psycho_aussie
Resident Psychotic Aussie
I've only just gotten back into Trainz, and found Vinny's LDP, 5000 and 6000 class locos... Very nice locos. It's sad that he's gone, but at least he can now rest. 
Sad news about a Trainzer.
- Thread starter narrowgauge
- Start date
narrowgauge
92 year oldTrainz veteran
Guys,
I'm pleased to tell you that VinnyBarb's web site has been moved across to my care, so the Domain and Site cost will be paid in the foreseeable future. I don't propose to make any changes, if I do, it will only be to change his contact email to mine.
I used 'foreseeable future' deliberately, at 87, I could 'çark' it (die) tomorrow so my foreseeable future is shorter than most which brings me to the point. What about the arrangement we discussed a couple of posts back, this won't happen unless it gets pushed.
Do I start a thread about this, are enough people interested to get N3V to become involved?
Peter
I'm pleased to tell you that VinnyBarb's web site has been moved across to my care, so the Domain and Site cost will be paid in the foreseeable future. I don't propose to make any changes, if I do, it will only be to change his contact email to mine.
I used 'foreseeable future' deliberately, at 87, I could 'çark' it (die) tomorrow so my foreseeable future is shorter than most which brings me to the point. What about the arrangement we discussed a couple of posts back, this won't happen unless it gets pushed.
Do I start a thread about this, are enough people interested to get N3V to become involved?
Peter
I know i am one of the biggest dissenter's here but are you really sure you want to trust N3V with Herb's mesh's ?, He was one of those who had the strongest voice in regard's their approach to content creation guideline's in which there was pretty much none what so ever,
Personally i'd much rather you start another thread and ask for assistance in who should be responsible for looking after his content, I know he trusted you Peter and that isn't in doubt here but please think about this before you hand over valuable content to those who are only interested in one thing and that is money.
Mick.
narrowgauge
92 year oldTrainz veteran
Mick
Don't forget that anything that Herbert uploaded to the DLS, is already within the control of N3V.
This below was my second thoughts on the subject and did not propose that mesh files would need to be stored by N3V, who only would only be the holders of a backup 'Succession List' containing the names of Trainzers who would like to make their content remain available after they depart from Trainz for any reason.
If anyone wanted to pass their mesh files to another because they are averse to using the DLS then that comment would be included in the list. Honestly I don't see any risk. No-one will be expected to hand their mesh files over to N3V.
Peter
Don't forget that anything that Herbert uploaded to the DLS, is already within the control of N3V.
This below was my second thoughts on the subject and did not propose that mesh files would need to be stored by N3V, who only would only be the holders of a backup 'Succession List' containing the names of Trainzers who would like to make their content remain available after they depart from Trainz for any reason.
If anyone wanted to pass their mesh files to another because they are averse to using the DLS then that comment would be included in the list. Honestly I don't see any risk. No-one will be expected to hand their mesh files over to N3V.
Peter
Fair enough Peter i would gladly help in any proposal in regard's to safe keeping of the mesh's as you would know the modern Aussie locos Herb made drawings are not available and he did it all from pictures he obtained over his back fence LOL, He had no problem putting his content on the DLS but he also guarded it with a passion as sum-one once re-skinned his AN Class into sum other scheme and Herb wasn't happy at all.
His content that is already on the DLS is beyond reach so to speak but i'd hate to see his hard work in getting that content there just handed over if you know what i mean Peter that's all.
Cheers Mick.
His content that is already on the DLS is beyond reach so to speak but i'd hate to see his hard work in getting that content there just handed over if you know what i mean Peter that's all.
Cheers Mick.
Let's keep the paranoia to a minimum. Meanwhile someone who has and maintains their own web site with their content can do whatever they want with it, it is theirs after all. The question is what happens to said content after they pass away. Ideally they left instructions in a will or if they have disposed of it prior to leaving, there is nothing more to do. It's when there are no explicit instruction that we have a problem. I suppose that in most jurisdictions, the estate would own it and the legal heirs can do with it what they want. Contacting them and getting legal access might be a challenge. Perhaps existing and future content creators could be asked to include in the config file or agree to separately a clause that would cover what happens to their content once they shuffle of this mortal coil.
Since the general Trainz community has an interest in maintaining access to and possibly updating them to newer standards, we need to find a way to do this. In order to minimize the potential of even further fragmenting the distribution of Trainz content. I would not be averse to having N3V maintain a repository of said content. How it would be managed would have to be negotiated. Could anyone who expressed an interest get a copy to work on it or would there be some kind of vetting process? Who decides?
If not N3V, who else gets to host this vault? Why should anyone else be trusted more? I don't know the answers but unless we agree to have something in place, the same question will come up again and again.
Since the general Trainz community has an interest in maintaining access to and possibly updating them to newer standards, we need to find a way to do this. In order to minimize the potential of even further fragmenting the distribution of Trainz content. I would not be averse to having N3V maintain a repository of said content. How it would be managed would have to be negotiated. Could anyone who expressed an interest get a copy to work on it or would there be some kind of vetting process? Who decides?
If not N3V, who else gets to host this vault? Why should anyone else be trusted more? I don't know the answers but unless we agree to have something in place, the same question will come up again and again.
Martin, and Malc got some great points!
I know for a fact, Herbert bumped head to head with N3V plenty of times; But he never told me about not uploading his contents to the DLS --- Years ago, he gave me permission to alter his contents -- send me a mesh for one of them, however, with that said, he was VERY protected of his work, and I was just one of the lucky one's ... Still, Herbert always went out to help others, especially when it came to contents, etc ... He never hesitated on this point! And he was always around the forums, even as far as using different alias.
Peter, before making any decision, I strongly suggest you send Tony a PM, or email directly to get his views on this issue, privately! Upon his replied to, then make a sound decision on your next step! Regardless of what folks might said about N3V, the foundation of trainz begins here, and his works can be protected under their banner.... With that said, I say reach out to Tony!!!
Ish
I know for a fact, Herbert bumped head to head with N3V plenty of times; But he never told me about not uploading his contents to the DLS --- Years ago, he gave me permission to alter his contents -- send me a mesh for one of them, however, with that said, he was VERY protected of his work, and I was just one of the lucky one's ... Still, Herbert always went out to help others, especially when it came to contents, etc ... He never hesitated on this point! And he was always around the forums, even as far as using different alias.
Peter, before making any decision, I strongly suggest you send Tony a PM, or email directly to get his views on this issue, privately! Upon his replied to, then make a sound decision on your next step! Regardless of what folks might said about N3V, the foundation of trainz begins here, and his works can be protected under their banner.... With that said, I say reach out to Tony!!!
Ish
narrowgauge
92 year oldTrainz veteran
Matruck:- Herbert gave me his meshes just in case one of them is needed to correct a problem. No more than that. There is no intention of handing them out to all and sundry. They are still 'his' not mine. I am just a caretaker. Don't confuse my having his content on my hard disk with the proposal I am presenting.
Ish. Before I contact Tony, I want to get some sort of agreement about what we want, and equally what we don't want.
Consider these points.
Creativity. I have long felt that Trainz has given the average person the means to be creative and we retain a possessive interest in our creation, no less than an artist or author. When we leave Trainz, some may feel that their work should not be lost or forgotten
Mesh files. Storing these was briefly considered but discarded because of storage volume and cost. ( there are points to consider that I will list later)
Copyright. That is what this is all about. Assuming that our content copyright is the same as a painting or book, it is a fair bet that Trainz will not exist when the copyright runs out. This is what this discussion should be about. Take my caretaking of Herbert's content, he gave me the goods but I legally have no right to do anything with them apart from perhaps replacing lost items, because he did not transfer his copyrights. It may have been his intent but nothing is on record. When someone leaves Trainz, their copyrights go with them, they leave us with their hard copy but we have no right to change it.
The mesh and textures are the nucleus of our content creations, the rest is just words and this is how we work. We think nothing about copying the words but copyright constrains us from copying the real content. All this is as it should be and I am not suggesting it should change. However when someone leaves Trainz their creations are in limbo, they can be used but not rebuilt to suit game code changes. Even worse, if the content is hosted on a non-DLS web site, if the owner departs, the web site dies, and so does all the stored content.
I propose that we have a frequently updated list stored in several areas that contains the users instructions for the transfer of copyright in the event of departure from Trainz It would be entirely voluntary. I suggest that it could contain the following:-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trainz User ID
Assignee:-
N 3V
or
Alternative User ID
or
Free from copyright
Trigger:-
Departure from Trainz
or
Death
or
Either
Statement:-
If I cease to be active In Trainz I ask that any copyrights I may have for my created content should be assigned as requested.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realise that this may have no legal standing but as we are not considering anything of significant monetary value, I don't think that legality is a problem.
Finally back to the subject of mesh files and storage. If content is on the DLS and N3V are assigned the copyright then they can re-generate the original max file and rework it. If the creator does not use the DLS then the storage of his content is his responsibility. If all the creator's files are lost, then it is still possible for users with copies of the original content to host it or distribute it person to person, and even modify the original meshes and textures.
Thanks for reading
Peter
PS I have used Trainz not T:ane as I believe that most people prefer the older name.
Ish. Before I contact Tony, I want to get some sort of agreement about what we want, and equally what we don't want.
Consider these points.
Creativity. I have long felt that Trainz has given the average person the means to be creative and we retain a possessive interest in our creation, no less than an artist or author. When we leave Trainz, some may feel that their work should not be lost or forgotten
Mesh files. Storing these was briefly considered but discarded because of storage volume and cost. ( there are points to consider that I will list later)
Copyright. That is what this is all about. Assuming that our content copyright is the same as a painting or book, it is a fair bet that Trainz will not exist when the copyright runs out. This is what this discussion should be about. Take my caretaking of Herbert's content, he gave me the goods but I legally have no right to do anything with them apart from perhaps replacing lost items, because he did not transfer his copyrights. It may have been his intent but nothing is on record. When someone leaves Trainz, their copyrights go with them, they leave us with their hard copy but we have no right to change it.
The mesh and textures are the nucleus of our content creations, the rest is just words and this is how we work. We think nothing about copying the words but copyright constrains us from copying the real content. All this is as it should be and I am not suggesting it should change. However when someone leaves Trainz their creations are in limbo, they can be used but not rebuilt to suit game code changes. Even worse, if the content is hosted on a non-DLS web site, if the owner departs, the web site dies, and so does all the stored content.
I propose that we have a frequently updated list stored in several areas that contains the users instructions for the transfer of copyright in the event of departure from Trainz It would be entirely voluntary. I suggest that it could contain the following:-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trainz User ID
Assignee:-
N 3V
or
Alternative User ID
or
Free from copyright
Trigger:-
Departure from Trainz
or
Death
or
Either
Statement:-
If I cease to be active In Trainz I ask that any copyrights I may have for my created content should be assigned as requested.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realise that this may have no legal standing but as we are not considering anything of significant monetary value, I don't think that legality is a problem.
Finally back to the subject of mesh files and storage. If content is on the DLS and N3V are assigned the copyright then they can re-generate the original max file and rework it. If the creator does not use the DLS then the storage of his content is his responsibility. If all the creator's files are lost, then it is still possible for users with copies of the original content to host it or distribute it person to person, and even modify the original meshes and textures.
Thanks for reading
Peter
PS I have used Trainz not T:ane as I believe that most people prefer the older name.
I agree in principle. If that instruction statement could be made part of the config file or part of the upload process then going forward new and updated assets would be covered. Still leaves a whole lot of old and potentially never to be updated assets in limbo but one step at a time.
The sooner the better and anyone who doesn't want to be part of this is under no obligation to participate. This should be a completely opt-in process and unilaterally revocable. Since nothing happens until death or departure, current restrictions and usage of any assets would not be affected.
The sooner the better and anyone who doesn't want to be part of this is under no obligation to participate. This should be a completely opt-in process and unilaterally revocable. Since nothing happens until death or departure, current restrictions and usage of any assets would not be affected.
R.I.P VinnyBarb. Did not know him well as I had only spoken to him only a couple of time through PM regarding his AN locos that I had seen in his sig. Thought I had already posted this message already ages ago in this thread but I might be losing it as I can't seem to find it. Too many people losing the battle with cancer.
Did not know him well as I had only spoken to him only a couple of time through PM regarding his AN locos that I had seen in his sig. Thought I had already posted this message already ages ago in this thread but I might be losing it as I can't seem to find it. Too many people losing the battle with cancer. narrowgauge
92 year oldTrainz veteran
AJ
I don't know why you said this, it seems out of context in the discussion of treatment of ONLY Trainz creations. I fear that relying on 'the hypothetical family' to treat "Dads' computer trainset kindly would never work, loss of a husband or parent is too unsettling to permit any attention to dad's hobby.
Herbert did not deprive his family of any benefit from his creations, he just passed them to me to host and although it wasn't mentioned, care for and maintain his web site.
Do you have any thoughts about the more formalised caretaking arrangement that I suggested. You and I have been Trainzers for a long time, 15+ years.. Think back and remember all those who joined, created and then left without preservation of their creations.
Perhaps I should create a thread on the subject.
Peter
I don't know why you said this, it seems out of context in the discussion of treatment of ONLY Trainz creations. I fear that relying on 'the hypothetical family' to treat "Dads' computer trainset kindly would never work, loss of a husband or parent is too unsettling to permit any attention to dad's hobby.
Herbert did not deprive his family of any benefit from his creations, he just passed them to me to host and although it wasn't mentioned, care for and maintain his web site.
Do you have any thoughts about the more formalised caretaking arrangement that I suggested. You and I have been Trainzers for a long time, 15+ years.. Think back and remember all those who joined, created and then left without preservation of their creations.
Perhaps I should create a thread on the subject.
Peter
amigacooke
Well-known member
I think that would be advisable, it would be a good idea to abstract the subject, rather than dealing with a particular case.
Respectfully, either we treat trainz creations like any other creation be it art, literature,etc and it follows normal copyright and inheritance rules OR they are not important and it's just something to deal with among friends here. I don't thing we can have it both ways. Claim copyright infringement and then have some people threaten to sue for alleged infractions while at the same time take ownership because someone isn't here anymore for whatever reason. A new thread would be the appropriate venue to continue this aspect.
Continued here
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Hi Peter,
I knew Herbert very well -- He helped me with content creations; And we talked a lot via emails and PM through the years! I still have his PM's, etc. Then he told me about his diagnose, and then I told him about my mother passing away from cancer in 2008; And ever since that day I asked him about his health, and he always kept me updated. One day I asked this: "Herbert, if anything happens to you, do you have a family member who can tell us here in the forum", and then he replied "I have someone from the forum, Ish, he'll let you know", and then I asked about his contents.... and he said, paraphrasing here "I'll given him owner ship of all my creations, plus a hard drive filled with stuff" ... so I said, thanks Herbert for telling me, dear friend, at least I would know ... He kept me updated on his daily visit to the clinics, etc ... I guess since my mom died from cancer, I know how much pain people go to...
Since you are that person Peter, as far as I am concern, and as far as Herbert was concerned, all of his creations are yours to do what you like, sir! You're the owner of it all!
Take Care Peter
Ish
I knew Herbert very well -- He helped me with content creations; And we talked a lot via emails and PM through the years! I still have his PM's, etc. Then he told me about his diagnose, and then I told him about my mother passing away from cancer in 2008; And ever since that day I asked him about his health, and he always kept me updated. One day I asked this: "Herbert, if anything happens to you, do you have a family member who can tell us here in the forum", and then he replied "I have someone from the forum, Ish, he'll let you know", and then I asked about his contents.... and he said, paraphrasing here "I'll given him owner ship of all my creations, plus a hard drive filled with stuff" ... so I said, thanks Herbert for telling me, dear friend, at least I would know ... He kept me updated on his daily visit to the clinics, etc ... I guess since my mom died from cancer, I know how much pain people go to...
Since you are that person Peter, as far as I am concern, and as far as Herbert was concerned, all of his creations are yours to do what you like, sir! You're the owner of it all!
Take Care Peter
Ish