Rather than TS13 how about...

[VinnyBarb]

I have to give the OP credit to highlight some of the issues that trouble him and I mean issues, some serious ones too, not just imaginary happenings, that do plague some of us sometimes. Obviously, the OP knows what he is talking about and I guess no "public relation spiel" by anyone on N3V Games end will alter that or can gloss over it.

My DLS d/loading issues are "legendary" and are still with me for the last 12 to 18 months. They seem to have improved lately but all is still not as it should be. I have to give credit to Tony Hilliam, as he personally contacted me recently, for him to run certain d/loading checks. Which I did with some mixed results with 3 different internet browser. Anyway, I gave up complaining as I was told at various times, the fault is on my end, firewall issues, antivir programs or other programs interfering etc. Strange, when one deactivates these firewall and antivir programs, in a couple of cases I even uninstalled these but the results then were still the same, intermittent trouble with d/loads etc.

I must have spend hours and hours chasing imaginary problems on my PCs, as nothing did fix my issues. Shaneturner12 supplied me with a utility which showed me there was nothing wrong with my PC. Strange that I can d/load from Bethesda, EA Games, Bioware, Blizzard, Egosoft, MicroSoft Games etc. updates, upgrades, mods, utilities or what have you, as much and as many various items from these sites, it is only N3V Games that I encounter troubles and issues with, despite having a "lifelong" FCT.

It is no good for others to say, "I have no trouble with my PC", well, that is you and good luck to you that all is working for you. As I was told so often in the past. Or even some here on this forum to lambast the OP for outlining his concern about some of his issues. He would not have raised them if he would not have had some and also doing this in articulated and well mannered postings by him as well.

TS12 bug? Well, I am waiting too for a major upgrade but I will not get my hopes up anytime SOON TM.

My opinion

VinnyBarb

 

[Robert2d6]

If you're such an expert, get out and make your own Train Simulator please. I'd love to see the results of a 'professional'

Jamie

I agree, especially considering that the OP has only been around for about 2 months, he sure seems to know it all.

 

[ftldave]

I agree, especially considering that the OP has only been around for about 2 months, he sure seems to know it all.

Two months of using Trainz is enough for someone experienced with computers, software, and simulations to see its major shortcomings. And while I think the OP is looking for perfection that's never going to be achieved, he did raise some good points. If anything, I think the LISTEN-TO-WHAT-I-SAY use of all caps is his greatest shortcoming. "Shouting" doesn't help anyone get their point across ... except maybe for drill sargeants, prison guards and thugs.

I can relate to his comments about what's allowed on the DLS. I've never understood why content with missing third-party assets is allowed when there's the real chance that they can never be located. Zec said "This may change." I hope so since, for me, that ruins much of the value of the DLS. As for the OP's calling for no new version until all his beefs are fixed, well, that's rather naive. Software companies and their marketing departments don't work that way. All the bugs won't be fixed when a new version finally comes about, and Trainz 2012 won't ever be THE perfect railroad sim, just maybe the best in its time.

 

[Robert2d6]

Two months of using Trainz is enough for someone experienced with computers, software, and simulations to see its major shortcomings. And while I think the OP is looking for perfection that's never going to be achieved, he did raise some good points. If anything, I think the LISTEN-TO-WHAT-I-SAY use of all caps is his greatest shortcoming. "Shouting" doesn't help anyone get their point across ... except maybe for drill sargeants, prison guards and thugs.

I can relate to his comments about what's allowed on the DLS. I've never understood why content with missing third-party assets is allowed when there's the real chance that they can never be located. Zec said "This may change." I hope so since, for me, that ruins much of the value of the DLS. As for the OP's calling for no new version until all his beefs are fixed, well, that's rather naive. Software companies and their marketing departments don't work that way. All the bugs won't be fixed when a new version finally comes about, and Trainz 2012 won't ever be THE perfect railroad sim, just maybe the best in its time.

I wonder when Microsoft and Apple will release their "perfect" OS?

 

[rjc0235]

probarbly off topic, but what i think NV3 should do is continue 2012 support, but completely re-design everything.

the game engine is very very old, nearly 10 years, and while it has so much content, as i found with 2012, the content quality varied wildly, and just dosent seem as professional as railworks / train simulator. i think they should take a couple of years off and start from scrath. of course impliment amny wonderful thinks fron previous trainz titles like the DLS and the incredible map creator, but just work from ground up

 

[shaneturner12]

Bear in mind that content is mainly community-produced, so be very careful what you say regarding that, as it may offend some creators.

Shane

 

[Robert2d6]

probarbly off topic, but what i think NV3 should do is continue 2012 support, but completely re-design everything.

the game engine is very very old, nearly 10 years, and while it has so much content, as i found with 2012, the content quality varied wildly, and just dosent seem as professional as railworks / train simulator. i think they should take a couple of years off and start from scrath. of course impliment amny wonderful thinks fron previous trainz titles like the DLS and the incredible map creator, but just work from ground up

I for one, don't have $1,000- 1500 to spend on Railworks routes and rolling stock, which seems to be the typical amount that Railworks owners spend. In addition, when RW upgrades their program , like they did a couple of months ago, whether owners wanted the upgrade or not, some of the older routes and rolling stock (all payware) ceased to work at all. I have installed about 50+ routes in my TS12, in the last 4 months, the majority of them free, and many of them are spectacular. Just last evening I downloaded some FEF steam engines, that RW would probably charge at least $20 for, for free. I have free routes that take almost a half day to drive, with great scenery. I have believable physics where you don't see a 100 car consist going up a 2% grade at 10% power.

I typically get frame rates in the 60s, my graphics look great, my program doesn't crash and burn, and the add ons are endless. Name me one other sim that has those features, and I might switch, but until then, I am a very satisfied owner of TS12.

 

[rickf77]

I WISH I could create ANYTHING that I thought was worthy of uploading to the site. The vast majority of what's in the DSL is first class all the way, and I am truly thankful that the creators who have put so much of their time and effort into their work have shared it with us all. Every now and then though, I wonder, "How did that item ever make it in here?" But, if you don't like something, nobody is forcing you to use it.

Cheers.......Rick

 

[kd7eirjim]

Slow down a minute....

1.I can agree regarding the Quick Drive.
2.That is true, but bear in mind that most content for Trainz is community-generated.
3.Have you contacted Helpdesk over this? If not, now's the time to do so.
4.I must pick bones on this one. The company they are using has had previous issues with reliability (from memory), as well as being based in another country (Houston, TX, USA). As a result, N3V probably don't have access to the low-level configuration required for it to run smoothly.
5.Errors and missing dependencies are two completely different things. You use View Dependencies to find out what dependencies are missing.
6.Cost is a major part on this. Do you know how much it costs to have someone with that kind of skill? Probably quite a bit, as you would probably know.
7.You cannot directly compare an operating system with a train simulation game, as there is a lot more code in an operating system. As a matter of fact, the designer of Windows 8 was recently fired.

Shane

1) Nothing more to say here.
2) Yes, and what a great, giving community it is. My beef is with N3V's servers, not the creators.
3) Helpdesk is aware of the issue, have been for quite some time now.
4) I am well aware of the failings of softlayer.com. Frankly with their dismal record, there is no excuse for a serious company to use them.
5) I learned how to find missing dependencies thank to this forum. I am referring to the "phantom" reporting of bad assets by the database when in fact the asset is perfectly ok.
6) I am most certainly aware of what a good database administrator is worth! I also know that when you develop a product that heavily relies on a database, you cannot afford to not have a good database administrator on the payroll.
7) I did not make the OS/game comparison, I merely expounded upon it to point out the futility of such comparison.

 

[kd7eirjim]

I for one, don't have $1,000- 1500 to spend on Railworks routes and rolling stock, which seems to be the typical amount that Railworks owners spend. In addition, when RW upgrades their program , like they did a couple of months ago, whether owners wanted the upgrade or not, some of the older routes and rolling stock (all payware) ceased to work at all. I have installed about 50+ routes in my TS12, in the last 4 months, the majority of them free, and many of them are spectacular. Just last evening I downloaded some FEF steam engines, that RW would probably charge at least $20 for, for free. I have free routes that take almost a half day to drive, with great scenery. I have believable physics where you don't see a 100 car consist going up a 2% grade at 10% power.

I typically get frame rates in the 60s, my graphics look great, my program doesn't crash and burn, and the add ons are endless. Name me one other sim that has those features, and I might switch, but until then, I am a very satisfied owner of TS12.

I agree with you 100% Robert2d6 - that is why I am so passionate about the issues with TS12 being fixed. If I wanted to use the competition I would be here expressing my concerns.

 

[shaneturner12]

I know what you mean regarding the servers. Unfortunately, I don't think most web-hosting companies could handle what N3V requires especially with the size of the Download Station, and factoring in the forums,helpdesk etc.

As for 'phantom' reportings, this is a known issue since TS2010. There is a workaround though, and that is detailed in the TS2010 forum.

Even with a good database administrator on the payroll, that cannot guarantee that it will run smoothly on every user's system, especially as systems can vary quite a bit. Sometimes, it's actually due to the user not following instructions correctly, or not being aware of permission issues.

I agree that it would be futile to compare an OS and a game though.

Shane

 

[frogpipe]

I once ran a customer service operation which revolved around real world hardware (as opposed to software), and I'm a user of TS12. I have very high expectations that are regularly disappointed by companies all over.

That being said, I can also understand where N3V is in the grand scheme of things. They aren't Microsoft, nor are they Electronic Arts, they are a smaller company serving a niche market. Frankly I'm somewhat in awe that they can survive given their product line. Not knocking "truck simulator" and the like, just being pragmatic, I wouldn't think there was enough of a market for a company to solely be doing these types of sims which appeal only to a small market.

I'm not trying to excuse their missteps and shortcomings, I'm simply asking all to consider where they are coming from and realize that they are most likely doing their level best to get done what needs to be done while trying to maintain a real business with payrolls, expenses, etc.

Does this mean "let em slide"? No. But it doesn't mean slapping them with Big Boy driver rod either.

My biggest issue with buying TS(next) will be that while the jury is still out, my belief in what the end product will really be is shaken by my experience. I feel like they made some really bad decisions regarding content. Flight Simulator 2004, when it came out did NOT have aircraft models in it from Flight Simulator 2002 or earlier, yet TS12 has content going back to TS2004 in some cases. I understand the conundrum, "people love this stuff, we can't possibly recreate it all in the modern specs, do we deny them it or let them have it even tho it will look a bit off?" I think the error on their part is that they should have provided better segregation of old content. Demanded the routes they built into TS12 have all TS12 (or TS10+) content. Something like that.

 

[kd7eirjim]

I completely appreciate where N3V is coming from in regards to financial resources. As I stated previously though, communication can go a very long way towards allying concerns of your customer base. It costs NOTHING to respond to concerns raised by your customers on your forum. And by this I do not mean the generic "Yeah, we know" responses that are typical here. Some real information, showing that the company actually has empathy for the issues that their customers are experiencing, is what is needed. And it's not good practice to wait several days before acknowledging the issues that are being raised, only then to say "We will let someone know", followed by "It's taking longer than we expected." How long did you expect it to take to resolve the issue? Why has it turned into a deeper issue than you initially anticipated? Acknowledge the issues that your product has, let your customers know what you are doing to resolve the issues, and keep them informed. That is not asking too much from any company, and normally what you get from a smaller company rather than a larger one.

And it's pathetically poor practice to throw the EULA at someone as an excuse for not fixing a known issue. That is plainly amateurish and says "We don't give a rat's behind about you or how you like our product, we got your money, now shut up." That single statement has done more to alienate me from any future purchases from N3V than anything else could have ever done. If that was Zec's goal, then he should let his boss know that he is meeting his goals and ask for a raise. I have always purchased any asset that I wanted directly from N3V when they had it in their store to help support them. Telling me that the EULA means you don't have to care about my concerns is a great way to send me and my money packing. I'm sure that Jointed Rail would prefer that I give my hard earned money directly to them.

I am taking great pains to stick with N3V, but they are making it harder each day.

 

[frogpipe]

I agree good communication is key, and often a failing. This was a big part of my job in the past. And it can be a tough spot to be in, especially when you AREN'T the one directing projects, or managing goals, and even worse if you can't go into the office of those who are and tap your foot - double if you are lateral to them in the corp chain of command.

I also think that to date, they have used the EULA in good faith. The clause referenced, "no right to updates", is there to protect them from someone like me coming back years later with my TS2004 and saying "Where's my update!?" to TS12. Meanwhile they have released progressive versions updating the program between Milestone releases, so I don't think we are getting abused there.

Regarding assets, I don't understand why (and maybe they are already) they don't rip all pre-TS2009 content out by the roots. I think if I were in charge of the matter I'd either ruthlessly overhaul the current DLS, or open a new one for TS12 that ONLY contained assets that met the standards of TS12 (which I think is v2.9 and up)

 

[kd7eirjim]

Regarding hosting providers not being able to handle what N3V requires, I can assure you that what N3V requires is small potatoes to any competent hosting provider. It may seem daunting from an outside perspective, but from a technological perspective, their requirements are plain vanilla. FTP servers with millions of unique items are common place, and forums with millions of hits per month are relatively common as well. Since N3V does not approach either of these thresholds, their requirements are simply routine in the competent hosting arena. Using a hosting provider that has been proven to use recycled hard drives rather than buying new ones is penny wise and pound foolish. Using a hosting provider with known database execution issues is just begging for trouble when your business is database intensive. Using a hosting provider that has known issues with routing security and DDOS prevention is just the same as hitting yourself with a hammer in the hand each morning - pure insanity. Using a hosting provider with known excessive packet loss is just beyond belief to me. I have suspicions as to why N3V is making these poor choices, but only they know for certain. If money is the reason, I can assure you that the money saved with these poor choices is not worth it, and is not really saving very much money either.

 

[kd7eirjim]

I agree good communication is key, and often a failing. This was a big part of my job in the past. And it can be a tough spot to be in, especially when you AREN'T the one directing projects, or managing goals, and even worse if you can't go into the office of those who are and tap your foot - double if you are lateral to them in the corp chain of command.

I also think that to date, they have used the EULA in good faith. The clause referenced, "no right to updates", is there to protect them from someone like me coming back years later with my TS2004 and saying "Where's my update!?" to TS12. Meanwhile they have released progressive versions updating the program between Milestone releases, so I don't think we are getting abused there.

Regarding assets, I don't understand why (and maybe they are already) they don't rip all pre-TS2009 content out by the roots. I think if I were in charge of the matter I'd either ruthlessly overhaul the current DLS, or open a new one for TS12 that ONLY contained assets that met the standards of TS12 (which I think is v2.9 and up)

I have no reason to think that N3V would actually use the EULA as a weasel clause to avoid fixing a known issue, but to use the EULA as a defense for not having fixed a known issue certainly puts that trust in jeopardy.

As for ripping out the old assets, that is a DIRT SIMPLE database query that would probably, given the number of assets on the DLS, complete in a single overnight cron job.

 

[Robert2d6]

I guess this complaining is just going to go on and on and on and on.. ....

 

[shaneturner12]

I have no reason to think that N3V would actually use the EULA as a weasel clause to avoid fixing a known issue, but to use the EULA as a defense for not having fixed a known issue certainly puts that trust in jeopardy.

As for ripping out the old assets, that is a DIRT SIMPLE database query that would probably, given the number of assets on the DLS, complete in a single overnight cron job.

What you may not realise is that ripping out the old assets will cause further problems down the line with missing dependencies. A lot of assets depend on old content (especially old built-in content).

Shane

 

[kd7eirjim]

I guess this complaining is just going to go on and on and on and on.. ....

No one is forcing you to read my topic. If open, honest discussion disturbs you, feel free to ignore this thread.

 

[kd7eirjim]

What you may not realise is that ripping out the old assets will cause further problems down the line with missing dependencies. A lot of assets depend on old content (especially old built-in content).

Shane

I can understand that, but there does come a time when a company has to make hard decisions as to how long they will allow the past to hinder the future. Apple made that hard decision when they switched to OS X and when they stopped supporting Power PC based applications. Microsoft made that decision when they stopped supporting Windows 3.x, 95, 98, ME, earlier versions of Office, etc. Intuit made that decision when they decided to "sunset" older versions of their accounting and tax software - you can see that this is not an original concept in the software arena. Will it anger some people? Of course it will - any decision will anger some people. Would the decision be in the best interests of N3V? Absolutely. The future of N3V is not in the people that have chosen not to upgrade since the versions prior to TS2009, the future of N3V is in selling newer, better, more capable versions of their software. They don't even have to alienate the people that choose not to upgrade - dedicate a server to the assets that work with the older versions, and use the new DLS for the current versions. That's called a win-win situation.