reskin permission from people who left?

[johnwhelan]

I don't disagree that the original texture is part of the model and for that reason I wouldn't dream of taking the original texture and re-issuing it.

A re-skin is a new texture that isn't part of the model. Yes it has to be the same name, file type and even mapped the same way as the original because its designed to fit on the original... but it won't be a copy of the original.



Because if its on the DLS it won't BE redistributed. The original model is already on the DLS.

A re-skin is (or should be) completely new original material that just 'fits' into the existing asset.

The original model does not get re-distributed!

Now... lets all make our own minds up

Boat

I would agree that distributing a texture that fits a mesh would be fine provided that it is not derived from the original texture. That's the way the IBM Bios was first broken by creating a new work from the interface definitions. However you don't have these available to you so it would have to be done by trial and error. Very difficult to do without reference to the original texture file.

Again packaging it up would be a problem you'd need to not include the mesh etc but then the DLS wouldn't accept it.

Cheerio John

 

[Johnk]

Then you'll be familiar with the term "Moral Rights" as defined in the Australian Copyright Act .. and possibly with this gentleman > Charles Alexander , a partner in the firm that employs my sister as a senior counsel . Unlike many posting here , I live in Australia ... and so do you

Sci

No I don't know Mr Alexander and no, I've never met your sister.

No I wasn't aware of the Moral Rights legislation because it was released after I left the college. I did take time to read it however and thank you for bringing it to our attention. It really does re-enforce my argument that it's the content creators who are breaking all the laws. Tut-tut.

As in the past, it's the architect or designer who owns copyright, and ownership and that lasts for the life of the author plus 70 years. In my time it used to be 50 years, In the case of Trainz, that's neither here nor there. As far as GM is concerned however, they would be the author and their employees, the draughtsmen, would be the servants. As GM is still around (I think) we'll have to wait a while until the 70 year clock starts ticking.

In the meantime, we must seek written permission to make models from any of their drawings and acknowledge GM as the rightful owner. It says that in the legislation. Now my guess is that they probably don't give a hoot. In fact they're probably happy that you're interested enough to want to use their drawings. On the same token, I think you also have to accept that you've used the drawing without permission and as such, you have no moral right of ownership to anything created from that drawing.

You could claim that you used novel methods to create your model, but the Judge probably wouldn't be overly interested. I think we all need to float down to earth on this one and accept that by placing stuff on the DLS it's akin to placing stuff in the public domain. Provided others don't claim it as their work, what's it matter anyway. I'd be elated if I know someone out there found my model good enough to reskin.

Maybe then we can all move on.

How old is your sister?

 

[leeferr]

Again packaging it up would be a problem you'd need to not include the mesh etc but then the DLS wouldn't accept it.

Exactly my point. Thanks John

Mike

 

[Pencil42]

As in the past, it's the architect or designer who owns copyright, and ownership and that lasts for the life of the author plus 70 years. <deleted> As GM is still around (I think) we'll have to wait a while until the 70 year clock starts ticking.

In the US (which is not necessarily the same as Australia ), corporate copyrights ('works for hire') last 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation, whichever is shorter.
In the US, architectural designs pre-1990 are not copyrightable, and in the public domain. Any work pre-1978 is not copyrighted unless specifically published with a copyright notice - there is no assumption of copyright like there is for works published in 1978 or later. And, anything published before 1923 is in the public domain.

I think we all need to float down to earth on this one and accept that by placing stuff on the DLS it's akin to placing stuff in the public domain.

No, there is a specific legal agreement that covers uploading to the DLS - in essence, you give Auran the right to redistribute your content, but you do not give up any of your rights.

I'd be elated if I know someone out there found my model good enough to reskin.

Me, too :wave:

 

[paulhobbs]

It seems rather strange to claim that if I take a photo of a BMW then copyright on the photo belongs to BMW. If I take a set of plans (most usually these would have been drawn and published by somebody other than the original copyright holder) and make a 3D model using them then the copyright on the model belongs to me as it's my interpretation of the original, my work and not a direct copy.

I may have infringed copyright by scanning the published plan but I am not distributing the plans. Before anybody starts getting their knickers in a twist I should add that my understanding is that scanning plans is not illegal in Germany for two reasons. Firstly when you buy a scanner here you pay a fee that allows you to make copies for your own personal use and secondly I have a legal right to make a backup copy of anything I buy such as drawings, DVDs, CDs and MP3s providing I don't break any copy protection.

It's also wrong to say (IMHO) that a reskin infringes copyright providing that no part of the original skin is used and that no original files are included. This is perfectly possible using the alias keyword in the config so that no meshes need to be distributed. I don't buy the arguement that the the mapping comes into the equation as this is part of the mesh and not the texture. I have to admit I'm with boat on this one.

Paul

 

[Johnk]

Post removed

 

[boat]

Second, When you upload a reskin to the DLS, you don't just package the texture file and upload it, you upload the entire package to include the meshes of the original. You are in fact uploading a mesh which isn't your property. If your uploaded package includes ONLY a texture file (no meshes)that can then be downloaded by a member and then used by the member for their own personal use (not to be redistributed), then I'd agree with you.

Mike

This is factually incorrect. This is what I'm trying to get across. When you upload a re-skin, (if it’s done properly) you do NOT upload the mesh as well.

A re-skin (done as it should be done) merely ‘aliases’ the original mesh which is already on the DLS. If you don’t have the original asset on your your system the re-skin is worthless

I would agree that distributing a texture that fits a mesh would be fine provided that it is not derived from the original texture. That's the way the IBM Bios was first broken by creating a new work from the interface definitions. However you don't have these available to you so it would have to be done by trial and error. Very difficult to do without reference to the original texture file.

Yes, you would need to look at the original texture file to check where certain areas are mapped but you could re-create it from scratch if you want to. The difficulty would depend on the complexity of the mapping and the skills of the re-texter. There are other files that would need to be duplicated as well but for most trains, (unless its really special) all these could be re-created from scratch if its a problem.

Again packaging it up would be a problem you'd need to not include the mesh etc but then the DLS wouldn't accept it.

Factually incorrect. The DLS will accept it if its an alias.... which is what a re-skin should be.

Paul Hobbs... Thank you!

Boat

 

[johnwhelan]

So this is what I've been trying to ascertain all along. It's also the key to Matt's original question:

"I would like to know if I still need permission to release a reskin of a train car from someone who has left the trainz community."

After nine pages of debate, it is generally agreed that:

• You can reskin a model for your own personal use.
• You can distribute a texture that fits someone else's mesh provided your texture is not derived from the owner's original texture file.
• You must not attempt to upload the texture to the DLS.
• You must not attempt to upload your texture and the original mesh to the DLS.
• (In this case distribute means between friends or your own web site. Mesh means the original author's 3D drawing regardless of what program is used to create it.)
• The original author must be given full credit for the original model when distributing your texture.
• The texture should be promoted as an option, not a replacement.
• The author's original work should not be altered,criticised or degraded in any way.

The above also applies if you can't locate the author through these forums, Private Messaging, EMail or any other available avenues.

In this case, these additional restrictions apply

• You cannot claim ownership of the original mesh.
• You cannot distribute the original mesh between friends or on your web site. They must download it from the DLS in the usual way.

it would be great if everyone involved in this thread could endorse these recommendations. It won't make them binding or legal, but at least it's a start and it gives prospective re-skinner's a guide.

John

No it is not generally agreed at all. Whether on not the DLS is involved does not change anything.

Copyright varies from country to country. I totally agree with Paul's statement if I take a photograph of a BMW then BMW does not own the copyright. If it were the case think of all the web cams in the world showing traffic conditions.

Cheerio John

 

[paulhobbs]

• You must not attempt to upload the texture to the DLS.

I don't see why this should apply if the reskin is all my own work and under my own kuid as an alias. The original author might not like it but I think he would have a really hard time stopping somebody who wanted to do this. I assume that as AFAIK the DLS servers are in the US then US law would apply, not Australian.

Paul

 

[boat]

And I'd also add, as my last post tonight, as far as I'm concerned none of my comments/opinions are designed so we can all go around re-skinning willy-nilly, against original authors wishes.

They are in answer to the original question. What happens if the original creator has left trainz.

If an author has strong views against that, whether we CAN or not… we shouldn’t! But in the above case, perhaps we can!

Good night,

Boat

 

[VinnyBarb]

None taken, Euphod.

Its just that I really think people are inventing problems here. I'm not looking for 'ways round things' because to my mind 'things' don't exist.

How can you be infringing a copyright with a re-skin? You're not re-issuing the mesh, your referencing, (aliasing) it. The mesh is not contained in the asset you upload, its already on the DLS! You are merely supplying an asset containing new textures that YOU have created and are YOUR copyright.
So the argument for needing any permission, (other than out of courtesy) for a re-skin doesn’t hold water to me. If the original ‘licence’ specifically forbids this, (which I think is unreasonable and not in my view in the spirit of Trainz), then OK, leave it…. but otherwise, it’s not a ‘loophole’, it’s just Trainz!

What I want to do - re-issue the whole asset including mesh to make it TS 2010 may be a different issue and open for debate. But I don’t agree that we should just say goodbye to decent work. I also find it difficult to understand why people object to doing this in the case of departed creators! Again, if an individual author has made it clear that it’s a no-no then fine…. (Still not my view of Trainz though!)

Happy days,

Boat

You might be twisting and turning with your opinions but the fact remains, reskins and/or uses of meshes WITHOUT the consent of the creator if specifically and explicitly stated in the configuration details are just that, No reskins and NO uses of such whether still living or passed away is IMHO not allowable.

Now what about the use of meshes and partly use of the textures used when stating specifically and explicitly NO without written consent in the configuration details/licence and it still happens as it just happened to me:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=52482

NO permission, NO reskins, NO uses. As simple as that!

My opinion

VinnyBarb

 

[pommie]

C'mon people, its a moot point, the legality of the situation makes no difference whether the creator is active or not, just because they have left trainz does not mean their copyright is null and void, if they do hold copyright (not open to debate in this post) when active they hold it when inactive full stop
The debate should be "do you need permission to re-skin" when you cannot reach the creator after a decent attempt to do so.

My opinion is that if aliased its ok, but if the creator forbids it in the config then its just not on.

@Vinnybarb "NO permission, NO reskins, NO uses. As simple as that!"
erm No uses, that means I cannot use it in trainz, I know what you mean, but that is a flat statement that states DO NOT USE, careful with the wording

Cheers David

 

[tmz06003]

The DLS will accept it if its an alias.... which is what a re-skin should be.

Boat

I think the Auran stance may be changing on this, the clue is in TRS2010, where the warning message "aliased reskins are no longer supported" appears in CMP against all aliased reskins. Yes they still work in that version though.

A big problem with aliased reskins is where LOD is involved, it works only for the highest poly mesh, when you draw back to the medium or low poly mesh the parent asset textures appear, which is very annoying! This is a bug that has been present since the alias system was created. Adding the lower res textures makes no difference, they are just not picked up by the alias reskin and it is impossible to disable LOD on the reskin, this can only be done on the parent asset which again is not a viable solution.

 

[boat]

I think the Auran stance may be changing on this, the clue is in TRS2010, where the warning message "aliased reskins are no longer supported" appears in CMP against all aliased reskins. Yes they still work in that version though.

A big problem with aliased reskins is where LOD is involved, it works only for the highest poly mesh, when you draw back to the medium or low poly mesh the parent asset textures appear, which is very annoying! This is a bug that has been present since the alias system was created. Adding the lower res textures makes no difference, they are just not picked up by the alias reskin and it is impossible to disable LOD on the reskin, this can only be done on the parent asset which again is not a viable solution.

Hi tmz,

I rather thought the message was along the lines of... "Aliased meshes cannot be confimed or accessed" or something like that. Don't think it said 'not supported'. Not at home at the moment so can't check.

Also, one of my assets which aliases a TafWeb assest I noticed is 'built-in' to TS 2010 so I wouldn't suggest the Alias method is on its way out.
Take your point about the LOD stuff though I hadn't noticed that

Boat

Boat

 

[tmz06003]

Hi tmz,

I rather thought the message was along the lines of... "Aliased meshes cannot be confimed or accessed" or something like that. Don't think it said 'not supported'. Not at home at the moment so can't check.

Also, one of my assets which aliases a TafWeb assest I noticed is 'built-in' to TS 2010 so I wouldn't suggest the Alias method is on its way out.
Take your point about the LOD stuff though I hadn't noticed that

Boat

Boat

That's interesting- is your built in asset exactly the same in TRS2010 (ie still aliased)?

I think the actual term may be 'cannot be verified' (still guessing maybe I should actually check it!!), but throwing a warning may be a sign that aliasing may be obsoleted at some point? Maybe someone from Auran could explain if this has any future implications?

 

[boat]

That's interesting- is your built in asset exactly the same in TRS2010 (ie still aliased)?

I think the actual term may be 'cannot be verified' (still guessing maybe I should actually check it!!), but throwing a warning may be a sign that aliasing may be obsoleted at some point? Maybe someone from Auran could explain if this has any future implications?

I’ve just taken a look and the actual wording is…..

Warning: Aliased meshes cannot currently be verified by Trainz.

The word ‘currently’ suggests to me that they may be in the future.

And yes, my asset is still an alias in TS 2010. Its kuid 76656 60024, Sen City Siding Gate 2, which aliases TaFWeb’s original asset… kuid 1942:38107, Siding Gate 2.

If you open the folder in TS 2010 all you will see in mine is a config file. All the meshes and (in this case) textures are in TaFweb’s asset, (which is also built-in to TS 2010)

This wasn’t a re-skin. It was just an update of the config file to make it work better in TRS 2004 and above. Terry’s original asset was for a previous version of Trainz. Then, it was not possible for an asset to update its track to adjoining track. Thus you had a superb model that retained a very basic Auran track and it looked odd when placed against more modern track. By updating it to allow adjoining track changing it became even more popular, (76,000 downloads) right up to TS 2010 evidentially. As I say in its description, this is Terry’s work, not mine. All I did was a minimal modification to modernise it.

Yes, TafWeb could have updated himself but I’m sure he was busy with far better assets at the time…. And I needed it for a project I was doing, hence the impetus for me to do it. In this case his ‘licence’ specifically allowed this to be done and I have subsequently had his permission.

All the best,

Boat

 

[tmz06003]

And yes, my asset is still an alias in TS 2010. Its kuid 76656 60024, Sen City Siding Gate 2, which aliases TaFWeb’s original asset… kuid 1942:38107, Siding Gate 2.

Boat

Ah, that asset- I must admit I use yours in preference for exactly the reason you have given, that the track changes when you connect it. It's interesting to see built in scenery content being included as an alias, I had thought I'd have to 'un-alias' my own reskinned assets for the part of TRS2010 ECML I'm building but now I'll leave it well alone.

 

[ianwoodmore]

I've actually come across 33 builtins that alias another asset. As there are many duplications of assets that are both on DLS and TS2010 builtins I expect we will find a good many more.

 

[rwk]

What about stuff like highway exit signs, tractor trailer trucks, etc. where the author says that reskinning is allowed? The whole point of releasing the blank highway sign was so that people could reskin it. But, one of Leeferr's locomotives, if I reskinned the tender to say "Blue Mountain & Reading" to replace "Reading" like with the T-1 #2102 model, if I ever did release the layout (probably not for a long while if ever) could I release the reskinned #2102 with it stored in the engine shop at Port Clinton, the Reading and Northern's headquarters as I am modeling the present day with Reading and Northern Railroad, the regional railroad on ex-Reading, Lehigh Valley and CNJ lines in eastern PA based in Port Clinton, PA using layouts originally created by Ronneth Josh Drumm but I have created my own DEM to combine and expand the layout into one huge layout since most of the Lehigh Line above Jim Thorpe was omitted from the original layout and I wanted to include Reading, PA as well so I merged the NS Reading Line layout as well and added on blank DEM at both ends to have a route from Harrisburg, PA to Manville, NJ (Norfolk Southern) on the same route as the Reading and Northern lines. The layout will eventually include Steamtown lines out of Scranton as well, my own DEM is there but not built on yet. What about bendorsey's coaches, which you can rename for your own railroad name and repaint as well. I changed the color of a coach to maroon for the Reading, Blue Mountain and Northern and relettered it in the config file and created a new version of the coach with my own KUID, leaving the original alone. There are some items where reskinning is ok.

Euphod, I reskinned a 4-6-2 into Reading and Northern #425 and painted it blue, relettered and renumbered it. I forget which one I used to create the reskin, but I of course have never released it just used it for my own personal use. If I ever wanted to who would I ask, since the model was created by several creators including you. There are several good Reading and Northern diesels out there some payware like at rrmods.com, and free ones on the DLS by SPORBUST and at uslw.com (I have them all now) but no one bothered to do a model of the #425 steam locomotive used on public excursions (restored late 2007 after 11 years sitting in the enginehouse at Port Clinton) so I reskinned it myself. The 4-6-2 models on the DLS look amost exactly like #425 looks now, with the centered headlight and bell in front of the smokestack. What about if a user just wants to change one thing, like a hornsound but keep the rest of the model the same? Like changing the kuid of the hornsound in the config to point to a different one. One way to have a custom model done for you is to have Paul of Paulz Trainz do one for you for a small fee. I put in a request to him, and he made a few models like Lehigh and New England bobber caboose and Lackawanna Boonton coach which you'll find on his site and the Reading T-1 4-8-4 but Leeferr's is better. I have zero knowledge to create a train, or building from scratch but I know how to reskin. I never released anything, though and I've had Trainz 2004 since late 2003. I just like to build or add onto layouts and run trainz sometimes. If I ever did release the layout I would have to ask permission from the original creators of parts of the layout and ask permission from several different authors of trainz and buildings that I reskinned to include them on the layout. Like, the model of Tunkhannock, PA ex-Lehigh Valley station on the current Reading and Northern Railroad uses the Frater station with photos of the actual Tunkhannock station. And TUME's Milw dome car which I reskinned into Reading and Northern, and Norfolk Southern but he already gave me the ok to release them if I wanted to since I asked him. I'm a big fan of eastern PA railroads like the Reading and Northern and other tourist railroads that operate steam.

 

[trainzamtrakfan]

so is this pretty much as illegal as torrenting / bittorents ?1?!?!