Signal anomaly

laldfordo

New member
Picture a junction with signal A on one of the trailing branches and signal B on the facing side. (Both signals correctly placed in relation to spline points and point lever.) After a train goes through the junction from the trailing side, A goes red and B goes yellow. When the train passes the next signal, C, B goes back to red and A will go yellow if there is another train coming.

That is how it should be and that is how it usually is. Sometimes it behaves strangely. Signal B stays yellow, and hence A stays red, while the train goes way down the track, passing not only C but also signals D, E, F.... Following trains form a queue behind signal A.

Eventually B goes red when the train passes another trailing junction and the facing-side signal at that junction turns yellow. Odd that that linkage exists in the logic. The junctions are a long way apart, certainly greater than the distance at which the AI can "see" signals.

The solution is simple. Take away signal B. But then the route is not correctly signalled in both directions.

Can anyone shed a light on this? The only clue I have is that the anomalous junction is the last of several close together, some leading, some trailing, on or off the main line.
 
Laidfordo, its difficult to visualise what you mean without a screenie (hint,hint) but regarding what you said about the AI "seeing" signals on a Branch its my impression (I"ve not testedit) that for the purpose of a Junction Signal at a Branch it doesn"t matter how far the branch signal is from the junction..the AI will still see it...:confused:
 
I realise the text description is nowhere near as good as screenie. But

(a) being new to all this I've got to teach myself how to do a screenie

(b) I am on holiday at the moment and the computer with TRS2004 on it is at home. It is 55 degrees here and raining so its nice to have a laptop and the forum to keep me occupied!

It's not the distance of the signal from the junction that I meant it is the distance (more than a mile) between the junctions.

Signal B should return to red when the train leaves the next signal down the track (C) but the train goes on for block after block (three signals at the end of each block) and signal B stays off. It is only when the train reaches the next trailing set of points and changes the signal on the facing side of that set to yellow that B goes red.

I had to look carefully to see what was happening precisely as, at first, all I saw was a big hold up of trains behind signal A.

While you ponder that again I'll try to draw the setup in some other application. How do I add a file, such as a jpg or even a text file, into a post? I can't find a button that says "attach", like you get with an email.
 
Taking a screenie is simple.In Driver or Surveyor choose the shot you want (it helps if you press F5 to get rid of the HUD info).Press the"Print Screen" button on your keyboard.Exit Trainz.Open "Accessories" then "Paint" or whatever photo editing programme you use e.g Adobe.Click "Edit" then "Paste As New Image".If you"re happy with the shot click "File" and then "Save As".From the drop down list of picture types select "Jpeg" and give the shot a name , then click "OK".It"ll be saved in "My Pictures" or your "Screenshots" folder if you have one.Then follow the instructions on how to use Imageshack at the top of the Screenshots page.The most important thing to remember is - when you click to insert the screenie into your reply, if you get a box of squares with a red cross in it DO NOT click "Submit reply" - it means you have done something wrong and you need to delete the box and try again...:rolleyes:
 
Many thanks Lewisner. Have to wait till I get home for the screenie. But I've had a go at representing the route and the problem in something I can just copy to the post.

In the following diagram, the trains go top to bottom and the signals are on the left of the direction of travel. I hope my representation of the junctions is clear enough. On the two that matter I've left out the branch lines for clarity.


Signal B will not go back to red until the train has passed signal I and turned it to yellow.

I've drawn something that does not transpose to the forum. Probably makes the text of my original post harder to understand rather than easier. I'll do better later.
 
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Do you mean this?



The signal before the turnout which is AGAINST is is B, the one coming from the line out is A and the one at the top is C. Is this diagram correct? If so, it could help people understand. I could also create a Trainz version later. On the sceenshot note, you'll need a program to see them. Try Infranview, I use it mostly for mine.

Hope this helps

CoolMatty
 
Thanks CoolMatty, the diagram helps.

With the train going up your diagram on the left hand track, the first signal to the left is A. The next signal on the left, after the junction, should be on the other side of the track and is B. The third signal you show, on the other trailing branch, should also be on the other side of its track but was not named by me as it doesn't feature in the problem (but it does exist in my layout).

Imagine the track continuing up out of your picture and the train will come to C, then D, E, etc.

B, having gone yellow when the train passed it, should go red when the train passes C. But doesn't until the train gets through another trailing junction.

I've taken the embarrassingly awful picture out of my previous thread and shall try to draw one more like yours. In the meantime I hope your picture plus my further explanation helps with understanding the problem.
 
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If you have a signal next to [signal B] to govern the points it may confuse signal B due to the overlapping control zones, on my subway route sometimes I get a signal that reds up, I check why and it will point me at the signal governing the route in the opposite direction. try moving either the invisible signal further away from the points so it is within the control length of the signal governing the reverse direction, this also helps prevent trains from going the wrong way up the line when occupied.
 
Aren't signals supposed to go red when they are passed? They turn yellow when a train leaves that block by passing the next signal. I'll post a revised Trainz diagram later. Hold on...
 
Large Pics. Thanks to Imagesack for free image hosting.

Here it is. Are we sitting comfortably?



Sigs A and B change as normal




Signal C doesn't change back when Sig D or E is passed:



I'll break up the posts but next we'll move the signal and see what that does.
 
Here we go:


The second loco!

But when it goes through it doesn't change.

When moved back...

It works!



It's all to do with a loco following it. Is this what your getting?

Phew, I need to sit down...:D

CoolMatty:)
 
Hi CoolMatty, you're up early!

You might have come across another problem but not the same as the one I was describing. Your train is approaching the facing side of the points. Mine comes from the trailing side.

Signal A is on the trailing side, signal B on the facing side, but for trains coming the other way. C, D, E etc are further down the track for the train that has gone through the points from the trailing side.

A signal such as B, on the "wrong" side of the track, is normally red but always goes yellow when a train passes it from its back side. It goes red again when the train passes the next signal on its side, C in my case.

The problem with my problem is that it is intermittent. Sometimes it works as it should, sometimes B does not go red again until the train passes the next set of trailing points.

I've got a .bmp drawing made showing all the signals but I can't make it go into a post. I've tried the img tag in the forum but that does not work, at least for the preview of my post.

Thanks too to Brute Airforce. I'll look into that but I thought there was a fixed link between signals such as B and A that A will stay at red as long as B is showing yellow or green, irrespective of how far apart they are.
 
I was up early. Dad woke me up with his singing...:D

1) For the pic problem, save it is a JEPG file then go to http://imageshack.us/ and host it.

2) Does this mean the train comes from the back of the signal rather than the front? The yellow when it is passed means that the block has become available for a train. I'll investigate what you ar saying and see if there is a fix.

Hope this helps!

CoolMatty
 
Is this what you mean?

The train coming from behind. You might need a signal along side it facing towards the train.

CoolMatty
 
G'day laldfordo,

Coolmatty has said:

You might need a signal along side it facing towards the train.
...there is NO "might" about this. Any self-respecting Signaling Engineer worth his salt would NEVER design a junction of this type WITHOUT protecting it with a signal in a location that would stop a train getting onto the actual points from EVERY direction from which a train COULD arrive. Thus, there MUST be a signal in front of the approaching train in coolmatty's last image and another on the approach side of the branch towards the left of the image!!

Jerker {:)}
 
Maybe I misread the problem here, but in Trainz, the signal won't change back to green; it stays red until a train is approaching. You can see this in the supplied screenshots; whenever there is no train approaching the signal, it's red, but when there's a train coming up to it it changes to reflect current conditions.

-Chris (tm)
 
G'day laldfordo,

Coolmatty has said:

...there is NO "might" about this. Any self-respecting Signaling Engineer worth his salt would NEVER design a junction of this type WITHOUT protecting it with a signal in a location that would stop a train getting onto the actual points from EVERY direction from which a train COULD arrive. Thus, there MUST be a signal in front of the approaching train in coolmatty's last image and another on the approach side of the branch towards the left of the image!!

Jerker {:)}

Trust me, I've seen many a British junction like the ones in the screenshots. :D I know of what it should be, I just set it up with the description supplied. I also believe the problem he said (which I rad wrong first) is that the signal goes yellow when passed from the back of the signal then red when it goes through the next facing signal. But I know Trainz doesn't show yellow (or green) untill a train is approaching the signal.

CoolMatty
 
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Closing down

Thanks for all your input. Suggest we terminate this thread as my description was not good enough to get focused responses. See new thread, same problem, but with picture = 1000 words.
 
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