Plans for NYC subway routes never built

[jeffmorris]

Status Report:

IRT Nostrand Avenue extension: done, 1939 plan
IND Utica Avenue route: done, 1939 plan
IND Second Avenue route: done, 1939 plan
IND Concourse extension: done, 1929 plan
BMT Fourth Avenue to SIRW connection: done, Dual Contract plan
IRT Flushing route extension: started, 1939 plan
IND Hillside Avenue extension: not yet, 1939 plan
IND Fulton Street extension: not yet, 1939 plan
BMT Astoria route extension to Cross Island Blvd: not yet, 1929 plan

 

[Tokkyu40]

Wow You've been busy.
It sounds like you've sorted out the plans to your liking and you're making good progress.

Claude

 

[jeffmorris]

The IRT Flushing and IND Hillside Avenue extensions are done. I forgot to report that the SIRW North Shore and South Beach routes were done. There's a SIRW branch usually used for freight trains on the west side of Staten Island. That branch was converted to passenger service.

 

[jeffmorris]

I visited the SubChat forum and found a very long thread on 1948 plan for Second Avenue Subway. I found out that Robert Moses didn't allow NYC to build new subway routes. He "forced" NYC to build new highways. That bridge between Brooklyn and Staten Island was his idea. The traffic jams was his fault. Meanwhile, I got confused while making "plans" for the BMT Astoria route extension based on the 1929 plan. I think that highways like Long Island Expressway were not yet built. I think that the BMT Astoria route extension ran along the streets before those streets were ripped up for LIE. The route was to run along Ditmars Avenue, Astoria Avenue, 112th Street, and Nassau Blvd to Cross Island Blvd. Some streets were renamed and other streets were ripped up for LIE. Is Nassau Blvd now LIE?

 

[StorkNest]

For Staten Island, I suggest web searching for any of these.
Staten Island Railroad
Staten Island Railway
SIRR
And some sites regarding New York City and MTA have pics.

If you want to really go back to steam era, there were no bridges above or below tracks they were all grade crossings. Arlington was a small receiving yard from the bridge. From there, cars I believe got sorted for Howland Hook Marine Terminal, Proctor and Gamble (who are gone now), local customers including St. George yard with rail ferry access to Manhatten and Brooklyn, and the west side tracks that ended at the Con Edison plant and Visy Paper next door.

I've seen a few rare steam pics, most freight showed Also S-type switchers and I even found a couple of St. George pics with small steam engines once.

Currently, M&E whenever they get more money, is supposed to redo the line to Arlington yard and bring service back to Howland Hook for intermodal, currently they are able to service the Jersey tracks from Cranford Jct. interchange to Bayway refinery.

 

[jeffmorris]

I read in the newspaper that they're testing the lift bridge for trains between Staten Island and New Jersey. I think that they need to fix the bridge because the tracks didn't align properly. I knew that passenger service on the North Shore and South Beach routes were abandoned in 1950s. I don't know when freight train service was abandoned. I think that freight train service was abandoned when B&O RR (I think) sold or gave SIRW to MTA in 1970s.

 

[rick44]

I read in the newspaper that on March 29, the MTA is signing a contract for 333 million, to build the 2nd Avenue Subway.

 

[RooRocz]

This website has loads of useful info: http://www.forgotten-ny.com/

 

[Mxyzptlk22]

Have you looked at the "INDNOT" BAHN layout?

http://images.nycsubway.org/bahn/indnot.zip

 

[jeffmorris]

Mxyzptlk22, I got the "INDNOT" BAHN layout.

 

[tydev417]

I read in the newspaper that they're testing the lift bridge for trains between Staten Island and New Jersey. I think that they need to fix the bridge because the tracks didn't align properly. I knew that passenger service on the North Shore and South Beach routes were abandoned in 1950s. I don't know when freight train service was abandoned. I think that freight train service was abandoned when B&O RR (I think) sold or gave SIRW to MTA in 1970s.

Yeah, I read about it on SubChat. I remember seeing them testing a train on it back in Janurary.

The North Shore and South Beach Branches were abandoned in 1953. The MTA took over the B&O operations in 1971, and freight service continued on the North Shore Line until 1990 when the line became officially abandoned. By 1964, much of the South Beach branch was built over by the Verrazono, SIE, new roads and new houses.

And also, if you go the MTA's Capital Construction webpage, they stated that the Second Avenue Subway will be all local island platform stations. The only exception would be 72nd St Station which would have 2 island platforms and 3 tracks.

 

[jeffmorris]

I think that the Second Avenue route should have express/local service. Making that route local only may not work because people want to get there faster. I remember that when the "V" train route was started, people still ride "E" and "F" express trains instead of the "V" local trains. For my NYCTA subway system with routes that were planned but never built, I used the 1929 and 1939 plans for most of the new routes and expansions.

 

[jeffmorris]

The IND Rockaway Beach Blvd extension to 149th Street is done, 1929 plan
The IND Fulton Street extension is done, 1939 plan
Next: BMT Astoria route extension to Cross Island Blvd, 1929 plan
Next: IRT "7" route extension to the convention center at 34th Street and 11th Avenue, in planning stage

When NYC and MTA started making plans for new IRT South Ferry station to replace the old one on the loop, plans called for the new station to serve both the East Side and the West Side routes but they changed the plans so that the new station serves the West Side route only. The old station used to serve both routes but they had to abandon the platform on the inner loop when they had to retire the old pre-WWII subway cars. The side doors on those subway cars can be opened and closed independently. The side doors on post-WWII subway cars can't be opened and closed independently. For my subway route, I'll build the new station that serves both routes. Are there any other plans for new subway routes and expensions that I didn't know about?

 

[jeffmorris]

Here is the NYCTA subway system with routes and expansions that were planned but not built. Any suggestions for expansion in Staten Island?

 

[StorkNest]

OK Jeff, I finally got most of my former links back. Where have you gotten SIRT info from so far? I don't want to repeat something you have. I have several links showing pictures from various eras.
Pictures of steam locos.
Pics from the days of grade crossings.
A few pics showing how they kept the line running while eliminating grade crossings.
At least one pic of the Wentworth station on the South Beach line, notable for being only long enough to accomidate 1 door on a car.
Yes, some pics from the South Beach line too.
Pics when the LIRR cars were used.
One place with a pic of the St. George freight yard where the current ballpark stand.
One place with a SI map of the proposed extension of the Brooklyn R line being extended through a tunnel into SI.

What do you need?

Oh and I know the Morristown & Erie ran trains from Cranford Junction in NJ to Bayway for the refineries, now it looks like they got the bridge working from the second story down here:
http://www.statenislandusa.com/
Also, if your go to the Newsroom link from that site, there is a big PDF in the left side showing a study done of the former North Shore line and options for reopening it, including locations of former stations and propsed new ones plus other option besides heavy rail like the current SIRT line.
As to the South Shore, you could consider having it be fictionally still in operation, justified by the revitilization of the South Beach boardwalk and parks.

 

[tydev417]

Here is the NYCTA subway system with routes and expansions that were planned but not built. Any suggestions for expansion in Staten Island?

Since the new South Ferry Terminal (1) is going to be about the same depth as Whitehall St Station (R/W/N), you should make it so that South Ferry station on your NYCTA map is a wide single 2-tracked island platform rather than a 4-track two island platform station as it is now. And to add to the South Ferry station, you should make it deeper as well so that the original South Ferry loop station can still lie above it so that the (5) trains can still loop back around to the Lex lines. And then have a junction just outside of Rector St (1) Station with the original tracks swinging left towards the loop while a new set of tracks should dive down to the new island platform.

About the extension though, the (1) should then continue at it's low depth under the New York Harbor towards St. George where it would have a deep-level island platform station. After that, the line would swing left to Victory Blvd and Bay St where it would terminate with a 3-track, 2-island platform station!

 

[jeffmorris]

tydev417, I think that the original plan was for the new South Ferry
station to serve trains on both West Side and East Side routes but MTA changed the plan so that the station will serve trains on West Side route only because they don't have enough money for a bigger station. A tunnel between Staten Island and Manhattan would not be built because it would be very expensive. I went with the original BMT plan of linking the BMT 4th Avenue route with the SIRW.

 

[firemanMRP]

NYC subway routes

Hi Jeff and I learn it a long time ago first the NYCTA had money and then did not and when the MTA took over they had no money but guess were it went not yours or mine it went in there pockets Mario