Permissions and licenses

[leeferr]

IMHO, what Ben says is correct.

We seem to complicate the problem with commercial Intellectual Property and Copyright laws.

Since Trainz is a niche product compared to global commercial property it may take a little thinking outside the box.

My suggestion for Trainz copyright regulation is:

1 Mandatory date input in the config file as a "creation date"

2 N3V agrees to a "limited" time for copyright protection of this property...say..... 7 years (more or less)

3 If the creator does not reply to a permission request or has NOT been active for 7 years, the copyright expires.

4 I suggest 7 years, but others may have different opinions about this

Just my thoughts about this, nothing more, nothing less.

Regards,
Ron

A reasonable approach, but the problem is that N3V doesn't control the copyrights and they certainly wouldn't have control over 3rd party site content. It's well established that any clause in a contract that is contrary to established law is unenforceable. I've seen this happen way too many times. As much as we'd like to have access to content where the creator has left the community, the creator still owns that content. It would be helpful if a creator would release his copyright if he/she decides to leave the community, but unless they specifically do so, it's still theirs. As mentioned before, I'd like to see a central repository for meshes and content that has been released, but again, where would it be and who would pay to maintain it?

Mike

 

[mjolnir]

Mike and others,

My information comes from page 7, of circular 1, (<http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf>) published by the US copyright office, which reads, in relevant part (and which can be quoted, as the circular itself is in the public domain in the US):

Copyright Registration
In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended
to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright.
However, registration is not a condition of copyright
protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for
protection, the copyright law provides several inducements
or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration.
Among these advantages are the following:
• Registration establishes a public record of the copyright
claim.
• Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration
is necessary for works of U. S. origin. [Empahsis added]

BTW, at present, the cheapest filing fee for a registering a copyright in the US is $35.00 US. If you feel your copyright is infringed, and seek redress in the US court system, the second hour of time of the attorney you hire to represent you is probably upwards from $250.00 US, and pursuit of the case to trial is probably going to require at least a trial retainer fee of $50,000 US.

As to BenDorsey's pondering what to do with meshes, this is a bit harder. However, since his meshes are in GMAX, if it were me, I'd contribute the meshes as free content to the Turbosquid site. It appears to me from the site that Turbosuid might also be a good place for the repository of 3D max meshes, and there is a blender repository, where meshes using that product could be uploaded. In Bendorsey's case, given the number of Bridges I've seen carrying his name, perhaps a college of engineering might welcome his collection for part of their library.

To paraphrase the old conundrum about trees in the forest, "IF a copyright exists on an object, but no one enforces the copyright, or the copyright is deemed unenforceable, is there still a copyright?" The practical matter about copyright is, given the costs of enforcement actions in the US legal systems, very, very few, if any, pieces of Trainz content are going to be worth enforcing the copyright. In the US, if it's not registered, it's not enforceable anyway.

It would to me, that except for licenses from entities outside the trainz community, such as those required in the US by CSX and UP, that the issue of copyright can pretty much be a matter of common sense. If a deceased or departed member of the community was free with the use of his meshes and other items during his period of participation, then it can pretty well be assumed that he would have continued to be the same way. If the member took the time and effort to apply restrictions, then accept and abide by those restrictions. The fact is, creation of content is, on the whole, as inexpensive an endeavor as one chooses to make it, and there is a technological component to some of these things, anyway. In ten years, the advancement of hardware and software technology will make it so that a mesh made brand new, and pushing the envelope of TS2012 will be blasé and dated, and perhaps contain sufficient flaws that it is better to create a new mesh, anyway.

ns

 

[bendorsey]

One application of a mesh archive is it would give folks who wish to change it or use it as a starting point for something similar a place to start other then from scratch. Some of my meshes are gigantic. I have 2 or 3 in the 500,000 poly range and the Tay River Bridge is over 750,000 (its over 15,000 ft long). That could save one heck of a lot of work.

Ben

 

[mjolnir]

Another value of a mesh archive is that even if a future creator wishes not to use a mesh exactly, it provides a mechanism for answering the question, "Now just how was that done?".

I don't mind a mesh archive, and I don't have any problem with N3V administering it, except for some concerns about persistence. Has the question ever been addressed about what would happen to the DLS if N3V decided to exit Trainz?

ns

 

[leeferr]

It would feel like "Go to Jail, Do not Pass Go, Do not collect $200"

 

[shaneturner12]

Strange you would say that - I'm currently playing the game where that appears.

I still think though that copyright law makes it very difficult in times when the original creator is uncontactable. There really needs to be a fallback method when this happens.

Shane

 

[leeferr]

Strange you would say that - I'm currently playing the game where that appears.

I still think though that copyright law makes it very difficult in times when the original creator is uncontactable. There really needs to be a fallback method when this happens.

Shane

clairvoyance maybe?:hehe:

 

[shaneturner12]

Good one there.

I've seen several instances where the creator has left the Trainz scene, and does not respond to emails.

I always thought that even past users should at least respond to emails even if they are not able or willing to do anything about it.

Shane

 

[leeferr]

Good one there.

I've seen several instances where the creator has left the Trainz scene, and does not respond to emails.

I always thought that even past users should at least respond to emails even if they are not able or willing to do anything about it.

Shane

That's true, but sometimes, the exited creator has changed their email address which makes finding them almost impossible. Auran's Art Creation Discs were great in showing how some things were done. I think that it would be great to have a repository of copyright released content that a content creator could have a look at and have that light bulb come on "So that's how it's done". It was also great when Auran had a printable CCG, but I find the Wiki so cumbersome and difficult to search that it's pretty much useless to me, especially when you find the topic that you're interested in and there's nothing there. It's just sitting there waiting for some kind soul to fill in the blanks. Not much help to creators trying to find out how to do something.

Mike

 

[shaneturner12]

I've found that as well.

If I remember correctly, changing email address without updating the one on the Auran/N3V profile would consitute having an invalid email address, which would break rule 2 of the Code of Conduct.

I can understand a user not responding to an email if they are 'no longer with us' (you can probably work out what I mean there)

At least the good thing with the Wiki though, like Wikipedia, it can be edited to add more information.

Shane

 

[bendorsey]

What if Auran/N3V setup a data base (text only) where content creators could spell out thier intentions as to copyright if and when they pass away or are inactive for 7 years? Folks could chose to retain copyright indefinately (or whatever the law says), transfer them to someone else, eliminate the copyright and make them free to all, or some other arangement.

In my case I would relinquish all copyright and make them free to anyone for whatever use they wish. No one in my family would have the slightest idea what they were or what to do with them, they generate zero income (and never will) so why retain the copyright?

Ben

 

[leeferr]

At least the good thing with the Wiki though, like Wikipedia, it can be edited to add more information.

That's true, but we're dependent on someone taking the time to do it, and it has to be someone with the knowledge. I've found some Wikis with bogus information because just anyone can edit it. I can understand why N3V has resorted to using a wiki, but it's so incomplete that I find it rather disheartening to spend time searching and when I finally land on the page that I want, it's incomplete. I feel like I've just wasted my time. If you really want to know how to do something, come to the forums. That's where you'll find the real help.

Mike

 

[shaneturner12]

Sounds very reasonable to me - at least we would know where we stand when issues crop up regarding users who have not been around for some time.

Shane

 

[shaneturner12]

Too true.

If anything, the forums has an ability that a wiki does not - the ability to ask a question, and get several answers with the ability for the original poster to state whether the given answers work or not.

Shane

 

[leeferr]

Ben
That's a great idea. At least it's a start. I would love to also see a repository for meshes though. I've got quite a few that I'd release if there was such a place. They may not be of any help to anyone, but I think some of the animated ones might be. I'd even be willing to allow N3V to package some of them up in a new set of Art Creation Discs.

Mike

 

[leeferr]

Pertaining to Ben's line of thought. Perhaps N3V could add a field in a user's Public Profile where the user could establish their policy or desires regarding copyright and/or permissions to their content.

Mike

 

[NikkiA]

What if Auran/N3V setup a data base (text only) where content creators could spell out thier intentions as to copyright if and when they pass away or are inactive for 7 years? Folks could chose to retain copyright indefinately (or whatever the law says), transfer them to someone else, eliminate the copyright and make them free to all, or some other arangement.

In my case I would relinquish all copyright and make them free to anyone for whatever use they wish. No one in my family would have the slightest idea what they were or what to do with them, they generate zero income (and never will) so why retain the copyright?

Ben

I don't think N3V would want to get involved, legally it wouldn't be binding, and would be inviting legal trouble should someone act upon it in a situation whereby a creator dies and their estate then decides they want to monetize the creator's assets.

Plus, it would be a quagmire given the different standards for Wills around the world (and lets not kid ourselves here, a Will is exactly what we're talking about), some require it to be notarised, some don't, some require that the Will be written up by a lawyer and signed by the Testator, some just require you write it and sign it...

While it could be done with good intentions, legally N3V would likely be held responsible if it were used as an excuse to breech copyright. I can't imagine any sane corporate lawyer giving the idea the OK.

 

[leeferr]

Why wouldn't it work. It should be as legally binding as the EULA is that we all agree to when we upload content to the DLS. If the creator has expressed his desires regarding his copyright, then some might take issue with it, but I'm not sure there's enough financal incentive for anyone to legally contest the desire of creator.

Mike

 

[mjolnir]

I still think though that copyright law makes it very difficult in times when the original creator is uncontactable.

Well, it turns out that this is a sufficiently significant issue that there's actually a name for it. These are "orphan copyrights", that is a situation where a copyright technically exists, but there is no one to enforce it.

I have to say, though, in my opinion it's not really much of a practical issue. Yes, I know there are a few things that warrant upgrading, but the fact is that the advancement of technology, both hardware and software, and the state of the art in content creation, usually create the situation where the user is better off creating brand new versions inspired by old content, instead of updating the old content so it will work in current versions.

ns

 

[shaneturner12]

Sounds reasonable, but there is still an issue with certain items especially if the creator requires that assets are aliased to a particular asset (the UK Class 90s on the DLS are a good example of this)

Shane