Speed tree groups.

Railwayz

Slightly above average.
I was wondering why there does not seem to be any groups of speed trees like there was with the billboard style. I don't know much about content creation so please excuse my ignorance of this matter but I was curious. I also notice that there are no splines of speed trees. Is either of these at all possible or are there reasons to do with the way speed trees are animated?

Railwayz
 
Groups can be a mixed blessing whether they are made as billboards or 3D, unless they are made as a spline which hugs the ground (unlikely for SpeedTrees).

There was a similar discussion a while back involving cow herds.

Regardless of any performance issues one of the main disadvantages of billboard groups made as objects is that they are generally made to sit on perfectly flat ground. As soon as they are laid on irregular or sloping terrain the individual components can look odd when part of the group will either be buried or floating in the air.
 
Groups can be a mixed blessing whether they are made as billboards or 3D, unless they are made as a spline which hugs the ground (unlikely for SpeedTrees).

There was a similar discussion a while back involving cow herds.

Regardless of any performance issues one of the main disadvantages of billboard groups made as objects is that they are generally made to sit on perfectly flat ground. As soon as they are laid on irregular or sloping terrain the individual components can look odd when part of the group will either be buried or floating in the air.

Thank you both for your replies. The remark regarding sloping terrain is also a problem when building houses on hill sides. You can maybe get away with one house but I have yet to find a satisfying way of building streets of houses on a hill.

Railwayz
 
Speed tree groups actually follow the terrain. All you need do is make them visible in their config files. I believe there is something like 10 or 12 tree groups available as built-ins.
 
Don't need the speedtree groups as all you need to do is build an area with the trees you want. Then copy and paste until your little hearts contented. Can do large areas very quickly. Also group is easy to change as add a few more trees of different kind and then copy and paste again. I have areas where I have 10's of thousand trees and didn't take very long to forest area.
 
Don't need the speedtree groups as all you need to do is build an area with the trees you want. Then copy and paste until your little hearts contented. Can do large areas very quickly. Also group is easy to change as add a few more trees of different kind and then copy and paste again. I have areas where I have 10's of thousand trees and didn't take very long to forest area.

The manual method also allows for variations too in the positioning. Paste a patch of trees, move them around a bit. Copy and then paste the modified patch elsewhere, and repeat a few times. This will help eliminate the marching soldier look that trees sometimes have in simulations.

John
 
Again, thank you for your replies. This has lead me to ponder the art of making heavily forrested areas. My layout has a number of sites where I need to simulate thick bush land but if I place to many trees it causes my computer to slow waaaaaay down. If I rely on using fewer trees and covering the ground with textures it looks, well, not right.

I've seen a number of US layouts with thivk, lush vegetation close to the right of way. Either these are set up areas for photo ops or the builders are more talented than I (most likely)

Any thoughts?

Railwayz
 
Again, thank you for your replies. This has lead me to ponder the art of making heavily forrested areas. My layout has a number of sites where I need to simulate thick bush land but if I place to many trees it causes my computer to slow waaaaaay down. If I rely on using fewer trees and covering the ground with textures it looks, well, not right.

I've seen a number of US layouts with thivk, lush vegetation close to the right of way. Either these are set up areas for photo ops or the builders are more talented than I (most likely)

Any thoughts?

Railwayz

You can create groups of trees and copy, rotate and paste.

I have found that groups of 5 to 10 trees placed closely together makes the forest appear thicker than it really is. On my own route, I have lots of thick forests since I come from New England and we are covered with trees everywhere. Using that 5-tree clump, I placed them in rows and close groups along the ROW. When there were open fields, I placed clumps along the edges of lighter-colored grass textures while I colored the ground under the tree clusters darker to make the appearance of shadows and ground clutter.

These smaller clusters too also help with the performance because there isn't that constant push of polygons into the video card as you're driving along.

John
 
Probably using pofigs trees, they are much kinder on performance. You need probably 1/3 the number of speed trees to achieve the same density as using billboard trees.
 
SpeedTree Groups have some advantages over Copy/Paste forest creation. As GAWPO50 has explained, as long as the config is set up properly they will follow the terrain.

As for performance comment of Pofig SpeedTrees, any UltraTreez with "Performance" in the asset title are equal to the poly range of Pofig SpeedTrees, Seasonal, and designed much better than the original IDV Content. These are on the DLS for ease in many regards, licensed content, and multiplayer enabled. I just absolutely hate creating these assets anymore and when I see comments like that it just says no need. These assets are a pain to make.
 
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SpeedTree Groups have some advantages over Copy/Paste forest creation. As GAWPO50 has explained, as long as the config is set up properly they will follow the terrain.

As for performance comment of Pofig SpeedTrees, any UltraTreez with "Performance" in the asset title are equal to the poly range of Pofig SpeedTrees, Seasonal, and designed much better than the original IDV Content. These are on the DLS for ease in many regards, licensed content, and multiplayer enabled. I just absolutely hate creating these assets anymore and when I see comments like that it just says no need. These assets are a pain to make.

Howdy there McGuirel! :D

It's too bad you don't make anymore treez. They are awesome and I prefer them over many other SpeedTree relations. :)

I don't blame you though when you see comments like that which can be very, very discouraging.

All the best,

John
 
Howdy there McGuirel! :D

It's too bad you don't make anymore treez. They are awesome and I prefer them over many other SpeedTree relations. :)

I don't blame you though when you see comments like that which can be very, very discouraging.

All the best,

John

McGuirel does make some awesome Treez, and grass and shrubs.
 
Oh for goodness sake, I never criticised UltraTreez, can we stop this rivalry thing it achieves nothing other than put people off using the blasted things due to the bitterness it seems to generate.
 
I use mostly the Ultra trees and track. However, I toss in other "brands" to get color variations.
 
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I don't want to start a tree rivalry either, so I'll leave it at that. :D

Here's my overall criticism of Speed Trees. For the most part, no matter who makes them, they're always too big and clumsy, too clean, and too perfect. It's for this reason, I think, that we tend to use more than we really need while trying to achieve the textures and thickness that real trees offer, and this was where the old flipboards worked because they were thin enough and light enough to fill an area, yet not completely overpower the scene at the same time. The Speed Tree objects are great for lawns and parks, but not really suited well for a forest. No matter how much we try, we can never quite get that real forest look.

I never look at trees in a scene as being just trees. The tree objects, like other objects on the route, make up the composition of the scene and should add rather than detract from it. An old Victorian house for example set up with some old oaks and birches placed in clumps can really add to the realism of the scene we're trying to achieve. With Speed Trees this becomes quite an effort because of their size, shape, and coloring. Not all trees are 60 to 80 meters tall, and have a circumference of 80 meters around them with the branches. Not all the trees are the same color either. The creators have done a great job, with the tools they have, but overall they all have either a very dark green or a drab olive green which really isn't right. If we look at real trees, we can see that they not only vary in shape, color, and size. The juvenile versions of a species don't always look like their grown up ones either. In most cases they're not just thinner, but their branches are shaped differently as well.

Many of these issues, I think, is the fault of the ST developer engine used to make the objects. Perhaps in the future the developer can update their toolsets to achieve the level of realism we wish to have. It's too bad we couldn't adopt some of the other tree and plant creating engines and programs which I think make much better looking trees than Speed Trees never can match at this point in time.

Plant libraries and procedural trees.
http://xfrog.com/

http://onyxtree.com/

http://www.digi-element.com/vpm/index.htm

I have used the plant mechanic that is built into World Builder. It's quite interesting to generate "species" of trees and plants using their cross-breeding engine. For this program you "grow" your trees and place them in the scene.

None of these programs is cheap, but then again neither was Speed Trees. I only hope that N3V had looked various products before settling in on Speed Trees for their use in game. Granted the animated trees are an added "feature" with Speed Trees, but I'd rather have decent looking trees than ones that blow in the wind.

John
 
I have used the plant mechanic that is built into World Builder. It's quite interesting to generate "species" of trees and plants using their cross-breeding engine. For this program you "grow" your trees and place them in the scene.

None of these programs is cheap, but then again neither was Speed Trees. I only hope that N3V had looked various products before settling in on Speed Trees for their use in game. Granted the animated trees are an added "feature" with Speed Trees, but I'd rather have decent looking trees than ones that blow in the wind.

John

There are a few freeware or old free versions of tree generating programs I've played with a couple, main problem is getting the polygons down to an acceptable level and find some way of importing into a program with a Trainz Exporter although I did manage to make some bushes, exported to DXF and imported into Gmax and redid all the texturing. I'd love to get my hands on Xfrog though. I've also tried the same technique a N3V used with the Treez pack again for bushes, basically a lot of flat planes arranged to give a 3d'ish effect.

Old version of Tree Generator was free or was a year ago but too many polygons, TreeD is better on polygons but pretty useless for trees unless you want them all looking pretty much the same but ok for bushes if you attack the mesh in 3ds or Gmax.
 
SpeedTree Groups have some advantages over Copy/Paste forest creation. As GAWPO50 has explained, as long as the config is set up properly they will follow the terrain.

As for performance comment of Pofig SpeedTrees, any UltraTreez with "Performance" in the asset title are equal to the poly range of Pofig SpeedTrees, Seasonal, and designed much better than the original IDV Content. These are on the DLS for ease in many regards, licensed content, and multiplayer enabled. I just absolutely hate creating these assets anymore and when I see comments like that it just says no need. These assets are a pain to make.

I'd have agree with JCitron and say that it really is a pity that you don't make any more trees etc mcguirel. I use your creations mostly. I might try the idea of using small clumps of trees with some bushes interspersed to provide ground cover and see how that goes.

Shane mentioned that the speedtree groups are hidden. How would I "uncover" these groups to have a look at them?

Railwayz
 
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