that steam is more harmful to the environment is also false, as a good fireman can keep exhaust clear if that was his goal. The black smoke is actually the sign of a poorly maintained fire, and that excess coal is being added and not completely burned.

And double heading is what really played a key role killing steam locomotives. Multipal Unit controls were invented early in the 20th century for electric trains, most heavily used on Traction railroads. However, steam could not use this technology, there for every steam locomotive added to a consist required a seperate crew, which equaled more wages, less profit. Diesels can all be hooked together and run by a single crew. In fact now a days, one crew can operate units separated in a consist. The engineer at the front can control the engines in the back not directly coupled to the locomotives in the front except via MU hoses.

Steam does not have a place today because of the lack of supply of parts, the expensive of maintenance, and the loss of the skills required to operate, maintain, and manufacture steam locomotives. All the faculties are also gone, which means they would have to be rebuilt from scratch. Yes there are a few places like Strasburg that have the skills, but they simply do not have the manpower to maintain a working fleet of hundreds of working locomotives every day around the clock.

Steam is gone for good, its been replaced, but it will always survive in museums and excursions

 

[dpfan1]

Ok, I'm not going to waste my time reading this thread before replying, its 10 minutes of my life better spent modeling.

Why steam replaced diesel.

Its actually more complex then most think. I read a great artical explaining more in depth why steam was phased out. All locomotives, diesel or steam, have thousands and thousands of different parts to make them run. These parts are not always supplied by the manufacturer, most are bought by the manufacturer and used on some/all of their products, depending on the tolerances of the part. One of the reason steam locomotives started losing their popularity, in the 1950's many companies stopped making parts for steam locomotives. This was because the Interstate was coming online, and diesel locomotives share some common parts with diesel power trucks. (grated, there is a size difference, but the parts still work off the same principle)

Now, railroads had several choices here. They could abandon steam and move to diesel, they could make the parts themselves (VERY expensive), they could find a way to rebuild the parts (which can lead to disaster if not done properly), or they could find new sources of parts.

With older locomotives, parts were actually easier to find then newer locomotives. Many locomotives in the 1950's dated back to the 1910's and 1920's, because the depression and WWII prevented the acquisition of new equipment, so railroads made due with what they had. However, the small amount of new equipment that was floating around, it was nearly impossible to find parts for since the parts were no longer made. There also were not many wrecked or worn out locomotives sitting around to cannibalize for parts. So railroads were forced to retire these locomotives early because they could not be repaired cheaply (because they needed to make the parts themselves)

So that left them with 2 choices, use the outdated locomotives, or buy diesels. The diesels could pull far more then the locomotives that dated back to the teens and twenty's, so new diesels were ordered. This gradually put steam locomotives out of work as the mainlines kept being dieselized, and steam got put back into yard work.

Slowly, new diesel switchers were bought, because everything that could be cannibalized had already been cannibalized, so no parts could be rebuilt and placed back into service.

Besides the fact of supply and demand, steam is more costly to maintain, it takes a highly skilled crew, and depending on the enviorment, requires more fuel. However this is not always the case, as a good crew could run a steam locomotive more efficiently then a diesel easily. The argument that steam is more harmful to the environment is also false, as a good fireman can keep exhaust clear if that was his goal. The black smoke is actually the sign of a poorly maintained fire, and that excess coal is being added and not completely burned.

And double heading is what really played a key role killing steam locomotives. Multipal Unit controls were invented early in the 20th century for electric trains, most heavily used on Traction railroads. However, steam could not use this technology, there for every steam locomotive added to a consist required a seperate crew, which equaled more wages, less profit. Diesels can all be hooked together and run by a single crew. In fact now a days, one crew can operate units separated in a consist. The engineer at the front can control the engines in the back not directly coupled to the locomotives in the front except via MU hoses.

Steam does not have a place today because of the lack of supply of parts, the expensive of maintenance, and the loss of the skills required to operate, maintain, and manufacture steam locomotives. All the faculties are also gone, which means they would have to be rebuilt from scratch. Yes there are a few places like Strasburg that have the skills, but they simply do not have the manpower to maintain a working fleet of hundreds of working locomotives every day around the clock.

Steam is gone for good, its been replaced, but it will always survive in museums and excursions

the last steam operatins after steam end in the us was CPR they run steam until 1960.

 

[simulatortrain]

the last steam operatins after steam end in the us was CPR they run steam until 1960.

WRONG!

China ran steam until at least 2003, finally ending it to appear more "modern" for the Olympics. They were building it into the 90s.

 

[D9007_Pinza]

Correct simulatortrain. In fact, several foreign nations continued steam operations after steam operations in North America ceased.
Some others I can think of offhand:
Australia: 1974
United Kingdom: 1968
USSR/Russia: 1980s
South Africa: 1994 approx
Finland: 1975
Poland: 1990s
France: 1975
India: 2000
Indonesia: 1994
Pakistan: Still operating steam to date (apparently)

Evan.

 

[Sampug394]

Lets everyone settle down please or the thread will be closed.

Cheers

AJ

You'd might as well close this and several other threads. They're breeding grounds for making several members of the Forum very unhappy.

 

[Sampug394]

Correct simulatortrain. In fact, several foreign nations continued steam operations after steam operations in North America ceased.
Some others I can think of offhand:
Australia: 1974
United Kingdom: 1968
USSR/Russia: 1980s
South Africa: 1994 approx
Finland: 1975
Poland: 1990s
France: 1975
India: 2000
Indonesia: 1994
Pakistan: Still operating steam to date (apparently)

Evan.

You apparently haven't ever heard of Woltzlyn Poland. They're running revenue steam and freight trains there that are being Supported by the Polish government. Right now. And they're bringing more and more locomotives back to life while they're at it.

Steam isn't gone for good.

 

[farecoal]

You apparently haven't ever heard of Woltzlyn Poland. They're running revenue steam and freight trains there that are being Supported by the Polish government. Right now. And they're bringing more and more locomotives back to life while they're at it.

Steam isn't gone for good.

Wolsztyn is the name of the town, and a British organization apparently partly funds the locomotives.


Coincidentally, who's up for a trip to Wolstyn? I've heard they got, uh, great views and stuff...
Yeah.

 

[amigacooke]

Deleted by poster.

 

[dpfan1]

the high rolling days of steam fades. (Johnny Cash)


i put that quote down because it remind me why the railroads switch from steam to diesel.

 

[Sampug394]

My Dearest Apologies, Moderators...

 

[illinoiscentral]

Sampug,
You just caused me to laugh so loudly my mother thought I was having an asthma attack, and I don't have asthma. Please stop making excellent points before I DO!
If this was Facebook, I would "Like" your post.


CHEERS,
Woody

P.S: Johnny Cash was too good of a singer to use in this thread, please remove his picture.

 

[K4driver]

deleted.........

 

[K4driver]

like The previous 2 posts. we need a like button on this Forum

apparently we need a dictionary for DP's posts let's start it
The Dictionary and the world according to DP
DP:NOOB
Locmotive:Locomotive
Strasburgnly railroad that matters

 

[aardvark1]

Shhhhhh.....

Do NOT tell dp... that JC died on September 12, 2003. It may ruin his day.... hopefully.

In memory of J Cash....

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]I hurt myself today[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]to see if I still feel[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]I focus on the pain[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]the only thing that's real[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]the needle tears a hole[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]the old familiar sting[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]try to kill it all away[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]but I remember everything[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]what have I become?[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]my sweetest friend[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]everyone I know[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]goes away in the end[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]and you could have it all[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]my empire of dirt[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]I will let you down[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]I will make you hurt[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]I wear this crown of thorns[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]upon my liar's chair[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]full of broken thoughts[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]I cannot repair[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]beneath the stains of time[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]the feelings disappear[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]you are someone else[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]I am still right here[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]what have I become?[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]my sweetest friend[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]everyone I know[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]goes away in the end[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]and you could have it all[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]my empire of dirt[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]I will let you down[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]I will make you hurt[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]if I could start again[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]a million miles away[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]I would keep myself[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]I would find a way[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Please let J Cash ....RIP[/FONT]