Signal Placement on long routes between Towns! Need help with this!

[ish6]

Hello All --

My desert route is vast, where two towns can be very fat away from each other, so my question is; Just like in the real world, if you place a signal in each town, how many more signals would you place between the towns ... ?

My Desert here -- so you guyz can get an idea, etc LOL
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/entr...nteractive-Railroads-quot&bt=4823#comment4823

You can use any example you like guys, such as, let's say, the towns are 10 miles apart, or 20, 40, 60 .... etc ... how many signals in between!?

Thanks for any feedback!
Really need your help to determine this!

Ish

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi Ish

I don't know a great deal about US signalling but I would think that the factors to take in to account will be the same everywhere. For example a section between signals needs to be long enough to hold the longest train with an overlap distance added. Other factors are - is the section on a rising or falling gradient as a train will stop quicker on an uphill gradient and what is the ruling line speed as a faster train will obviously require a longer distance to stop. These are the things that I can immediately think of but if you don't want to go to all that trouble then I think that train length would be your main consideration.

Regards

Brian

 

[ish6]

Hi Ish

I don't know a great deal about US signalling but I would think that the factors to take in to account will be the same everywhere. For example a section between signals needs to be long enough to hold the longest train with an overlap distance added. Other factors are - is the section on a rising or falling gradient as a train will stop quicker on an uphill gradient and what is the ruling line speed as a faster train will obviously require a longer distance to stop. These are the things that I can immediately think of but if you don't want to go to all that trouble then I think that train length would be your main consideration.

Regards

Brian

Hi Brian,

Actually, your comments are very very valuable, and I'm not taken any short cuts here! To be honest, sir, I have never taken into consideration half thing that you have posted, example, uphill gradients, etc etc ... My desert route is very very vast, and signaling and speed signals are tow items I have not really place except inside the cities, counties, and towns, etc ...

Thank you very much!

Ish

* Keep them comments coming guys!

 

[davesnow]

In my experience, placing signals between passing tracks, no matter how long, can cause a cornfield meet (two trains going in opposite directions on the same track, meeting head on).

 

[norfolksouthern37]

There are always exceptions but on your average single track main with sidings the sidings are about 10 miles apart with a signal every 2 miles. Your results may vary of course.

 

[Vern]

I'm not sure that the basic signalling logic in Trainz recognises the concept of breaking up long single line sections with intermediate "auto" signals as is the practice in some parts of the world though notably not in the UK. You could probably get away with one intermediate signal in the section providing these were placed so as not to release the block to an opposing train from the other end. Very crude diagram but something like this:

A>--------------<B--------C>------------<D

and NOT this:

A>------------B>--------<C-------------<D

In the first diagram, for a train to enter the block at A, the line must be clear to C. If the section is already occupied by a train proceeding from D to A this (in theory) locks the line through C which prevents the signal at a clearing and a cornfield meet. Might be worth trialling this.

Something else to consider is that the Trainz signalling does not see an infinite distance to the next signal, in the early days it was only around 6 miles it might be more now. The simplest solution is probably just to insert some additional passing loops (sidings) to break up the long section, even if not prototypical.

 

[martinvk]

Unless you want two trains to follow each other on a single line between passing sidings, no much point in having extra signals on the single track. In that case, I would add some triggers at the entrance and exit points along with some logic to prevent a facing train from entering while there is still a train on the single track. Again, unless you are after 100% prototypical signal placement, just do what works in Trainz.

 

[Roy3b3]

Where you place signals will also depend on what you want to achieve from your long route.

If you are NOT intending to have several AI drivers doing various tasks while you are driving the main consist, then the importance is purely a visual thing and you could position them (every couple of miles) or where you like.

But if you DO intend to have other consists running in opposite directions, then you should provide a passing track and equivalent to handle your longest train, on your layout every 5 to 10 miles. Within the passing track there needs to be signalling in place to control those trains.

If your towns are 10 miles apart, then you could possibly have 1 or 2 sets of passing tracks in place. If the distances are greater, say 20 miles add another set; and so on.

Cheers,
Roy3b3

 

[JohnnyC1]

There are always exceptions but on your average single track main with sidings the sidings are about 10 miles apart with a signal every 2 miles. Your results may vary of course.

This is the rule that I use on all routes; I place track marks every mile, signals are placed every mile when there is a station, siding, cross over and where there is heavy traffic. Out in the corn fields every two miles works, I use permissive, 05 type, and distant signals, 06 type, when a passing siding is involved. With super signals by RRSignal #481384[FONT=&quot],[/FONT] and justinroth #709825, you can set the signal states, and use those signals in place of speed markers.

John

 

[norfolksouthern37]

Something else to consider is that the Trainz signalling does not see an infinite distance to the next signal, in the early days it was only around 6 miles it might be more now.

Its always been 32km max tracksearch but depending on what signals are being used the signal could 'opt out' earlier.

 

[maruffijd]

Anytime I have long singles between 2 doubles, I found using the ASB Crossover set stops the meets for me. Under this set up, I can have as many permissive mid line lites as I feel is right as the entry signals are held at red till the controlling train clears out. Only flaw I have found is if a following train gets inside the cleared direction, It gets to go before opposite traffic is released.

 

[ish6]

Hello Everyone,
And thanks for pouring in your feedbacks!

--Just to many to quote, however, your posts have been thought provoking, with ideas and guidelines that I've never considered until now! And keep pouring in your feedback guyz, if you think of anything else!

Just a footnote: using USA Signal 04 and 03 across the entire route -- since Norfolksouthern37 speculated on what signals could be use from his post #10!

I will tell you, though, all this info collected here will be implemented into my Desert route; And since I have no timetable for this route which started with TR06 -- I am sure THAT I'll get tp implement all of the suggestions posted above into the route!

TANE has made it possible to work with huge routes, without any issues!

Thank you all, again!!!

Ish

 

[stouthm]

I try to keep my signaling simple, like me. I use SafeTran numbers 04, 05 and 06. At my crossovers I use SafeTran dwarfs. On Neil's UMR route I did away with all his signals and placed my signals where I thought they should go. Very little or no problems so far. Maybe I got lucky. Remember, KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. Good luck.

 

[JCitron]

I try to keep my signaling simple, like me. I use SafeTran numbers 04, 05 and 06. At my crossovers I use SafeTran dwarfs. On Neil's UMR route I did away with all his signals and placed my signals where I thought they should go. Very little or no problems so far. Maybe I got lucky. Remember, KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. Good luck.

My setup is the same and it works very well. I've used the G Style Tri-colors and the Searchlights which are more common up my way, though the SafTran signals are now making their appearance on the B&M West End sadly as they replace the old Searchlight signals put in during the 1950s.

 

[Dap]

I have a route that has 10 miles of single track between passing sidings. To control the potential for cornfield meets, use absolute signals at the ends of the passing sidings. On the singe track between sidings, use conditional signals every mile or so. The conditional signals allow multiple trains going the same direction between passing sidings. And keep in mind the 32km (~20miles) range of the Trains signal systems. I would place the passing sidings no more than 18 miles (28.8km) apart.

With the proper use of absolute and conditional signals, I've yet to have a cornfield meet.

David

 

[ish6]

I have a route that has 10 miles of single track between passing sidings. To control the potential for cornfield meets, use absolute signals at the ends of the passing sidings. On the singe track between sidings, use conditional signals every mile or so. The conditional signals allow multiple trains going the same direction between passing sidings. And keep in mind the 32km (~20miles) range of the Trains signal systems. I would place the passing sidings no more than 18 miles (28.8km) apart.

With the proper use of absolute and conditional signals, I've yet to have a cornfield meet.

David

Thanks David for your feedback, sir
Ish

 

[ray_whiley]

There is another consideration which would certainly apply in the UK, I think. If semaphore signals are used, for example on a route set in the past, surely the placement would depend on the distance over which signal rodding could be pulled by the signalman? This would also argue for frequently placed signal boxes so that no length of track is left unguarded in the event of an accident. It would also have to be possible for the train guard to be able to walk to the nearest signal box in case of an accident or breakdown, which I believe was required before the introduction of colour light signals.

Ray

 

[cascaderailroad]

As I run 5280' (1609m) trains, I make a "New Consist" that length, then I place a boxcar and that "New Consist", and place signals at a distance a good deal greater than that "New Consist" length (the boxcar allows for fine positioning)

I use the same method, when placing Invisible Speedboards by biddle

 

[Vern]

There is another consideration which would certainly apply in the UK, I think. If semaphore signals are used, for example on a route set in the past, surely the placement would depend on the distance over which signal rodding could be pulled by the signalman? This would also argue for frequently placed signal boxes so that no length of track is left unguarded in the event of an accident. It would also have to be possible for the train guard to be able to walk to the nearest signal box in case of an accident or breakdown, which I believe was required before the introduction of colour light signals.

Ray

And on single lines controlled by train staff or token, the whole section is regarded as absolute block so no intermediate signals would be permitted. If there was a siding (in the British sense) within the section the associated ground frame would be unlocked by the token then depending on the nature of the operation, the token could be replaced in an auxiliary instrument once the train was locked in clear. This would allow a fresh token to be released at either end of the section for a through train to traverse the block.

On sections of single line with staff and ticket working, the first train going through on the ticket (the driver had to be shown the staff) had to be confirmed in clear at the next block post before a following train could proceed on the staff. And if the staff was still at the A end with a train at B waiting to proceed in the opposite direction could not do so until the staff arrived on a following train.

Obviously this is getting a bit OT from the OP but I've always found the operation of single track railways quite fascinating. Although I haven't dabbled with the new Interlocking Towers in TANE yet, I'm wondering whether these might provide a solution to the OP's dilemma.

 

[stouthm]

David, for those people who are not familiar with your terminology would you explain what signals are absolute and which ones are conditional? I would do it but I'm really not sure myself. Thanks.